[Splinter]

I don't think Israel want to give the land back. They gave Gaza back but continued settling the West Bank.

I believe, again based on past precedent, that Israel will give away everything and anything for peace but at the same time they are not stupid and enemies that continue to seek her destruction get nowhere.

For example the Gaza strip was given back. The Sinai was given back. 200 to 1 ratios of returning terrorist prisoners just to get the dismembered remains of our dead soldiers back.

Yahweh told them it was their land by divine right, so no, some of those people just won't give the west bank back...

Those are the settlers and the public opinion, and mine, is that once the Palestinian attacks end and we broker a peace agreement we won't mess with the settlers if they want to continue to live there but under Palestinian rule they can go ahead they can die fighting their own war but don't cost Israel any more of it's sons and daughters.

I think they want the land. Strategicly, they want all the land with lakes and rivers in their possession.

Strategically we could care less about the land since Jordan is our most peaceful neighbor. As for lakes and rivers the only lake there is the dead sea which I'm sorry doesn't produce much drinking water. The Sea of Galilee isn't in the West Bank  and there are no rivers that aren't simply tributaries of the Jordan River in the West Bank and Israel would still have access to the Jordan River above where the West Bank starts. As for aquifers of the 12 in the West Bank only 4 don't reach Israel. So basically water has nothing to do with it.

And weren't you the one telling a bit earlier how the West Bank is now peaceful and if only the people in Gaza could "behave" like that? Well, if the west bank is so peaceful now, why is it still occupied?

The reason it's still occupied is you need someone to give it back to. There is no one in charge right now sure Fatah is there but there is no stability it's not an instantaneous thing give me a break. And by the way in case you didn't read a terrorist entered a settlement in the West Bank a few days ago it was easy access because this settlement refused to put of fences because they were one of the ones that tried to live in peace with the Pals (unlike most the settlements who instigate violence) but they paid for it because a terrorist came in with an ax and dismembered a 14 year old boy and hit a 7 year old boy on the head with the ax before being spotted and running away. The 7 year old survived... and you know what the army did? Because this was a relatively isolated incident and because the government most in charge in the West Bank didn't instigate this and send him out and try and get others to cause more harm to civilians (like Hamas does) The IDF deployed to keep the Settlers from reacting.

And, unfortunately for you, I don't believe in such a thing as a "legal" occupation.

Why is it unfortunate with me that you don't believe in legal occupation? Are you someone of influence in this matter? It really doesn't affect any thing to do with anything I could think of ever having anything to do with. I would think it would be unfortunate for you since you can't change the situation.

What nations signed these with what news agencies? What repercussions? Any evidence that this kind of ban can be enforced on anyone but the local news outlets?

You misunderstand. Barring any evidence to the contrary I don't believe you in this matter and I want you to show me that it does happen. A news article like “Today CNN signed a media agreement on the content of their broadcasts in Iraq. This to keep soldiers protected from the enemies gathering information inadvertently revealed in live broadcasts.”

Something, anything.

Not aid, but other stuff. All of their industrial and manufacturing buildings are ruins. They can't really produce pretty much anything. Even the mill is destroyed. They have to import from Israel.

But they don't import from Israel. They are sent aid from Israel. They have no trade agreement with Israel this is not an import export deal. They are given all this stuff. It's aid, it's free. Whenever we destroy a factory or a mill Israel must pay the price to provide whatever it was that building was for. (Israel doesn't send building materials such as plumbing and electrical and concrete because such things can and have been used to make bombs and weapons.)

Well lets look at it this way. If you have any proof that your stance on distrusting Israeli sources is based on anything but rumors and bias you have yet to proffer any evidence. And one would think that since you are a pretty smart person you would use all and any advantage you had to argue your point. So if you had proof or past president of Israel doing the same kind of propaganda and lies about what goes on here as I have already shown the Palestinians doing then why don't you produce it?

Bah. I have been checking the links you posted. A vast majority of them are Israeli sites and sources. The rest are some youTube articles. As far as proof goes, all of that has little no no worth.
I could if I wanted to post links to you tube vids of IDF soldiers misbehaving or various new articles that tel la different story. But what's the poitn? Heck, I don't belive half of them, so why should you in any one? Not to mention that I don't really care much about why you think I should do.

