[Liberator]

Am I trapped in some kind of vortex where reality is built on anecdotal evidence and high-flying moral outrage

Says the goose to the gander, if we were arguing something you thought was right you'd be on the other side of the argument.

Israel can't negotiate with Hamas.  Negotiation requires common ground.  Both sides have to respect each other as equals.  Hamas's stated goal is the destruction of Israel.  They clearly have no respect for Israel or Israels' viewpoints.  Israel negotiating with Hamas is like you negotiating with a man who has just broken into your house and has told you he wants to kill you and your family.

THIS

[blackhole]

That doesn't exactly justify blowing up a school.

[karajorma]

Israel negotiating with Hamas is like you negotiating with a man who has just broken into your house and has told you he wants to kill you and your family while you hold a gun to his head.

That's a bit closer to the real situation.

Yes you can negotiate with Hamas, and even if you can't it's Israel's own fault for not negotiating with Fatah and the PLO when they had the chance.

[TrashMan]

Israel can't negotiate with Hamas.  Negotiation requires common ground.  Both sides have to respect each other as equals. 

And Israel respects Hamas as equals?

[Splinter]

Ahh it's good to be home... sorry for the delay in response I see I missed a lot but I have been working my ass off. So now down to the real nitty gritty.

.. Oslo accords?

Is that even still relevant I thought the whole point of that was the partial handover of control of the West bank to the PLO and in turn they would start reigning in the terrorists.

In essence, the accords called for the withdrawal of Israeli forces from parts of the Gaza Strip and West Bank, and affirmed a Palestinian right of self-government within those areas through the creation of a Palestinian Authority. Palestinian rule was to last for a five-year interim period during which a permanent agreement would be negotiated (beginning no later than May 1996). Permanent issues such as Jerusalem, Palestinian refugees, Israeli settlements, and security and borders were deliberately excluded from the Accords and left to be decided. Israel was to grant interim self-government to the Palestinians in phases. Until a final status accord was established, West Bank and Gaza would be divided into three zones:
Area A - under complete control of the Palestinian Authority.
Area B - under Palestinian civil control and Israeli security control.
Area C - under complete Israeli control, except over Palestinian civilians. These areas were Israeli settlements and "security zones."

Along with the principles, the two groups signed Letters of Mutual Recognition - the Israeli government recognized the PLO as the legitimate representative of the Palestinian people, while the PLO recognized the right of the state of Israel to exist and renounced terrorism as well as other violence, and its desire for the destruction of the Israeli state.

This was a partial withdrawal from the West Bank and it was a trial period. One that failed miserably. This whole agreement hinged on Israel withdrawing and the PLO renouncing violence and the destruction of Israel etc etc... which they still to this day have not since they either directly by way of the militant groups in their midst (al-aqsa martyrs brigade) or indirectly by simply not doing anything to stop the terrorists even after Israel gave them hundreds of weapons to combat terrorists and enforce their laws with more often than not any time after that an attack was carried out by a terrorist we found his body with a weapon Israel had given to the PLO.

This is like a family whose neighbors orphan child after being allowed to stay in the home next door under the families supervision decides he doesn't like the family because he believes for whatever reason all his troubles stem from them and so he rebels and throws a fit. And so the parents create restrictions on him for fear for their own safety cause he is lashing out violently at them. But he rebels more and they punish him and he rebels more but now he says it's because they are overbearing and because the punishments for his actions have somehow become unwarranted attacks. So the parents decide that maybe they are a bit overbearing and give him a car but he uses the car to try and run them down.

Just like children terrorists learn that if they get what they want with a temper tantrum or violence why stop?

... so Israel has not been giving almost anything at all for peace. As a matter of fact they haven't been giving anything at all.

Or they give anything. Unless they don't want to. Then they won't. How come am I not convinced yet?

Ummm Syria has not even conceded the point that Israel has the right to exist and is still in state of war in her relationship with Israel why exactly would any sane person give back a key strategic location to an enemy still hell bent, and not even hiding it, on destroying you? Are you suicidal or do you just expect us to be?

