[Scotty]

Could it be that Israel started to blockade Gaza right after the Hamas won the Palestinian civil war there?

Really, Hamas won a civil war?  I would have sworn you were ranting about Hamas being the legally elected government earlier.  War does not = election.

You take your arbitrary morality that applies to individual human beings that subscribe to said code, and try to apply it to situations far beyond the scope of individual ethics?

Alright, let's just throw subjective morality out the f*cking door if it makes people feel better.  What does not change is this:
Negotiation can only occur between two groups that share, or at least recognize, the same values.  It is impossible to negotiate with a group that clamors for your imminent destruction.  Can you not wrap your head around that?  "Ready to negotiate?"  "Death to Israel"  "Well, good morning to you too."  Doesn't work too well.

So why does no-one consider an alternative strategy, such as making Palestina a sovereign country as well?

In case you forgot, Palestine was a sovereign country immediately before the formation of Israel.  When Israel was formed, Palestine and the Arab League, including Iran, Transjordan, Iraq, Egypt, Syria, and Lebanon attacked.  All of them were soundly defeated.  The reason that they attacked was that Palestinians wanted the whole of the region to themselves.  Palestine blew it by attacking Israel.  Making it sovereign again will just have history repeat itself.

There is no good and evil in this world unless you're a naive *****.

You can say that.  However, I can still judge for myself good and evil.  I don't need you to tell me I am naive for thinking that somethings are evil, and others are good.

on the other hand, we have Israel, paranoidly guarding it's sovereignity

Justifiably paranoid as well.  Since its inception, it has been invaded not less than four times, including its War for Independence, The Yom Kippur war (Yom Kippur is the holiest day of the Jewish calender.  It's the equivalent to the Tet Offensive, or attacking on Easter Sunday), the Second Lebannon War (started because Hezbollah militants killed three and captured two in a border incursion), and the so-called War of Attrition launched by Egypt.

It's almost if they had lost the ability to follow things through.

Or as if a certain international organization keeps getting mad at them.

The people of Israel are to blame cause they elected a government that is stupid

This year's Israeli elections were bull****.  One guy got to decide, because both favorite parties were deadlocked, and he held enough support to get either elected.  That said, the guy who did so, Avigdor Leiberman, was a right-wing ultranationalist nutjob.

EDIT:  added a word I forgot.

[karajorma]

Could it be that Israel started to blockade Gaza right after the Hamas won the Palestinian civil war there?

Really, Hamas won a civil war?  I would have sworn you were ranting about Hamas being the legally elected government earlier.  War does not = election.

Okay, you need to stop posting on this thread now. You clearly do not know anything about the area and can't be bothered to look things up.

Here, educate yourself then come back and talk.

[Snail]

@ Scotty.

[Scotty]

   I was just

Could it be that Israel started to blockade Gaza right after the Hamas won the Palestinian civil war there?

Really, Hamas won a civil war?  I would have sworn you were ranting about Hamas being the legally elected government earlier.  War does not = election.

Okay, you need to stop posting on this thread now. You clearly do not know anything about the area and can't be bothered to look things up.

Here, educate yourself then come back and talk.

What are you getting mad at me for?  I was pointing out an inconsistency in the arguments presented.

Hamas have been elected by the people so that makes them legitimate.

Could it be that Israel started to blockade Gaza right after the Hamas won the Palestinian civil war there?

All I said was that civil war does not = election, and the story needed to be set straight.

@Snail 

[Snail]

@Snail 

[Commander Zane]

Anyone else find it odd that everytime I go to this thread there's an ad about learning Hebrew on the top of the page?

[karajorma]

What are you getting mad at me for?  I was pointing out an inconsistency in the arguments presented.

Except that there isn't an inconsistancy. Anyone aware of what has been going on in Gaza over the last 4 years would know that. Yet you don't.