B.t.w. - my goal is not to "win", since no victory is possible here, neither for you or for me.

This is not about who misbehaves and who did what. This is about showing that what a people said and what they did are two different things. That they influenced a story to benefit them with a  complete fabrication of the truth. Let's remember the AP photo of the destruction in Lebanon. The public outrage at the “massacre” in Jenin. The Ambulance that was shelled in Lebanon. The aid worker posing with the same corpse of a child in different locations in Lebanon. The photo that started the second intifada. The school that never had any terrorists in or around it. The mosques that are places of worship and are sacred and it not allowed to have weapons there. Etc etc etc...

Get it? You don't need to care what I think you should do but you care about convincing me I'm wrong or you wouldn't be debating. Well the best way to do that is provide evidence sources articles. See what is different about all those things I just listed is even the new outlets that at first condemned Israel for all those things later admitted they were wrong. So it's not just Israel said and everyone else still believes the original story. It's that it was proven to even the most anti Israel sentimented new agencies that these were fabrications in a smear campaign.

No you wouldn't. And you know it.

Regular Sherlock Holmes.

It's a saying buddy and it's you who should love to prove me wrong. So why haven't you?

[TrashMan]

So..... You would have them be a good little country and get shot at without doing anything about it?  I personally would lose respect for any nation that would not prevent harm to its own citizens like that.

There is a big gap between doing nothing and going apes*** insane. Not to mention a whole spectrum of options inside that gap.

[Janos]

I don't think Israel want to give the land back. They gave Gaza back but continued settling the West Bank.

I believe, again based on past precedent, that Israel will give away everything and anything for peace but at the same time they are not stupid and enemies that continue to seek her destruction get nowhere.

jesus christ you are ignorant

edit: the rest of your post really doesn't offer anything else

[karajorma]

Let's avoid the name calling. If you feel his argument is deeply flawed, prove it.

[Janos]

I don't think Israel want to give the land back. They gave Gaza back but continued settling the West Bank.

I believe, again based on past precedent, that Israel will give away everything and anything for peace but at the same time they are not stupid and enemies that continue to seek her destruction get nowhere.

Give away anything and everything? When has Israel really done such a thing? What are you basing this on?

For example the Gaza strip was given back. The Sinai was given back. 200 to 1 ratios of returning terrorist prisoners just to get the dismembered remains of our dead soldiers back.

Oh now you are just distorting the history. You don't remember that Israel has been blockading and attacking Gaza for all the 2000s, and that there have been thousands of casualties on that strip even before the 2008 war. You seem to forget that the withdrawal from the West Bank is a sham, and that they are actually just slowly nipping away at water reserves and settlements. You seem to forget that Golan Heights are still under Israeli control, and they have been actively settling that area. You seem to forget that Gaza strip is actually still blockaded - you seem to forget that Israelis are actively removing Arab parties from their politics. Etc. etc.

Shortly put: you are lying.

Those are the settlers and the public opinion, and mine, is that once the Palestinian attacks end and we broker a peace agreement we won't mess with the settlers if they want to continue to live there but under Palestinian rule they can go ahead they can die fighting their own war but don't cost Israel any more of it's sons and daughters.

One of the reasons the Palestinians are pissed off are the settlers. This reasoning borders on insane.

Strategically we could care less about the land since Jordan is our most peaceful neighbor. As for lakes and rivers the only lake there is the dead sea which I'm sorry doesn't produce much drinking water. The Sea of Galilee isn't in the West Bank  and there are no rivers that aren't simply tributaries of the Jordan River in the West Bank and Israel would still have access to the Jordan River above where the West Bank starts. As for aquifers of the 12 in the West Bank only 4 don't reach Israel. So basically water has nothing to do with it.

hmmmm

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20060626/taamallah

hmmm i also wonder why Israel demanded on controlling the West Bank water

The reason it's still occupied is you need someone to give it back to.

You had the PLO! What happened to them? You had the PLO, you had the Fatah, soon you'll have the Hamas there as well - you can't pull this ****, this is just unbeliavable. West Bank's control is nominally in PA hands, but the problem is the huge grey zone and Israeli creep in form of security fences, settlements and so on.

