[SpardaSon21]

Israel puts one tiny pink toe across the line and the world comes down on them like a ton of bricks.  Conversely, Hamas can do pretty much whatever they want, and no one gives a damn since they are a terrorist organization, never mind they are the Palestinian government, and should act like it.

[karajorma]

Secondly, if Hamas doesn't have the means to stop belligerence coming from its own territory, why should it be in place in the beginning?

Israel didn't have the ability to stop the rocket attacks when they were in charge either.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Number_of_Morter_and_Rocket_Attacks_2001_Through_2008V5.jpg

So why do you expect Hamas to be able to crack down on splinter groups when Israel couldn't?

[Splinter]

That works both ways. And who has more resources, more connections to use for propaganda? Israel or some palestinian terrorists?
Oh geez, that's such a difficult question.
Both have the same amount of money, communicational acess and political leverage...yeah right. Dream on!

You are wrong and right. You are correct that they have all the ability and resources etc however, as we can see with all the lies that have been revealed on the other side, propaganda has a big flaw... it's not the truth and usually be it a month or a year or 10 years after the incident the truth comes out. So far I can't recall any clear cut Israeli propaganda being used... a quick Google search confirmed there are scattered reports of this happening here and that happening there but every time I clicked on one of them it was another Palestinian claiming the IDF did this this and this and the IDF saying no we didn't. That is the Israeli propaganda. The difference is between Israel and the Palestinians is that whenever a final verdict has come out on one of these issues it always happens to be the desperate terrorists who were lying what a shocker. 

IIRC, they did do that. I recall a video of that. Even if I'm wrong, it's easy enough to prove - a plain with passengers doesn't just dissapear. If Pentagon wasn't hit by a plane, then where did tat plane go?

As far as I remember the point was that the whole was too small and there was not nearly enough wreckage to have been a 767 or whatever it was... so your question stands the other way around as well. If it was a plane where did that plane go? I don't really care honestly it's not my country not my problem and I don't like to get involved in things I don't know a great deal about because what gives me the right to judge if all I know is what I get off youtube and your favorite right/left wing media outlet?

Other than that if you do happen to find a link to that video I would like to see it... would be interesting.

Aha...so propaganada is used on a massive scale by terrorist and Israel doesn't use it an all? And non-government controlled organizations that criticize Israel are all twisted and evil?
Are you sure you weren't brainwashed?

I didn't say no propaganda and I didn't say evil. See here is what so many people forget. The U.N. in Gaza isn't the UN you think of like I showed before 99% of them are the local residents so when a UN report comes out about what Israel did etc and UN sources told BBC news etc etc that is far from a reliable source. Same with the human rights groups they are only ever in Gaza only ever comment on what Israel does never said a word when buses hotels and cafes were blowing up don't you think that maybe they are a bit influenced as well? I hate to point it out like this but it's like trying to avoid that terrorist attacks worldwide are 99% committed by Arab Muslims. It's not that they are all bad I work with quite a few of them and we get along fine. But it can't be avoided that that is who is committing these acts.

Well here we have the same thing all these organizations have international names but their core workforce and thereby quoted sources are either the locals whom have been shown to be less than honest in these situations or volunteers who usually don't get to be in the middle of situations they just go ask the aforementioned locals afterwards and then write their report. Basically whatever the locals tell them is what comes out and as I have yet to be disproved that they are extremely untrustworthy considering the massive amount of proven false propaganda they have spewed forth.

[Splinter]

Secondly, if Hamas doesn't have the means to stop belligerence coming from its own territory, why should it be in place in the beginning?

Israel didn't have the ability to stop the rocket attacks when they were in charge either.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Number_of_Morter_and_Rocket_Attacks_2001_Through_2008V5.jpg

So why do you expect Hamas to be able to crack down on splinter groups when Israel couldn't?

What splinter groups? Hamas IS the group firing the rockets. The Al Aqsa brigade is Fatah who were ran out of Gaza by the Hamas and who now exist solely in the West Bank. PLO gone. PFLP gone. Islamic Jihad answer to Hamas. Whos left?

[NGTM-1R]

What splinter groups? Hamas IS the group firing the rockets. The Al Aqsa brigade is Fatah who were ran out of Gaza by the Hamas and who now exist solely in the West Bank. PLO gone. PFLP gone. Islamic Jihad answer to Hamas. Whos left?

Explain that to the IRA. Have we forgotten, perhaps, what a struggle enforcing the peace accords was/is for a group with many times the organization and professionalism of Hamas?

Such groups are in cells, compartmentalized, decentralized, not easily controlled. The only thing that most or all of Hamas shares is a generalized idealogy, and doubtless they differ on points (probably violently, as that is the way of such things). Islamic Jihad doesn't "answer" to Hamas. Hamas doesn't answer to itself. They are not organized or regimented or coordinated in any fashion, they cannot afford to be, it makes them too easy to destroy. They have scattered rockets and launchers to the four winds so that they would difficult to wipe out. The natural slack in such organizations works against any effort to suppress or control them.

