[Androgeos Exeunt]

Look: It may be a computer game, but think realistically. You CAN FRED a Colossus to have BFGreens on all its 62 turrets, but in real life, there is no way for even the Colossus to supply that much power to 62 beam turrets.

It took 20 years for the GTVA to build a single Colossus. Should the GTVA continue attempting to build supercapital ships, it would take them less time, albeit about 10 to 15 years.

The Colossus was never designed to take on juggernauts. It was a destroyer-killer, and given this purpose, it succeeds greatly. It wasn't a complete success, though (if its Fighterbay can be damaged, it isn't that good a warship). It still needs fighter cover in some aspects. When its hull goes critical, there had better be some friendly fighters around to protect it. In my incomplete remake of Their Finest Hour, I saw the following:

1. Sathanas jumps in, beams the Colossus down to 6% hull integrity;
2. Bombers disarm Sathanas' beam cannons;
3. Memphis jumps in from rear of Sathanas, takes ten minutes to destroy it;
4. Nephilims get sent out the moment Memphis jumps in, most of them make a beeline for the Colossus;
5. Nephilims bombard Colossus to oblivion because there was no fighter cover.

There we go. One of the underlying weaknesses of the Colossus is that it needs some fighter cover against waves of bombers that come in groups of three. In addition, because it is so large, it moves fairly slowly (although the Leviathan's even slower). Thirdly, if the Colossus takes 20% damage, it would take "months" to fully repair its hull. Finally, if the Colossus is put out of action (as seen in High Noon), it would be mostly useless to the GTVA.

[TrashMan]

Was that answer directed at me?

Couse I wasn't saying a colossus with 100 beam turrets.

I was saying 100 smaller ships that are nothing more than a high-powered beam cannon, 2 AAF's and a engine glued together.

[Androgeos Exeunt]

That would cost just as much as the Colossus itself (engine and reactor costs; Colossus has <100 engines and definitely <100 reactors).

[Hades]

Colossus has like 14 engines not 100.
It probably doesn't have 100 reactors either.

[Agent_Koopa]

That sign means "less than", Hades.

[Snail]

I was saying 100 smaller ships that are nothing more than a high-powered beam cannon, 2 AAF's and a engine glued together.

That would be very expensive IMO. The reason the Mjolnirs weren't deployed at every Node is that they cost as much as say, building a cruiser or corvette. Think about it. It's only slightly larger than a bomber but it has a beam cannon that is more powerful than a BGreen. They're probably super-expensive and they can't be mass-produced and it just wasn't feasible to make more.

[S-99]

As long as bombers are being made without turrets. Why not just make bombers the a beam turret with heavy shielding, engines, cockpit, and bomb bays. Then you could easily come up with something the same size as an ursa if not smaller with the same speed of an ursa. What you'd have is something highly damaging, and possibly cheap? Or instead of fashioning a bomber after a full size anti-cap beam, you could do a bomber centered around a AAA beam. Those do hurt capships too.

If you  had a bomber like this you'd probably want to make a bomber centered around taurvi likeness. Treat the AAA beam as a secondary, and have ****ty ass primary weapons.

[castor]

That would cost just as much as the Colossus itself (engine and reactor costs; Colossus has <100 engines and definitely <100 reactors).

Yes, but they all can not be destroyed in 10 seconds. Which is the point.

[Snail]

Small but heavily-armed ships are the way to go IMO. No more superjugs for the GTVA.

[S-99]

Perhaps if the gtva did waht the shivans do, make incredibly powerful forward facing weapons with the rest of the ship having weak subsystems and little to no anti-fighter suppression.

Perhaps this is one reason the shivans have so many ships because they may be actually cheaper to produce than terran/vasudan ships? Terran and vasudan ships already have superior defences and design compared to shivan ships. I would say that the shivans spent a lot of extra time making their beams ridiculously good. The gtva should never switch to the shivan model of building capships, it wouldn't be good at all. Terran/vasudan ships are tough nuts to crack. I wouldn't say give terran/vasudan ships beams just as good as shivans beams. I would say based on how much more advanced that terran and vasudan capships are compared to shivan ships, that terran/vasudan ships should be given beams that are more effective against shivan warships, that would be a nice balancing maneuver.

[Snail]

Mimicking the Shivans with assault-only ships is a recipe for destruction. First, you can't make nearly as many as the Shivans, so you can't use their own tactics against them (brute force and sheer numbers). Second, you can't do normal tactics with assault-only ships; the only thing you can do is surprise attacks, which definitely isn't a good choice as the GTVA would be on the defense should the Sathanes or a larger force decide to attack the GTVA directly.