There is no one in charge right now sure Fatah is there but there is no stability it's not an instantaneous thing give me a break.

Yes, the occupation and settlements sure don't have any role in destabilizing the West Bank, noooo, I mean it's the Palestinians, it's them for the last 30 years yeah.

And by the way in case you didn't read a terrorist entered a settlement in the West Bank a few days ago it was easy access because this settlement refused to put of fences because they were one of the ones that tried to live in peace with the Pals (unlike most the settlements who instigate violence) but they paid for it because a terrorist came in with an ax and dismembered a 14 year old boy and hit a 7 year old boy on the head with the ax before being spotted and running away. The 7 year old survived... and you know what the army did? Because this was a relatively isolated incident and because the government most in charge in the West Bank didn't instigate this and send him out and try and get others to cause more harm to civilians (like Hamas does) The IDF deployed to keep the Settlers from reacting.

source

Not aid, but other stuff. All of their industrial and manufacturing buildings are ruins. They can't really produce pretty much anything. Even the mill is destroyed. They have to import from Israel.

But they don't import from Israel. They are sent aid from Israel. They have no trade agreement with Israel this is not an import export deal. They are given all this stuff. It's aid, it's free. Whenever we destroy a factory or a mill Israel must pay the price to provide whatever it was that building was for. (Israel doesn't send building materials such as plumbing and electrical and concrete because such things can and have been used to make bombs and weapons.)

Israel has been actively blocking human aid from outside the Israel to Gaza.

What did you say again?

Oh they didn't import anything from Israel?

Assam Abu Taha, a wholesaler in the Gaza town of Rafah, said Gazans don't want handouts.

"When the borders are open, and everyone can work freely, we don't need aid," said Abu Taha, 48, whose flour imports from Israel dropped from 200 tons a day to 80 tons a week. "The situation will improve dramatically.

LINK: HAARETZ http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1067796.html

You are lying.

I will not waste any more time for someone who is obviously willing to lie the **** out of him on an internet discussion board and I seriously hope you'll be monkeyed for this kind of crap. You are a disgrace to this forum.

[Liberator]

The reason it's still occupied is you need someone to give it back to.

You had the PLO! What happened to them? You had the PLO, you had the Fatah, soon you'll have the Hamas there as well - you can't pull this ****, this is just unbeliavable.

All of which are known terrorist organizations or know promoters there of.  They are not, nor should they be considered to be, legitimate governments or proto-goverments.

Janos, let's remember that we are talking about people whose idea of warfare is to decapitate and dismember people, then broadcast it on the nightly news shouting and praising they're god.  These are not civilized people who you can reason with and deal with fairly.  No deal you strike with them can be considered binding because they don't recognize you or anyone else that does not adhere to they're perverse religion with equal or greater fervor.

In short, until there is a Palestinian organization whose express purpose is not the eradication of Israel, her people and supporters, my suggestion is to glass the area until it looks like the No Man's Land is it in practice if not effect.  Then pave it over and build hotels for the supplicants making they're pilgrimage to the Holy Land.

[TrashMan]

All of which are known terrorist organizations or know promoters there of.  They are not, nor should they be considered to be, legitimate governments or proto-goverments.

Luckily, that's not for you to decide.
Hamas have been elected by the people so that makes them legitimate. It doesn't matter how much you think their policy sucks.

In short, until there is a Palestinian organization whose express purpose is not the eradication of Israel, her people and supporters, my suggestion is to glass the area until it looks like the No Man's Land is it in practice if not effect.  Then pave it over and build hotels for the supplicants making they're pilgrimage to the Holy Land.

"Until the government of the other country is to my linking, preferably just puppets under our control,  we should glass the country."

I don't like your countries government. Mind if I bomb your house?

[Janos]

The reason it's still occupied is you need someone to give it back to.

You had the PLO! What happened to them? You had the PLO, you had the Fatah, soon you'll have the Hamas there as well - you can't pull this ****, this is just unbeliavable.

All of which are known terrorist organizations or know promoters there of.  They are not, nor should they be considered to be, legitimate governments or proto-goverments.

Who designated them as so, and does that designation in fact nullify their legitimacy?