Sorry, they didn't blockade it since 2007. I mean, they only withdrew in 2005, it would've been quite stupid of them, right.
Could it be that Israel started to blockade Gaza right after the Hamas won the Palestinian civil war there?

Yes it is.

Israel left Gaza on Sept 1, 2005 as part of Israel's unilateral disengagement plan. A blockade was imposed after Hamas defeated Fatah in the Battle of Gaza (2007), when Egypt and Israel partially sealed their border crossings with Gaza, on the grounds that Fatah had fled and was no longer providing security on their side. Egypt [5] feared a spill-over of Hamas-style militancy into Egypt.[6]The sanctions have been tightened in response to rocket attacks on southern Israel and Palestinian militant attacks on crossing points between Israel and Gaza.[7][8]

THEY ARE ATTACKING BECAUSE OF THE BLOCKADE

This is really stupid. "We will not do anything, except bomb them every now and then, until they stop attacking us because we bomb them every now and then."

So what were they attacking because of from 2000-2007? Or even from 1987 (the creation of Hamas) until 2007? On the one hand I can believe you that they are attacking because they are sad oppressed people who just want to live in peace with no one hanging over their heads. On the other hand I can believe what Hamas itself claims as it's goals and purposes.

Hamas's 1988 charter calls for the replacement of Israel and the Palestinian Territories with an Islamic Palestinian state. However, Hamas did not mention that goal in its electoral manifesto during the January 2006 election campaign,[42] though the manifesto did call for maintaining the armed struggle against the Israeli occupation of the Palestinian Territories.[42]

After the elections, in April, 2006, Hamas co-founder Mahmoud Al-Zahar did not rule out the possibility of accepting a temporary two-state solution, but also stated that he dreamed "of hanging a huge map of the world on the wall at my Gaza home which does not show Israel on it . . . . I hope that our dream to have our independent state on all historic Palestine (will materialize). . . . This dream will become real one day. I'm certain of this because there is no place for the state of Israel on this land".[43] Al-Zahar added that he did not rule out the possibility of having Jews, Muslims and Christians living under the sovereignty of an Islamic state, stating that the Palestinians had never hated the Jews and that only the Israeli occupation was their enemy.[43]

Then why haven't they done so yet? I mean, this has been a stone in the shoe for the last 14 years, and the West Bank security fence only keeps growing. The life in there is ****, they are completely dependent on Israel, they can do nothing, and yet - well, nothing happens!

2 out of 14 or so aquifers is a lot, by the way.

Because there is no one to give it up to! The Hamas are terrorists who won't recognize Israel's right to exist the Fatah support terrorists and guess what? Fatah also don't recognize Israels right to exist. The PLO is made up of these groups and can't control them even if they wanted to (which they have shown they don't)

Who exactly is our partner for peace here?

I know very well that Fatah is a part of PLO, but he claimed they all are beheading animals. This was disgusting.
Al-Aqsa's relationship with Fatah is quite possible, but they are an uncontrolled dog. Fatah, on the other hand, has been a reliable companion. Or hey, maybe a decade of chaos has something to do with the owner no longer controlling his dog? Maybe as if this had happened before... maybe even with a organization that is now at odds with Israel in Gaza Strip... hmmm

You know it very well yet you listed them as separate candidates for peace.

They are an uncontrolled dog... so why should we assume that Fatah can control other terrorist groups when it can't even control the one claiming to be a part of it? Fatah is a reliable companion? The group that supports Hamas in not recognizing Israel's right to exist and follows suit? Maybe in these decades the owner never has controlled his dog. And there is no organization that is now at odds with Israel in the Gaza strip there is however an organization that was created to be and has always been and continues to be “at odds” (nice way of saying 'targeting civilians for mass murder') with Israel.

No it is not a good thing, but you cannot just *****slap the entire population and hope they still vote the party that is compliant in getting *****slapped. This is exactly what happened in Gaza!

What ***** slap? The pulling out of Gaza in 2005? the targeted killings of terrorist leaders? The 500-600 trucks of aid per day? Or maybe your talking about the blockade... nah. That couldn't be... because whatever this ***** slapping is, it caused the people to vote for Hamas, and the blockade only started... let me see here... oh yeah! After the vote. Interesting.