And about the Shivan ships being cheaper to produce. I think the Shivans have some advanced way of making their ships. Their ships could be slightly organic or something, which means that they can easily create things. Or they could have some kind of uber-workforce that doesn't need food or sleep or pay or anything. I doubt the GTVA would ever be able to match the Shivan's construction speed.

[Koth]

No more superjugs for the GTVA.

Inferno there art thou?

[Snail]

Technically, the GTVA never builds superjugs in Inferno. Only the EA and their Icanus.

[Koth]

Yes but the Uber Ship of DOOM^TM theme is VERY prevalent in Inferno.

[S-99]

Which is why the gtva should never do that. Make more powerful beams with their awesome designs. I was just mentioning some of the simplicity of the shivan horde ships. If the gtva were to adopt the shivans simplicity, they would be able to build **** faster, but of course never top the shivans or come close to them, but simply be able build faster. The gtva will stick with it's more effective design.

The problem with the shivans numbers is their disposability. Some day the terrans will make a super duper invincible fighter with a beam piloted by the ever restless and obsessed alpha guarding a node with all of the shivans pooring at him until no more exist.

[Snail]

Yes but the Uber Ship of DOOM^TM theme is VERY prevalent in Inferno.

You're the one who brought up the whole Inferno issue. Nobody here said Inferno until you did.

Which is why the gtva should never do that. Make more powerful beams with their awesome designs. I was just mentioning some of the simplicity of the shivan horde ships. If the gtva were to adopt the shivans simplicity, they would be able to build **** faster, but of course never top the shivans or come close to them, but simply be able build faster. The gtva will stick with it's more effective design.

More advanced and smaller ships are the way to go for the GTVA. We should not go for swarming ships, and we should not go for superjuggernauts either.

[Koth]

Yes but the Uber Ship of DOOM^TM theme is VERY prevalent in Inferno.

You're the one who brought up the whole Inferno issue. Nobody here said Inferno until you did.

I reacted to your comment, nothing more.

[mr.WHO]

From what I know Inferno GTVA don't have a super ships of DOOOOM  (exept a secret, unconfirmed Vasudan Juggernaut).   After Collosuss failure Inferno GTVA focused on building a few super destroyers (and a few super carriers) than one Juggernaut - it's what they should do in FS2 from the begining.

Super destroyer Odin is cheaper, smaller, more flexible, and have similar forward firepower to a colossus (overall, Odin has less beam firepower than Colly but better placed). It has a large hangar bay but in majority, they have an enormous fighter/bomber support from Warlock super carrier (that won't operate in ship to ship battles, as opposite to Collosus).

So you lost Odin, you still have fighter/bombers.
You lost Warlock, you still have a serious anticap firepower, and some fighter/bombers
You lost Collosus, you don't have anything.

[TrashMan]

I was saying 100 smaller ships that are nothing more than a high-powered beam cannon, 2 AAF's and a engine glued together.

That would be very expensive IMO. The reason the Mjolnirs weren't deployed at every Node is that they cost as much as say, building a cruiser or corvette. Think about it. It's only slightly larger than a bomber but it has a beam cannon that is more powerful than a BGreen. They're probably super-expensive and they can't be mass-produced and it just wasn't feasible to make more.

Bull***. They were new, thats why they weren't deployed everywhere.

How can they be that expensive? A corvette has 4 beam cannons, multiple engines, scores of other turrets, large hull and crew costs.

So how can a automated ship with only 1 cannon and 2 small turrets and no crew be MORE expensive? Put some good beam on it (doesn't matter which, as long as its' good) and attack.

As long as bombers are being made without turrets. Why not just make bombers the a beam turret with heavy shielding, engines, cockpit, and bomb bays. Then you could easily come up with something the same size as an ursa if not smaller with the same speed of an ursa. What you'd have is something highly damaging, and possibly cheap? Or instead of fashioning a bomber after a full size anti-cap beam, you could do a bomber centered around a AAA beam. Those do hurt capships too.

If you  had a bomber like this you'd probably want to make a bomber centered around taurvi likeness. Treat the AAA beam as a secondary, and have ****ty ass primary weapons.

Bombers and bombs have several disadvantages:
- they can be intercepted. Beams can't
- bombs and bombers are SLOW..heck the ship can jump out between the time a bomb is launched and it hits the hull. Beams are insta-hit.
- bombs aren't reusable (and every bomb costs), a beam canon can fire again and again

[Snail]

Why not build a ****ing Deimos with 2305982390537895738295739032905739054390523905723 Mjolnir beams on it then?