Oh by the way Fatah is not a terrorist organization so hmm, maybe your talking point does, in fact, suck and be blatantly false. Maybe I should call you a liar as well, because you cannot even do basic fact research before posting. But I won't. Take it as you will.

Janos, let's remember that we are talking about people whose idea of warfare is to decapitate and dismember people, then broadcast it on the nightly news shouting and praising they're god.  These are not civilized people who you can reason with and deal with fairly.  No deal you strike with them can be considered binding because they don't recognize you or anyone else that does not adhere to they're perverse religion with equal or greater fervor.

jesus christ you are completely insane

"THEY ARE EVIL. THEREFORE : NO NEGOTIATION."

In short, until there is a Palestinian organization whose express purpose is not the eradication of Israel, her people and supporters, my suggestion is to glass the area until it looks like the No Man's Land is it in practice if not effect.  Then pave it over and build hotels for the supplicants making they're pilgrimage to the Holy Land.

... like PLO? oh i forgot you don't even know your basic facts about the different organizations involved in this conflict - you think that Fatah, PLO, Jihad, Hamas etc. are pretty much the same thing.

Or maybe you are just an abhorrent human being for proposing something like this.

[Splinter]

jesus christ you are ignorant
edit: the rest of your post really doesn't offer anything else

Aren't you a pleasant fella.

Give away anything and everything? When has Israel really done such a thing? What are you basing this on?

The very next quote you have is the answer to this question.

Oh now you are just distorting the history. You don't remember that Israel has been blockading and attacking Gaza for all the 2000s, and that there have been thousands of casualties on that strip even before the 2008 war. You seem to forget that the withdrawal from the West Bank is a sham, and that they are actually just slowly nipping away at water reserves and settlements. You seem to forget that Golan Heights are still under Israeli control, and they have been actively settling that area. You seem to forget that Gaza strip is actually still blockaded - you seem to forget that Israelis are actively removing Arab parties from their politics. Etc. etc.
Shortly put: you are lying.

What history did I distort? I was talking about how for the chance of peace Israel has proven she will give almost anything and I said Israel gave back the Gaza strip and you start talking about what it did up until that point. I simply can't follow your train of thought I'm sorry.

What withdrawal from the West Bank?

Golan hieghts are a key strategic emplacement that has been used several time to launch attacks on Israel and considering the nation that it used to belong too still seeks the destruction of Israel I see no reason to give back what they lost in a war they started. Tough luck.

Gaza is blockaded against the thousands of tons of weapons that are being shipped in there or do you think we should simply allow them to get all those rockets from Iran. You know the ones. The ones they said they would use to hit Te-Aviv? Yeah you can put your city your people your family on the chopping block but you can't ask anyone else to do the same because of some false sense of moral superiority.

And you claim that Israel has been blockading the Gaza strip for all the 2000's? Yet Hamas seem to disagree with you. They wanted Israel to restore the influx of trucks and shipments into the Gaza strip back to 2005 levels which was between 500-600 trucks a day.

Is the West Bank blockaded? Hmm why not? Could it be they aren't actively seeking weapons to strike at Israel with? Gosh darn who would have thought a nation would try and stop it's enemies from acquiring weapons that they swore to use and have been using on your citizens? Maybe it's just too logical.

I have no doubts that life there is hard and not fair for many Palestinians who just want to live and let live. Unfortunately they elected a government who has the opposite policy. The next step in the wellbeing of their people lies solely with them. We withdrew they increased attacks we blocked. If they want to stop attacking we can start easing off the blockade they can start gaining back a semblance of  what living life for anything besides death really is.

One of the reasons the Palestinians are pissed off are the settlers. This reasoning borders on insane.

What reasoning? The one where I don't agree with the settlers and I think that instead of wasting army money and lives to defend these people we should let them fend for themselves and see how well they do? That, if in the formation of a Palestinian state in the West Bank, they refuse to leave they should be left for the wolves and either live under Palestinian law or rule or be kicked out by the Palestinians? That reasoning borders on insane? 

hmmmm

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20060626/taamallah

hmmm i also wonder why Israel demanded on controlling the West Bank water

This is all still talking about now while there is still a wall still a separation still settlements still conflict. The point remains that 2 aquifers would not be what keeps Israel from giving back the West Bank if it means true and lasting peace. Until then you don't have to like the policy, Hell, I don't like the policy (assuming the Palestinian who wrote the article is a reliable source). However it still doesn't change the point that based on past precedent I believe Israel would give up the West Bank for peace. And you can say 'no' and I can say 'yes' but in the end only time will tell.