Complete control of airspace, roads, economy and traffic? Protection - and lately, funnily, expulsion - of rabid settlers? Continuous creep to take over parts of West Bank? Economic sanctions, blockades, barricades - and you claim that the west bank palestinians did not do enough? With what? Spitballs and hair?

how about before all the sanctions restrictions checkpoints etc? What did they do time and time again with those freedoms? Try and create a peaceful loving state or annihilate the Jewish presence from holy Muslim land?

But hey don't let the past cloud your judgment let's look at today. Who provided them with weapons and unfroze their finances when they swore to fight the terrorists? No you are right. Spitballs and hair killed thousands Israelis for decades if only we had an anti spitball defense system we could simply ignore their measly attacks.

Your complete failure to see the blockades, restrictions and sanctions as a meaningful whole means that you can pick up any single detail, no matter how minute, and use it to excuse any mess Israel has driven itself into.

Yeah we weren't talking about this we were addressing whether the aid sent by Israel was paid for by the Israeli government or if the Pals were being charged for it.

YOU SAID GAZA DIDN'T IMPORT ANYTHING
THIS IS PATENTLY FALSE
The goddamn article talks about imports

IMPORTS

you just said how a blockade has nothing to do with imports
are you now saying that the imports are not actually imports

What, pray tell me, are these imports that do not exist.

We are misunderstanding each other somewhere here I am sure. I made the claim that Israel was the one providing aid to Gaza then someone (Trashman I believe) made the claim that what good is that if the Palestinians have to pay for it all it just means they are financially bound to support Israel. Which if this were the case that would be true however what I pointed out was that the aid was free. And the aid itself isn't something they send in orders for therefore if it's not a specified order and not paid for it's not an import. That's the aid trucks. Allot of these people DO try and import from Israel but are restricted by the blockade like this man claims and are either unable to or are very limited. In short all I was addressing was the claim that the aid was not that great because the Pals still had to pay for it... which, as far as I know, they don't.

grownups tsihihihihi

Your argument is basically "well Israel does anything it can (well actually not anything at all) but PALESTINIANS" and it's disgusting.

Israel doesn't 'do' Palestinians? What the hell does that mean? I mean I'm dating an Arab girl that if not for her Israeli citizenship would be considered “Palestinian”. Does that count?

Yep. Launching rockets TARGETED at Israeli civilians = . Blowing up the King David Hotel an attack targeted at the central offices of the British Mandatory authorities of Palestine, the Secretariat of the Government of Palestine and Headquarters of the British Forces in Palestine and Transjordan and not it's civilians including 3 warning calls to evacuate the building which went ignored = Nothing I would support but miles away from seeing a soldier and a baby in your cross hairs and going for the baby.

Fixed.

The current Israel stratagy of blowing the crap out of "Hamas Militants" (which usually turns out in killing the families of people who suddenly have very good reasons to become "Hamas Militants") clearly DOESN'T work. So why does no-one consider an alternative strategy, such as making Palestina a sovereign country as well?

Whatever happened with “we do not negotiate with terrorists”? Now it's “We do not negotiate with terrorists unless they don't stop for years and years and we can't kill them all because it's a very difficult organization to weed out from among the population so then we just give them a country and hope they renounce everything they think their religion teaches them and everything they claim they believe and don't try and destroy us anymore.

Look I have always said I wished they would get their own state their own government and police etc etc etc that way when they use that to continue to attack Israel people will realize “hey they actually meant what they said when they claimed their goals were the removal of the Jewish state from the map. Fancy that!”

There is no good and evil in this world unless you're a naive *****.

ummmm k. there is no Obama and chocolate jelly beans unless you're a naive *****. See I can make stuff up to isn't it fun?

Judging by the number of trucks and convoys Israel stopped, it looks like the "bad guys" are insanely rich when they can bring in those ammounts of weapons!
Their houses must be made of gold bricks...

Unfortunately Iran, Syria, Hezbollah, etc etc all these places WANT this conflict they always have supported it and if you think the Palestinians are placing orders online for this stuff and paying for it you are mistaken.

I could say the same. The people of Israel are to blame cause they elected a government that is stupid.