I warned you to stop posting until you'd bothered to actually get a basic understanding of the topic but instead you continue to flaunt your ignorance about it. I even linked you an explanation of how both statements can be true and it appears you didn't even bother to read it, preferring instead to repeat the claim of an inconsistency. It seems you actually believe that you've caught Janos in an error. You haven't. 

But you obviously don't know something this basic about the conflict and that makes the rest of your commentary on this subject dubious too. If you don't know how Hamas came into power then you also probably don't understand how Israel was instumental in that happening or how both sides have missed chance after chance for peace with stupid policy decisions.

[Scotty]

Anyone aware of what has been going on in Gaza over the last 4 years would know that.

True that.  Being 16 right now, it wasn't that important to me back then.

But you obviously don't know something this basic about the conflict and that makes the rest of your commentary on this subject dubious too.

I understand that the conflict is over Hamas or part of its organization lobbing rockets into Israel.  I understand that one of the root causes of those rockets is Israeli's occupation of Palestinian terriories.  I also understand that about 1350 Gazans and ~20 Israelis were killed during the recent conflict.  I further understand that one or both sides have violated the cease-fire repeatedly.  I fail to see why my not being entirely clear on the exact reasons for Hamas' rise to power is reason to regard any of my previous commentary is an unfavorable light.

That's like saying that you fail an entire math test because you missed a single question that someone else thinks was obvious.

[Nuclear1]

No, you claim to be pointing out an inconsistency in Janos's argument.

Janos said Hamas won the election, and he said that they won in a civil war.

THIS IS TRUE.

THIS IS THE SECTION OF THE WIKI ARTICLE IMMEDIATELY AFTER what kara quoted for you.

THERE WAS AN ELECTION.

IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE ELECTION WHICH HAMAS WON, THERE WAS A CIVIL WAR WHICH HAMAS WON.

Janos, let's remember that we are talking about people whose idea of warfare is to decapitate and dismember people, then broadcast it on the nightly news shouting and praising they're god.  These are not civilized people who you can reason with and deal with fairly.  No deal you strike with them can be considered binding because they don't recognize you or anyone else that does not adhere to they're perverse religion with equal or greater fervor.

BLARGHHHHHHHH THEY'RE ALL BARBARIANS THEY AREN'T HUMANS LIKE US BOMB THEMMMMMMM BLARGHHHHHHHHH

sorry just quoting rush limbaugh
i see you were too

[Liberator]

There is no good and evil in this world unless you're a naive *****.

Someone's hiding...

Hmm...decapitation of a living person broadcast on live tv or released via video cassette to news outlets isn't evil?

What if someone went into your home and raped your sister in front of you because she was seen in the company of a man not in her family?  What if they proceeded to kill and dismember her for the same offense?

Is that not evil?

I just want you to understand who and what you are defending.  That stuff goes on in some areas of this world on a weekly, if not daily basis.  The people you are defending rule they're neighbors through fear and gangs of thugs moving in the night to maintain that fear.

You sit there in your little flat or apartment or house or dorm room and pontificate about hour Israel is in the wrong and yet they don't rule they're people through fear or manipulation.  Yet, the people you defend meet the definition of human only biologically, otherwise they're no better than the beasts you claim we came from.

I'm not saying there isn't some over-eagerness on the part of the Israel forces.  But they're on guard almost constantly these days, so some slips are to be expected.  But just remember who and what they fight on a near daily basis as you sit in your comfy chair swigging a brew or a cup of milk or whatever.

[karajorma]

You seem to be under the delusion that people are defending Hamas Liberator. If you feel that Hamas is evil that's fine. But the way to fight evil is not with more evil. Yet that is exactly what Israel are doing.

Furthermore this thread was not about Hamas but about the killing of civilians. So unless you're going to claim that all Palestinians are evil you're going to have a hard time convincing me that anyone has been defending Hamas.

Anyone aware of what has been going on in Gaza over the last 4 years would know that.

True that.  Being 16 right now, it wasn't that important to me back then.