You had the PLO! What happened to them? You had the PLO, you had the Fatah, soon you'll have the Hamas there as well - you can't pull this ****, this is just unbeliavable. West Bank's control is nominally in PA hands, but the problem is the huge grey zone and Israeli creep in form of security fences, settlements and so on.

Fatah is part of the PLO. How can you so disrespectfully accuse Liberator of not knowing the facts when you yourself didn't know that very important nugget of information?

The PLO is comprised of:
Fatah - Largest faction, Left-Wing/nationalist.
The Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP) - Second largest, radically militant and communist
The Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine (DFLP) - Third largest, communist
The Palestinian People's Party (PPP) - Ex-communist, non-militant
The Palestine Liberation Front (PLF, Abu Abbas faction) - Minor left-wing faction
The Arab Liberation Front (ALF) - Minor faction, aligned to the Iraqi Ba'ath Party
As-Sa'iqa - Syrian-controlled Ba'athist faction
The Palestine Democratic Union (Fida) - Minor left-wing faction, non-militant
The Palestinian Popular Struggle Front (PPSF, Samir Ghawsha faction) - minor left-wing faction.
The Palestinian Arab Front (PAF) - minor faction.

And lest we forget the militant wing of Fatah is.... drum roll please dunadundudndudndudn The Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigade. A worldwide recognized terrorists organization. Fancy that.

Soon we will have Hamas there? Is that supposed to be a good thing? This is the group that even Egypt considers a terrorist organization!

Yes, the occupation and settlements sure don't have any role in destabilizing the West Bank, noooo, I mean it's the Palestinians, it's them for the last 30 years yeah.

You have it partially right. The settlements really didn't help the area but then again if they could have simply ceased violence and concentrated on building up a real society the settlements would have been dismantled long ago. Hell we even tried doing that in Gaza BEFORE any progress was made to create a more stable less bloodthirsty government there and look how well that went.

source

Bah well I found the story it's all over but the only place I could find that the IDF deployed to keep the settlers from reacting was in the Israeli news paper I read that morning.

The closest I found was at the end of this article it says that several agencies expressed concern that there would be attempts by the settlers to avenge the murder.

Some links to the story:
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/world/2009-04/02/content_7644323.htm
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1076390.html
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2009/04/200942112127779385.html

Israel has been actively blocking human aid from outside the Israel to Gaza.

What does that have to do with importing?

What did you say again?

Oh they didn't import anything from Israel?

Assam Abu Taha, a wholesaler in the Gaza town of Rafah, said Gazans don't want handouts.

"When the borders are open, and everyone can work freely, we don't need aid," said Abu Taha, 48, whose flour imports from Israel dropped from 200 tons a day to 80 tons a week. "The situation will improve dramatically.

LINK: HAARETZ http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1067796.html

The guy is basically saying that the aid is free and he doesn't want it free he prefers to import for himself and hes frustrated that he can't import as much as he used to.

This still doesn't have any bearing on the fact that the aid is being paid for by Israel.

You are lying.

I will not waste any more time for someone who is obviously willing to lie the **** out of him on an internet discussion board and I seriously hope you'll be monkeyed for this kind of crap. You are a disgrace to this forum.

I hope you take a clue from the grownups on this forum and you realize that all this yelling and defamation of character only soils your own. I do believe the rules of the board concur.

Keep it civil or keep it to yourself.

[karajorma]

All of which are known terrorist organizations or know promoters there of.  They are not, nor should they be considered to be, legitimate governments or proto-goverments.

I'd suggest you take a long hard look at the previous governments of Israel before trying to making claims about who is and isn't a legitimate government. There are some terrorists in there too.

[Snail]

Western culture sucks.

[Janos]

This is sure a lot of words

What history did I distort? I was talking about how for the chance of peace Israel has proven she will give almost anything and I said Israel gave back the Gaza strip and you start talking about what it did up until that point. I simply can't follow your train of thought I'm sorry.
What withdrawal from the West Bank?