You could but I don't recall the Israeli government ever saying “We desire death as much as they desire life”.

Wrong. There were reports in the news with some buisnissmen from the Gaza strip who complained at the inflated prices of goods they now have to import from Israel.

Goods they chose to import. The whole point was the aid that is sent is free that is not being ordered and then shipped over there anything extra that is ordered of course prices will go up under a blockade and a state of war.

[TrashMan]

This was a partial withdrawal from the West Bank and it was a trial period. One that failed miserably. This whole agreement hinged on Israel withdrawing and the PLO renouncing violence and the destruction of Israel etc etc... which they still to this day have not since they either directly by way of the militant groups in their midst (al-aqsa martyrs brigade) or indirectly by simply not doing anything to stop the terrorists even after Israel gave them hundreds of weapons to combat terrorists and enforce their laws with more often than not any time after that an attack was carried out by a terrorist we found his body with a weapon Israel had given to the PLO.

You think a few guns and police patrols can actually stop terrorists? the USA couldn't stop a handful of terrorists in their own country, with all the technical gizmos at their disposal. Israel can't stop terrorist attacks no matter how many guns it deploys.

And you SERIOUSLY expected the PLO to be able to completley stop any and all attacks? you're asking for the impossible. Israel should withdraw first. Once the situation in the region gets better, then and only then can you expect a decline in terrorist activity.

Ummm Syria has not even conceded the point that Israel has the right to exist and is still in state of war in her relationship with Israel why exactly would any sane person give back a key strategic location to an enemy still hell bent, and not even hiding it, on destroying you? Are you suicidal or do you just expect us to be?

Cause Israel don't have any rights to hold it under pretenses of possible future invasions. The location is important for other reasons - resources and territorial expansion of Isreal.
Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if Isreal actually helped push thing during the first war, so it could grab some more territory.

Because there is no one to give it up to! The Hamas are terrorists who won't recognize Israel's right to exist the Fatah support terrorists and guess what? Fatah also don't recognize Israels right to exist. The PLO is made up of these groups and can't control them even if they wanted to (which they have shown they don't)

A eternal argument. Israel can accuse any government of supporting terrorism or extrmism and simply avoid giving back territory till the end of time. Catch 22.

They are an uncontrolled dog... so why should we assume that Fatah can control other terrorist groups when it can't even control the one claiming to be a part of it? Fatah is a reliable companion? The group that supports Hamas in not recognizing Israel's right to exist and follows suit? Maybe in these decades the owner never has controlled his dog. And there is no organization that is now at odds with Israel in the Gaza strip there is however an organization that was created to be and has always been and continues to be “at odds” (nice way of saying 'targeting civilians for mass murder') with Israel.

Waiting for the whole populace to miracolousy start loving Israel is idiotic.
You make deals with whom you can, and try to help those that are willing to negotiate. F'course, Israel doesn't do that.

We are misunderstanding each other somewhere here I am sure. I made the claim that Israel was the one providing aid to Gaza then someone (Trashman I believe) made the claim that what good is that if the Palestinians have to pay for it all it just means they are financially bound to support Israel. Which if this were the case that would be true however what I pointed out was that the aid was free. And the aid itself isn't something they send in orders for therefore if it's not a specified order and not paid for it's not an import. That's the aid trucks. Allot of these people DO try and import from Israel but are restricted by the blockade like this man claims and are either unable to or are very limited. In short all I was addressing was the claim that the aid was not that great because the Pals still had to pay for it... which, as far as I know, they don't.

Which again is a lie or misunderstanding, since I never said that.
There is some basic aid sent to Gaza.
But the majority of stuff is imported. Aid and import and not mutually exclusive.

You could but I don't recall the Israeli government ever saying “We desire death as much as they desire life”.

Actions speak louder than words...

Goods they chose to import. The whole point was the aid that is sent is free that is not being ordered and then shipped over there anything extra that is ordered of course prices will go up under a blockade and a state of war.

Goods they HAVE to import because thanks to Israel they can't make them themselves. And you can bet your ass they wont' be allowed to import them from somewhere else at normal prices.