Which is why if it is important enough for you to argue about it now, you should make some effort to learn about the subject at hand. Israel is constantly going on about how they can't talk to Hamas about peace and will only talk to Fatah. Yet when Fatah were in charge they refused to talk to them either and were directly responsible for the conditions that lead to Hamas being in charge.

Now that Hamas are in charge, Israel likes to claim that they couldn't see it coming. But that's nonsense. Israel was repeatedly warned exactly what would happen  and chose to ignore it. And for those reasons I am very dubious about Israel's claims that they are willing to talk peace with Fatah. They never were before.

I understand that the conflict is over Hamas or part of its organization lobbing rockets into Israel.  I understand that one of the root causes of those rockets is Israeli's occupation of Palestinian terriories.  I also understand that about 1350 Gazans and ~20 Israelis were killed during the recent conflict.  I further understand that one or both sides have violated the cease-fire repeatedly.  I fail to see why my not being entirely clear on the exact reasons for Hamas' rise to power is reason to regard any of my previous commentary is an unfavorable light.

Because you've failed to appreciate that both sides are in the wrong here. You've failed to appreciate the reason behind the blockade. You've failed to realise why Israel's claims that Hamas are a terrorist organisation who can't be dealt with are laughable given their own choice of leaders (And I don't have to go back as far as Begin for that, Sharon is far enough).

If you look at the incident through a very narrow perspective it's very easy to get the wrong impression.

[TrashMan]

In case you forgot, Palestine was a sovereign country immediately before the formation of Israel.  When Israel was formed, Palestine and the Arab League, including Iran, Transjordan, Iraq, Egypt, Syria, and Lebanon attacked.  All of them were soundly defeated.  The reason that they attacked was that Palestinians wanted the whole of the region to themselves.  Palestine blew it by attacking Israel.  Making it sovereign again will just have history repeat itself.

It will? How do you know?
Contrary to what you believe a whole lot of militants don't fight Israel because of their religion, but because they percieve Israel as evil.

And since we're on the subject of history repeating itself, then why doesn't Israel learn already that the current approach doesn't work. I guess it only learns what it finds convenient to learn.

You can say that.  However, I can still judge for myself good and evil.  I don't need you to tell me I am naive for thinking that somethings are evil, and others are good.

So can I. So can the militants. So can everyone else. Guess what - there's plenty of people who believe Israeli government and military is the incarnation of the devil.

[TrashMan]

What are you getting mad at me for?  I was pointing out an inconsistency in the arguments presented.

Hamas have been elected by the people so that makes them legitimate.

Could it be that Israel started to blockade Gaza right after the Hamas won the Palestinian civil war there?

All I said was that civil war does not = election, and the story needed to be set straight.

The upper quote is mine, the one below is by someone else.
So technicly there is no inconsistency, since you took quotes from different people.

You sit there in your little flat or apartment or house or dorm room and pontificate about hour Israel is in the wrong and yet they don't rule they're people through fear or manipulation.  Yet, the people you defend meet the definition of human only biologically, otherwise they're no better than the beasts you claim we came from.

they lord over the occupied territories with fear and manipulation. Not a big difference.

[Scotty]

So technicly there is no inconsistency, since you took quotes from different people.

Wow, didn't even notice that.

@second part

 

[Janos]

There is no good and evil in this world unless you're a naive *****.

Someone's hiding...

Hmm...decapitation of a living person broadcast on live tv or released via video cassette to news outlets isn't evil?

And this bull**** you spew started right after you showed that you didn't know who did and what did. You are demonizing your opponent because, well...

What if someone went into your home and raped your sister in front of you because she was seen in the company of a man not in her family?  What if they proceeded to kill and dismember her for the same offense?

What if your aunt had balls? Then she would be your uncle!

Is that not evil?

I just want you to understand who and what you are defending.  That stuff goes on in some areas of this world on a weekly, if not daily basis.  The people you are defending rule they're neighbors through fear and gangs of thugs moving in the night to maintain that fear.