[TrashMan]

So far I can't recall any clear cut Israeli propaganda being used...

Maybe they're just that good at it? With all the resources and connections and logistics they can hide their trail better.

And so far, I can't recall any clear cut Palestianian propaganda. And spare me the links. As you say, it's all lies and propaganda in media these days. Thus, I shall follow your suggestion and not believe anything I read anymore. Ever. I'm starting today - with the holocaust. And the moon landing. I also refuse to believe you exist.

I didn't say no propaganda and I didn't say evil. See here is what so many people forget. The U.N. in Gaza isn't the UN you think of like I showed before 99% of them are the local residents so when a UN report comes out about what Israel did etc and UN sources told BBC news etc etc that is far from a reliable source.

Because locals are not as reliable as foregneirs?
Bollocks. If I learned anything from a war in my own country is that things like that are always a double-edged sword. It can go both ways. Are reports by locals more accurate because they are locals and therefore understand the situation better, or are they therefore emotionally colored? Similary, simply because an observer is a foreigner doesn't mean he'll be any more objective. Quite the contrary, he's far more suceptible to believing  whatever he's told when he first arrives, given that he knows very little. And he could always be an agent of a foreign power, who will lie because it's his job. Or he could be paid to lie - after all, the conflict is not his problem, what does he care?
People can ALWAYS lie for a million, zillion reasons.

[Turambar]

So far I can't recall any clear cut Israeli propaganda being used...

We get it all the time here in the US.  It's called "the news"

[TrashMan]

What I'm peeved at is how Israel gets away with it cause it's Israel. Same story everywhere. Powerful contries/armies with powerful friends can get away with anything. Little guys can do nothing.

I mean, let's draw some comparisons here, shall we? The Israel attack in Gaza lasted for 3 weeks, the city and infrastructure was left in ruins, over 1000 dead and 5000 wounded.

Now let's look an event from the war here, in my country. The war lasted for years. the city of Knin was shelled during an attack. The damage was minimal, the total death toll was 50 (or so the persecution claims. They refuse to list the names of the dead in that attack). All targets were confirmed military positions (data supplied by the USA unmanned drones). And general Gotovina is still accused for war crimes because of that.

What bout the Israeli general and commanders?
When are they gonna face justice? The answer is obvious - when hell freezes over!

[Splinter]

Explain that to the IRA. Have we forgotten, perhaps, what a struggle enforcing the peace accords was/is for a group with many times the organization and professionalism of Hamas?

Such groups are in cells, compartmentalized, decentralized, not easily controlled. The only thing that most or all of Hamas shares is a generalized idealogy, and doubtless they differ on points (probably violently, as that is the way of such things). Islamic Jihad doesn't "answer" to Hamas. Hamas doesn't answer to itself. They are not organized or regimented or coordinated in any fashion, they cannot afford to be, it makes them too easy to destroy. They have scattered rockets and launchers to the four winds so that they would difficult to wipe out. The natural slack in such organizations works against any effort to suppress or control them.

Yeah your probably right they are just a bunch of kids bored out of their minds messing around... oh wait... So they just happen to launch simultaneous attacks from different positions in Gaza and happen to know where their forces are deployed in Gaza? I think they are scum but I give them more credit than that. They have a military leader they have commanders under him and commanders under them to whom orders are passed down and carried out. They have been at this for a long time they have a bit more infrastructure than you think. They even have specialized training departments for science, development, culture, and education.

Maybe they're just that good at it? With all the resources and connections and logistics they can hide their trail better.

And so far, I can't recall any clear cut Palestianian propaganda. And spare me the links. As you say, it's all lies and propaganda in media these days. Thus, I shall follow your suggestion and not believe anything I read anymore. Ever. I'm starting today - with the holocaust. And the moon landing. I also refuse to believe you exist.

Hey honestly I have said it before I don't give a flying crap if you believe me or not my goal here is to make anyone realize that you cannot trust the news you get period. I'm here to make skeptics out of anyone I can because better a skeptic then someone who is judgmental and dogmatic that they know everything and this side is wrong because the news told me so.

Because locals are not as reliable as foregneirs?
Bollocks. If I learned anything from a war in my own country is that things like that are always a double-edged sword. It can go both ways. Are reports by locals more accurate because they are locals and therefore understand the situation better, or are they therefore emotionally colored? Similary, simply because an observer is a foreigner doesn't mean he'll be any more objective. Quite the contrary, he's far more suceptible to believing  whatever he's told when he first arrives, given that he knows very little. And he could always be an agent of a foreign power, who will lie because it's his job. Or he could be paid to lie - after all, the conflict is not his problem, what does he care?
People can ALWAYS lie for a million, zillion reasons.