[Liberator]

The situation in question will not get better until certain parties begin acting like responsible adults, instead of petulant children and begin censuring the parties within they're own countries who are fomenting terrorism and anti-west education from "religious" people.

I don't think you guys are going to believe this coming from me but anyway

Religions should concern themselves with politics only so much as the polices of the government impact the spiritual well being of her people.  I wouldn't support the Southern Baptist Convention educating and ordering it's Young People ministries to carry out suicide bombings and guerilla attacks against the United Methodist Church or the local courthouse.  We know what is required for our spiritual wellbeing.  As Christ said, "Render unto Ceasar what is Ceasar's, render unto God, what is God's.

[karajorma]

The situation in question will not get better until certain parties begin acting like responsible adults, instead of petulant children and begin censuring the parties within they're own countries who are fomenting terrorism and anti-west education from "religious" people.

I don't think you guys are going to believe this coming from me but anyway.

Actually you're correct. You just don't go far enough. The situation won't improve until certain parties on both sides begin acting like responsible adults. The problem is that both sides insist on arguing like children about who started it.

[Splinter]

You think a few guns and police patrols can actually stop terrorists? the USA couldn't stop a handful of terrorists in their own country, with all the technical gizmos at their disposal. Israel can't stop terrorist attacks no matter how many guns it deploys.

With all the technical gizmos and the security allertness of a shoe. I'm sorry but the U.S. When it was attacked was living in a dream world. It's a very different situatio now. Israel has been able to pretty much stop all terrorist attacks that require a human presence in the area of attack. When is the last suicide bombing? The tractor attacks were from people already living inside the secure area and the ax attack was on a settlement outside the secure area... so Israels success rate at stopping or catching in time everything but the rocket attacks is pretty high. And soon with the completion of Iron Dome Israel will become the first nation with short medium and long range missle defense systems.

And you SERIOUSLY expected the PLO to be able to completley stop any and all attacks? you're asking for the impossible. Israel should withdraw first. Once the situation in the region gets better, then and only then can you expect a decline in terrorist activity.

All? No. Any? Yes. Effort? Absolutely! Israel should withdraw handing over the reigns to... absolutely no one and hoping that in time they come around. You should run for office. You don't get to decide when there will be a decline in terrorist activity and Unfortunately for you the terrorists disagree with your schedule for when they should cease and desist. See, their schedule calls for the erasing of the Jewish state from the map and a Muslim banner over all of 'Palestine' and THEN there will be stop to the attacks.

See what many people seem to forget is that the average Palestinian may want peace and their own country side by side with Israel however the people they are allowing to fight for them have very different goals.

Cause Israel don't have any rights to hold it under pretenses of possible future invasions. The location is important for other reasons - resources and territorial expansion of Isreal.
Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if Isreal actually helped push thing during the first war, so it could grab some more territory.

until you have been up to the Golan heights you cannot imagine what kind of a valuable emplacement that is. You look out from there over the entire Galilee all of Israel open to any invading force. We are still in a state of war with Syria and so we don't have to give up anything. They still don't recognize our right to exist and they still work towards and talk about and equip and ready themselves towards another war with Israel. Why you would give a sniper who is trying to shoot you and your family the keys to the church tower right across the street is beyond me.

A eternal argument. Israel can accuse any government of supporting terrorism or extrmism and simply avoid giving back territory till the end of time. Catch 22.

There is no catch 22 here. Egypt doesn't support terrorism anymore and we gave back the Sinai. We thought maybe that Fatah would try and quell the violence in the Gaza strip and so we pulled out of there even while rockets were falling on our towns and what happened? The violence increased immediately. Did you see bee movie? At least watch the trailer. The scene where the bee tries to fly away and hits the glass and then he does it ten more times saying “maybe this time, this time, this time, this time, this time.” this is exactly what you are telling us to do.

They are an uncontrolled dog... so why should we assume that Fatah can control other terrorist groups when it can't even control the one claiming to be a part of it? Fatah is a reliable companion? The group that supports Hamas in not recognizing Israel's right to exist and follows suit? Maybe in these decades the owner never has controlled his dog. And there is no organization that is now at odds with Israel in the Gaza strip there is however an organization that was created to be and has always been and continues to be “at odds” (nice way of saying 'targeting civilians for mass murder') with Israel.