This is stupid, because you
A) assume people are defending ... someone, I don't even know who because you oh so surprisingly fail to even name who this evil is
B) just appeal to fear
C) don't still know what or who you are talking about

You sit there in your little flat or apartment or house or dorm room and pontificate about hour Israel is in the wrong and yet they don't rule they're people through fear or manipulation.  Yet, the people you defend meet the definition of human only biologically, otherwise they're no better than the beasts you claim we came from.

hey hey hey

I have a better idea:

Liberator is a bad evil human being.

There, I did it, this is actually just as good an argument as your argument, and now I don't have to discuss with you at all because you are evil!

Whoa! Who would've guessed it was this easy!

Oh yes I can still ask WHO are these evil beings but I know you are already searching Wikipedia for beheadings which you will post here in your next reply to me and then you go on and on and on how EVIL some things are. And yet hey surprisingly actually talking to your enemy has historically had a good track record but guess we shouldn't care and just kill everyone because some people are evil

blargh

I'm not saying there isn't some over-eagerness on the part of the Israel forces.  But they're on guard almost constantly these days, so some slips are to be expected.  But just remember who and what they fight on a near daily basis as you sit in your comfy chair swigging a brew or a cup of milk or whatever.

There has to be a name for this stupid stupid discussion tactic but seriously man what the hell is this bull****
Are you fighting gallantly for the ghost of Moshe Dayan or what in the Gaza frontier? Why must I risk myself before making a value judgement, wait, I guess you haven't either. Are you some kind of a talking point generator?

This entire post gave me nosebleed and it's not of the sexy kind.

[Scotty]

And yet hey surprisingly actually talking to your enemy has historically had a good track record but guess we shouldn't care and just kill everyone because some people are evil

Yeah, just look at its track record:  Appeasement, the Yalta Conference, etc.

Once again, negotiations can only take place if both sides share or at least recognize the same values and objectives.  It would be quite impossible to negotiate with someone screaming for your head.

[TrashMan]

Except they were willing to negotiate, and any time they unified enough and were willing enough, Israel pulled back or just offed the most vocal negotiator.

[Janos]

And yet hey surprisingly actually talking to your enemy has historically had a good track record but guess we shouldn't care and just kill everyone because some people are evil

Yeah, just look at its track record:  Appeasement, the Yalta Conference, etc.

This is just ridiculous: negotiations have worked time after time and have pretty much always been the method the prolonged conflicts have been solved and what do you do? Pick up the Yalta conference! Yalta Conference! Yalta conference had **** to do with the type of negotiation we deal with here - it was a conference where the winners started to prepare for the situation after the war!

Seriously, you cherrypick and you choose... the Yalta conference .

I could be as intellectually dishonest as you and just say they always work because [A CERTAIN PLACE IN SOUTHEAST ASIA] but hey, no

Why did you only pick World War II examples, by the way? I mean, there are a lot better examples available.

Once again, negotiations can only take place if both sides share or at least recognize the same values and objectives.  It would be quite impossible to negotiate with someone screaming for your head.

And this is just stupid for umpteen reasons. Negotiatons where both sides aim at same... objectives? What the **** do you think the negotiatons are for! WHAT DOES NEGOTIATION MEAN?

I don't seriously know why I bother with this. First Splinter, now you. Am I trapped in some kind of vortex where reality is built on anecdotal evidence and high-flying moral outrage

[Grizzly]

Seriously, you cherrypick and you choose... the Yalta conference .

Still, could be worse. He could have picked Versailles.

[SpardaSon21]

Israel can't negotiate with Hamas.  Negotiation requires common ground.  Both sides have to respect each other as equals.  Hamas's stated goal is the destruction of Israel.  They clearly have no respect for Israel or Israels' viewpoints.  Israel negotiating with Hamas is like you negotiating with a man who has just broken into your house and has told you he wants to kill you and your family.