.. Oslo accords?

Golan hieghts are a key strategic emplacement that has been used several time to launch attacks on Israel and considering the nation that it used to belong too still seeks the destruction of Israel I see no reason to give back what they lost in a war they started. Tough luck.

... so Israel has not been giving almost anything at all for peace. As a matter of fact they haven't been giving anything at all.

Or they give anything. Unless they don't want to. Then they won't. How come am I not convinced yet?

Gaza is blockaded against the thousands of tons of weapons that are being shipped in there or do you think we should simply allow them to get all those rockets from Iran. You know the ones. The ones they said they would use to hit Te-Aviv? Yeah you can put your city your people your family on the chopping block but you can't ask anyone else to do the same because of some false sense of moral superiority.

And you claim that Israel has been blockading the Gaza strip for all the 2000's? Yet Hamas seem to disagree with you. They wanted Israel to restore the influx of trucks and shipments into the Gaza strip back to 2005 levels which was between 500-600 trucks a day.

Sorry, they didn't blockade it since 2007. I mean, they only withdrew in 2005, it would've been quite stupid of them, right.
Could it be that Israel started to blockade Gaza right after the Hamas won the Palestinian civil war there?

Is the West Bank blockaded? Hmm why not? Could it be they aren't actively seeking weapons to strike at Israel with? Gosh darn who would have thought a nation would try and stop it's enemies from acquiring weapons that they swore to use and have been using on your citizens? Maybe it's just too logical.

Going to all lenghts to achieve peace seems to have a completely new angle here.

I have no doubts that life there is hard and not fair for many Palestinians who just want to live and let live. Unfortunately they elected a government who has the opposite policy. The next step in the wellbeing of their people lies solely with them. We withdrew they increased attacks we blocked. If they want to stop attacking we can start easing off the blockade they can start gaining back a semblance of  what living life for anything besides death really is.

THEY ARE ATTACKING BECAUSE OF THE BLOCKADE

This is really stupid. "We will not do anything, except bomb them every now and then, until they stop attacking us because we bomb them every now and then."

What reasoning? The one where I don't agree with the settlers and I think that instead of wasting army money and lives to defend these people we should let them fend for themselves and see how well they do? That, if in the formation of a Palestinian state in the West Bank, they refuse to leave they should be left for the wolves and either live under Palestinian law or rule or be kicked out by the Palestinians? That reasoning borders on insane? 

Read you wrong there, sorry

hmmmm

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20060626/taamallah

hmmm i also wonder why Israel demanded on controlling the West Bank water

This is all still talking about now while there is still a wall still a separation still settlements still conflict. The point remains that 2 aquifers would not be what keeps Israel from giving back the West Bank if it means true and lasting peace. Until then you don't have to like the policy, Hell, I don't like the policy (assuming the Palestinian who wrote the article is a reliable source). However it still doesn't change the point that based on past precedent I believe Israel would give up the West Bank for peace. And you can say 'no' and I can say 'yes' but in the end only time will tell.

Then why haven't they done so yet? I mean, this has been a stone in the shoe for the last 14 years, and the West Bank security fence only keeps growing. The life in there is ****, they are completely dependent on Israel, they can do nothing, and yet - well, nothing happens!

2 out of 14 or so aquifers is a lot, by the way.

You had the PLO! What happened to them? You had the PLO, you had the Fatah, soon you'll have the Hamas there as well - you can't pull this ****, this is just unbeliavable. West Bank's control is nominally in PA hands, but the problem is the huge grey zone and Israeli creep in form of security fences, settlements and so on.

Fatah is part of the PLO. How can you so disrespectfully accuse Liberator of not knowing the facts when you yourself didn't know that very important nugget of information?

I do! He didn't! He gladly confused them all together. You said you had no one to negotiate with. You had - you just completely bungled the chace to do so and alienated every single potential partner you could've had. And no, you cannot blame it all on Palestinians.

I know very well that Fatah is a part of PLO, but he claimed they all are beheading animals. This was disgusting.
Al-Aqsa's relationship with Fatah is quite possible, but they are an uncontrolled dog. Fatah, on the other hand, has been a reliable companion. Or hey, maybe a decade of chaos has something to do with the owner no longer controlling his dog? Maybe as if this had happened before... maybe even with a organization that is now at odds with Israel in Gaza Strip... hmmm

Soon we will have Hamas there? Is that supposed to be a good thing? This is the group that even Egypt considers a terrorist organization!