Waiting for the whole populace to miracolousy start loving Israel is idiotic.
You make deals with whom you can, and try to help those that are willing to negotiate. F'course, Israel doesn't do that.

They don't need to love us. They don't even need to like us. All they need to do is live and let live.

Which again is a lie or misunderstanding, since I never said that.
There is some basic aid sent to Gaza.
But the majority of stuff is imported. Aid and import and not mutually exclusive.

you called it “economic slavery”. Which is not true since they don't pay for the aid they get it free.

The majority of what stuff is imported? Food and clothing and medical supplies and fuel is by the aid trucks I doubt people could import more even if they did pay. The rest of it... like building materials is not being allowed into the strip imported or not because of it's potentials uses. So what exactly is the “majority of stuff” you are talking about?

Actions speak louder than words...

Your absolutely right. And not only did Hamas leader say that but they also practice it in day to day life for the past few decades. So what here is so hard to understand?

Goods they HAVE to import because thanks to Israel they can't make them themselves. And you can bet your ass they wont' be allowed to import them from somewhere else at normal prices.

Again the stuff they NEED food, medical supplies, clothing, and fuel all comes in the aid trucks. Besides that... stuff like building materials are restricted so again what do they HAVE to import?

[TrashMan]

All? No. Any? Yes. Effort? Absolutely! Israel should withdraw handing over the reigns to... absolutely no one and hoping that in time they come around. You should run for office. You don't get to decide when there will be a decline in terrorist activity and Unfortunately for you the terrorists disagree with your schedule for when they should cease and desist. See, their schedule calls for the erasing of the Jewish state from the map and a Muslim banner over all of 'Palestine' and THEN there will be stop to the attacks.

There was PLO. Then there was Fatah. Then there is Hamas. Israel has and still has someone to hand the reigns over. It just doesn't want to. It expect immediate results and goes ape*** insane when it doesn't get it.
Heck, if I were elected as leader of the palestinians, not even I would want to talk to Isreal now - after their magnificent track record of assisaniting and demonizing anyone who wants to actually talk to them, I'd just be making myself a target.

See what many people seem to forget is that the average Palestinian may want peace and their own country side by side with Israel however the people they are allowing to fight for them have very different goals.

Allow? Strange choice of words. People who fight against Israel didn't ask anyones permission.

until you have been up to the Golan heights you cannot imagine what kind of a valuable emplacement that is. You look out from there over the entire Galilee all of Israel open to any invading force. We are still in a state of war with Syria and so we don't have to give up anything. They still don't recognize our right to exist and they still work towards and talk about and equip and ready themselves towards another war with Israel. Why you would give a sniper who is trying to shoot you and your family the keys to the church tower right across the street is beyond me.

Because it's his tower, it has valubales in it, and I don't have any proof that he will attack at all.
You do realsie that some people/leaders are full of hot air and are just strong on words.

you called it “economic slavery”. Which is not true since they don't pay for the aid they get it free.

I called the imports economic slavery. I mean...really

The majority of what stuff is imported? Food and clothing and medical supplies and fuel is by the aid trucks I doubt people could import more even if they did pay. The rest of it... like building materials is not being allowed into the strip imported or not because of it's potentials uses. So what exactly is the “majority of stuff” you are talking about?

Whatever it is that is needed. I doubt the aid is enough by itself, so things have to be imported. Yes, that includes food. It was in the papers.
Flour to be more precise. And other things. All imported. All paid.

So what here is so hard to understand?

I can ask you the same question.

Again the stuff they NEED food, medical supplies, clothing, and fuel all comes in the aid trucks. Besides that... stuff like building materials are restricted so again what do they HAVE to import?

and that's wrong. There have been numerous reports, interviews with palestinian buisnismen who talk about these things. they import a lot of stuff, including food.

And building materials outlawed? So they can't rebuild their factories and homes? Way to go Isreal!

[Liberator]

here was PLO. Then there was Fatah. Then there is Hamas. Israel has and still has someone to hand the reigns over. It just doesn't want to. It expect immediate results and goes ape*** insane when it doesn't get it.