You know what? I almost 100% agree with you there, and this is another important step in realizing what kind of deceit can and does get fed through _____ news channel/paper/site. And you are just solidifying my position that you shouldn't take anyones word for what is going on and that everyone should stop getting all self righteous about Israel or Palestinians doing all this stuff when you yourself have just admitted that you can't trust what you know.

Here is where the almost comes in. you said "simply because an observer is a foreigner doesn't mean he'll be any more objective. Quite the contrary, he's far more susceptible to believing  whatever he's told when he first arrives,". However he is still begin fed this by a local or someone who has been there for a while. So while the local has his story set the foreigner will not 100% of the time take his word for it and will sometimes check it out for himself in which case the locals are still the more unreliable source.

[karajorma]

If Israel has nothing to hide why were they so adamant about not allowing any reporters in Gaza so the world could see what was going on for themselves. Why give the Palestinians a chance to make it all up themselves later?

Or perhaps it's that Israel knew that their soldiers would be committing war crimes and they didn't want independent proof of this reaching the rest of the world.

You like to claim that the Palestinians put out a lot of propaganda but not allowing the worlds media into Gaza so that Israel could put out their own sanitized version of the truth was far bigger than anything I've seen from them.

[Splinter]

If Israel has nothing to hide why were they so adamant about not allowing any reporters in Gaza so the world could see what was going on for themselves. Why give the Palestinians a chance to make it all up themselves later?

Or perhaps it's that Israel knew that their soldiers would be committing war crimes and they didn't want independent proof of this reaching the rest of the world.

You like to claim that the Palestinians put out a lot of propaganda but not allowing the worlds media into Gaza so that Israel could put out their own sanitized version of the truth was far bigger than anything I've seen from them.

I don't expect anyone to understand this because admittedly it looks fishy but I will fight tooth and nail that this was the right move and I would do it another 100 times over and heres why.

Giving the Palestinians a chance to make it up later didn't really matter because whether the reporters come now or later they make stuff up anyway I saw it first hand in the 2nd Lebanon war. Did you? The reporters whether now or later will take whatever juicy story they can find and run it.

What did matter was that my friends gave their lives needlessly in the second Lebanese war because Hezbollah got to watch their troop movements on their favorite new channel so I could care less what you or anyone thinks about this. It saved the lives of my brothers and sisters and for the I will never apologize.

[karajorma]

Sorry but that's bollocks. There is no reason reporters simply couldn't be told that they have to wait a week before broadcasting in order to avoid giving away troop movements.

The Americans had embedded reporters during the attack on Baghdad and all throughout major operations since then in Iraq. The fact that Israel issued a blanket ban instead is more than just suspicious.

[Splinter]

Sorry but that's bollocks. There is no reason reporters simply couldn't be told that they have to wait a week before broadcasting in order to avoid giving away troop movements.

The Americans had embedded reporters during the attack on Baghdad and all throughout major operations since then in Iraq. The fact that Israel issued a blanket ban instead is more than just suspicious.

Yes because we all know the favorite news tactic isn't leaking a story... oops. Now I suppose you suggest Israel confiscate the tapes or disc's or whatever until a week later and then return them but then Israel would have been under suspicion of tampering. Sorry there is no solution here that makes everyone happy. Better the one that saved some lives.

[karajorma]

And prevented any chance of catching them committing war crimes too. Wonderful.

Remember that you could charge anyone leaking with spying.

[NGTM-1R]

Yeah your probably right they are just a bunch of kids bored out of their minds messing around... oh wait... So they just happen to launch simultaneous attacks from different positions in Gaza and happen to know where their forces are deployed in Gaza? I think they are scum but I give them more credit than that. They have a military leader they have commanders under him and commanders under them to whom orders are passed down and carried out. They have been at this for a long time they have a bit more infrastructure than you think. They even have specialized training departments for science, development, culture, and education.

Ah, I see the problem. You have no conception of how a terrorist group actually works!

[Grizzly]

Sorry but that's bollocks. There is no reason reporters simply couldn't be told that they have to wait a week before broadcasting in order to avoid giving away troop movements.

The Americans had embedded reporters during the attack on Baghdad and all throughout major operations since then in Iraq. The fact that Israel issued a blanket ban instead is more than just suspicious.

Yes because we all know the favorite news tactic isn't leaking a story... oops. Now I suppose you suggest Israel confiscate the tapes or disc's or whatever until a week later and then return them but then Israel would have been under suspicion of tampering. Sorry there is no solution here that makes everyone happy. Better the one that saved some lives.

If IDF soldiers are practicly allowed to kill everybody because they are not being watched, how does that save some lives?

[karajorma]

It saved Israeli lives. And they're the only ones that count.

[Snail]

It saved Israeli lives. And they're the only ones that count.

I do hope you mean to Israeli Command...

[karajorma]

Well to Splinter too apparently.

[TrashMan]

Heil Israel!