No it is not a good thing, but you cannot just *****slap the entire population and hope they still vote the party that is compliant in getting *****slapped. This is exactly what happened in Gaza!

Yes, the occupation and settlements sure don't have any role in destabilizing the West Bank, noooo, I mean it's the Palestinians, it's them for the last 30 years yeah.

You have it partially right. The settlements really didn't help the area but then again if they could have simply ceased violence and concentrated on building up a real society the settlements would have been dismantled long ago. Hell we even tried doing that in Gaza BEFORE any progress was made to create a more stable less bloodthirsty government there and look how well that went.

oh for ****'s sake you cannot be this naive

Complete control of airspace, roads, economy and traffic? Protection - and lately, funnily, expulsion - of rabid settlers? Continuous creep to take over parts of West Bank? Economic sanctions, blockades, barricades - and you claim that the west bank palestinians did not do enough? With what? Spitballs and hair?

source

Bah well I found the story it's all over but the only place I could find that the IDF deployed to keep the settlers from reacting was in the Israeli news paper I read that morning.

ok

The closest I found was at the end of this article it says that several agencies expressed concern that there would be attempts by the settlers to avenge the murder.

Some links to the story:
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/world/2009-04/02/content_7644323.htm
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1076390.html
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2009/04/200942112127779385.html
[/quote]

Israel has been actively blocking human aid from outside the Israel to Gaza.

What does that have to do with importing?

your goalposts are redshifting

Your complete failure to see the blockades, restrictions and sanctions as a meaningful whole means that you can pick up any single detail, no matter how minute, and use it to excuse any mess Israel has driven itself into.

What did you say again?

Oh they didn't import anything from Israel?

Assam Abu Taha, a wholesaler in the Gaza town of Rafah, said Gazans don't want handouts.
"When the borders are open, and everyone can work freely, we don't need aid," said Abu Taha, 48, whose flour imports from Israel dropped from 200 tons a day to 80 tons a week. "The situation will improve dramatically.

LINK: HAARETZ http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1067796.html

The guy is basically saying that the aid is free and he doesn't want it free he prefers to import for himself and hes frustrated that he can't import as much as he used to.

This still doesn't have any bearing on the fact that the aid is being paid for by Israel.

YOU SAID GAZA DIDN'T IMPORT ANYTHING
THIS IS PATENTLY FALSE
The goddamn article talks about imports

IMPORTS

you just said how a blockade has nothing to do with imports
are you now saying that the imports are not actually imports

What, pray tell me, are these imports that do not exist.

I hope you take a clue from the grownups on this forum and you realize that all this yelling and defamation of character only soils your own. I do believe the rules of the board concur.

grownups tsihihihihi

Your argument is basically "well Israel does anything it can (well actually not anything at all) but PALESTINIANS" and it's disgusting.

[Janos]

All of which are known terrorist organizations or know promoters there of.  They are not, nor should they be considered to be, legitimate governments or proto-goverments.

I'd suggest you take a long hard look at the previous governments of Israel before trying to making claims about who is and isn't a legitimate government. There are some terrorists in there too.

well you see if the israel state labels the palestinian group that happens to be in nominal control as a terrorist group then they don't have to negotiate with them because they are terrorists

this is the best logic

[karajorma]

Yep. Launching rockets at Israel = terrorism. Blowing up the King David Hotel = freedom fighting.

I've always loved how Israelis forget that they had the luxury of giving up that kind of overt terrorism cause they won. Had the Palestinians won the war I suspect we'd be in a similar situation with the sides reversed.

[Liberator]

"THEY ARE EVIL. THEREFORE : NO NEGOTIATION."

You can't, by definition, negotiate with evil.

It's Evil, it lies, cheats, steals, sleeps with your wife, kills your dog, dismembers your child in front of you because you won't do what it says, anything it can to achieve it's agenda.  That's what makes it Evil. 

It's not a Point of View or a Shade of Gray or an Equivocation based on Circumstance.