Actually, it's been going on for about 40 years.

If the Palestinians, most of which are actually Syrian, actually wanted peace, it could happen tomorrow.

[karajorma]

The same could be said about Israel. I doubt they'd like the conditions but then neither would the Palestinians like them for your peace tomorrow idea.

[Janos]

Actually, it's been going on for about 40 years.

If the Palestinians, most of which are actually Syrian, actually wanted peace, it could happen tomorrow.

Have you actually read the thread at all?

[Liberator]

Yeah, I have.  I see a lot of defending of the palestinians, most likely because they are the "downtrodden"(nevermind it's they're own fault), and a lot of attacks and hatred leveled at Israel, most likely since the left tends to view Israel as an aggressor state who's trying to take land from the downtrodden.  That and you aren't letting facts get in the way of your argument against Israel.

The Palestinians need several things, but mostly, they need stability.  Stability is not provided by lobbing rockets or sending your young to blow themselves up in a crowded market/disco/resturant.  If the attacks stopped, I'm sure Israel would cease her retaliation.

Of course, I would glass the whole area and let Allah sort them out.

Also, their fight isn't whether God exists or who has the right to the resources in the area.  They're fighting, and have alway fought, over what God's name is, how he should be worshipped and what his commands for humanity are.  My opinion on those is as follows, God's name is irrelevant, he's God.  He is worshipped by praising Him and His works as well as how you live and follow His commands, which for me are laid out in the teachings of Jesus Christ in the New Testament of the Holy Bible.

I'll say this though, based on my readings, God does not want us killing each other like has been going on over that particular stretch of land for the past 1400 years.

[karajorma]

You've obviously read it without understanding a single thing.

[redsniper]

I'll say this though, based on my readings, God does not want us killing each other like has been going on over that particular stretch of land for the past 1400 years.

Of course, I would glass the whole area and let Allah sort them out.

[Scotty]

You've obviously read it without understanding a single thing.

That actually seems to me like a very reasonable estimate of the last 12 pages of arguing.  I'll go ahead and say this could go with the "won't let facts get in your way" section.

[Nuclear1]

Yeah, I have.  I see a lot of defending of the palestinians, most likely because they are the "downtrodden"(nevermind it's they're own fault), and a lot of attacks and hatred leveled at Israel, most likely since the left tends to view Israel as an aggressor state who's trying to take land from the downtrodden.  That and you aren't letting facts get in the way of your argument against Israel.

So, what exactly would you call the 1967 War? Israel defending itself?

There's no hate being levied at Israel, except what is due it.  Israel might have been the underdog at one point in the Middle East, and deserved such sympathy, but as the sole nuclear power in the Middle East with one of the most advanced militaries in the world, it doesn't anymore.

The Palestinians need several things, but mostly, they need stability.  Stability is not provided by lobbing rockets or sending your young to blow themselves up in a crowded market/disco/resturant.  If the attacks stopped, I'm sure Israel would cease her retaliation.

So the Palestinians have to be the first to act? 

Of course, I would glass the whole area and let Allah sort them out.

Yeah, nuke the Holy Land.  Fantastic idea.

Also, their fight isn't whether God exists or who has the right to the resources in the area. 

Actually, that's exactly what it's about.  The resources and land part, at least.  The resistance movements exist to liberate Palestine from Israel, not because of the "name of God".  Judaism and Islam have far too much in common for it to be about that.

[Liberator]

Except that most Jews don't think God has ordered them to kill everyone not a Jew.

Also, you realize it's less than 40 miles from Jerusalem to Gaza?  And look at the difference in landscape...who's the better steward of said resources.

[Kosh]

Somethings that we should consider:

1.) Israel has totally carved up the West Bank and Gaza Strip with illegal settlers and outposts. Because of this it takes many hours to go 10 km.

2.) There are a great many extremists on both sides and in the US who, for religious reasons believe this is the "End Times" and so they want this conflict to continue so it brings about the end of the world.

Because of number 2, the conflict will not end either until religion is destroyed or the holy lands are destroyed.