I am sick and tired of the whole god damned world saying a apple is an orange, or this horrific act is acceptable because it might help someone down the road.

Evil is evil.  Period.  End of Line.

Now get your heads out of your collective asses and see things as they are, not as you think they are.

[Janos]

"THEY ARE EVIL. THEREFORE : NO NEGOTIATION."

You can't, by definition, negotiate with evil.

It's Evil, it lies, cheats, steals, sleeps with your wife, kills your dog, dismembers your child in front of you because you won't do what it says, anything it can to achieve it's agenda.  That's what makes it Evil. 

It's not a Point of View or a Shade of Gray or an Equivocation based on Circumstance.

I am sick and tired of the whole god damned world saying a apple is an orange, or this horrific act is acceptable because it might help someone down the road.

Evil is evil.  Period.  End of Line.

Now get your heads out of your collective asses and see things as they are, not as you think they are.

And then what? You claim that people are evil - even those who are not guilty to deeds you claimed. You take your arbitrary morality that applies to individual human beings that subscribe to said code, and try to apply it to situations far beyond the scope of individual ethics?

And what do you get?

Nothing at all.

[Grizzly]

The current Israel stratagy of blowing the crap out of "Hamas Militants" (which usually turns out in killing the families of people who suddenly have very good reasons to become "Hamas Militants") clearly DOESN'T work. So why does no-one consider an alternative strategy, such as making Palestina a sovereign country as well?

[Snail]

There is no good and evil in this world unless you're a naive *****.

[Janos]

The current Israel stratagy of blowing the crap out of "Hamas Militants" (which usually turns out in killing the families of people who suddenly have very good reasons to become "Hamas Militants") clearly DOESN'T work. So why does no-one consider an alternative strategy, such as making Palestina a sovereign country as well?

Well to be honest it really isn't quite that simple.

The "making Palestine a sovereign country" is the bones of the discussion: how to reach that and how to make Israel to be a good player in the game? Another solution would be the current solution which doesn't clearly work because of both ideologic and pragmatic reasons as well as gross power inequality between the two. Of course, the same reasons work against the one nation solution too, at least so far. The other options are either very complex or very ugly.

Right now the Palestine is split in two, downtrodden, unemplyoed, has nothing, is besieged and is in a not-so-solid grasp of groups that have wildly differing goals.

Then, on the other hand, we have Israel, paranoidly guarding it's sovereignity and, as a semilogical expansion of the Israeli school of thought, also of it's influence in the area. The Palestine question is the big question in hand. Well, Israel's attempts to pacify the area and protect it's citizens - not a bad thing, really - reek of domestic handwaving: first they support the Hamas, then the normal thing happen and they are mortal enemies, then they kinda sit by when Hamas and Fatah duke it out in Gaza, then blockade the Gaza, then get attacked by Hamas wackos, then bomb the infrastructure and police stations and then cry when infrastructure is in ruins and the criminals get a free run in Gaza. It's almost if they had lost the ability to follow things through. However, all this has to do with the birth or death of Palestine. So these questions are the ones you have to address before announcing a new Palestinian nation.

[TrashMan]

Is the West Bank blockaded? Hmm why not? Could it be they aren't actively seeking weapons to strike at Israel with? Gosh darn who would have thought a nation would try and stop it's enemies from acquiring weapons that they swore to use and have been using on your citizens? Maybe it's just too logical.

Judging by the number of trucks and convoys Israel stopped, it looks like the "bad guys" are insanely rich when they can bring in those ammounts of weapons!
Their houses must be made of gold bricks...

Unfortunately they elected a government who has the opposite policy. The next step in the wellbeing of their people lies solely with them. We withdrew they increased attacks we blocked. If they want to stop attacking we can start easing off the blockade they can start gaining back a semblance of  what living life for anything besides death really is.

I could say the same. The people of Israel are to blame cause they elected a government that is stupid.

The guy is basically saying that the aid is free and he doesn't want it free he prefers to import for himself and hes frustrated that he can't import as much as he used to.

This still doesn't have any bearing on the fact that the aid is being paid for by Israel.

Wrong. There were reports in the news with some buisnissmen from the Gaza strip who complained at the inflated prices of goods they now have to import from Israel.