Author Topic: RELEASE: wxLauncher 0.10.1 beta [Updated 2015/09/26]  (Read 259796 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline The E

  • He's Ebeneezer Goode
  • Global Moderator
  • 213
  • Nothing personal, just tech support.
    • Steam
    • Twitter
Re: RELEASE: wxLauncher 0.9.1 public alpha [Updated 2012/07/13]
This is a poor decision... But I lack the motivation to argue such thought out stubbornness.

EDIT: Nevermind. This is a big enough deal to me... I read over your linked articles in order to seek understanding of your position. Having read your articles.. I still think you need to reconsider.

FRED is the backbone of everything that happens at HLP. No FRED, no missions, no campaigns, no mods. wxL's continuing to ignore 50% of the main Freespace related programs included in every FSO release is not only disappointing, but it shows an ignorance of the community at large and what it is built on.

Furthermore, if you want to hide behind the new users... FRED is not the place to make a stance. Under your decision, new users have an exec that the most up-to-date launcher doesn't seem to support. What is FRED? Do I need it? Who knows? wxL certainly doesn't know... which is odd, because wxL is trying to be the first FSO related window a new user (or any user!) will open. wxL should know...

Lastly, your article starts off by saying you should 'Nail the Basics'. FRED is one of 2 program execs that SCP releases. That's pretty basic... but it seems to me that you are too caught up on the article's #4 to really do #3, #5, #8, or #17...

"Think about how real users (not the marketing or PR departments) will describe your program."
"Don't avoid difficult decisions by making everything optional or configurable."
"People want to use your program, not configure it or learn a bunch of things."
"Put the information users need to know directly on the screen."
"Enabled is better than disabled. Disabled controls are often confusing, so use them only when users can easily deduce why the control is disabled. Otherwise, remove the control if it doesn't apply or leave it enabled and give helpful feedback."

It seems to me that you guys are so caught up with making an easy design that you are confusing incomplete with simple. It also may be a case of you guys 'Scratching Your Own Itch'. FRED is not important to you, so it's not being scratched.

Of course you also linked to an article that gives you an out to even listening to feedback... "In the absence of regular usability testing, volunteer projects rely on feedback from users, but such feedback is often far removed from reality."

Another point is that most of these articles talk about how 'usability is hard to measure', but you guys with one fell swoop have somehow figured out that the 3 necessary fields to FRED would bring wxL too close to the 'unusuable' line for the new guys. Do you have some feedback from new users to help me understand that?

You are so caught up with the theoretical 'new user' that is afraid of FRED than to consider the people who are actively using wxL, filing bug reports, dialoging with it's creators, and doing the footwork to recommend the launcher over another.

All of this, basically.

If the end goal is to have wxLauncher act as a gateway into the larger FSO community, then we also need to make the main tool by which new content for FSO is created easily discoverable.
Let there be light
Let there be moon
Let there be stars and let there be you
Let there be monsters and let there be pain
Let us begin to feel again
--Devin Townsend, Genesis

 

Offline karajorma

  • King Louie - Jungle VIP
  • Administrator
  • 214
    • Karajorma's Freespace FAQ
Re: RELEASE: wxLauncher 0.9.1 public alpha [Updated 2012/07/13]
I think having an advanced and basic mode would solve many of these issues.

Hell, pretty much the whole advanced tab should be hidden from the casual FS2-Open user.
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

[ Diaspora ] - [ Seeds Of Rebellion ] - [ Mind Games ]

 

Offline MatthTheGeek

  • Captain Obvious
  • 212
  • Frenchie McFrenchface
Re: RELEASE: wxLauncher 0.9.1 public alpha [Updated 2012/07/13]
Hiding stuff in an advanced tab is basically saying "you, user, are probably too stupid to understand that thing".

Best way to make sure no newbie will FRED, ever. Insulting our user base isn't exactly the best way to welcome them.
People are stupid, therefore anything popular is at best suspicious.

Homeworld: Blue Planet     -     Help us help you     -     FSO Installer     -     BP extras portal     -     My legacy

666maslo666: Releasing a finished product is not a good thing! It is a modern fad.

SpardaSon21: it seems like you exist in a permanent state of half-joking misanthropy

Axem: when you put it like that, i sound like an insane person

bigchunk1: it's not retarded it's american!
bigchunk1: ...

batwota: steele's maneuvering for the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: you mispelled grâce
Awaesaar: grace
batwota: oh right :P
Darius: ah!
Darius: yes, i like that
MatthTheGeek: the way you just spelled it it means fat
Awaesaar: +accent I forgot how to keyboard
MatthTheGeek: or grease
Darius: the killing fat!
Axem: jabba does the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: XD
Axem: bring me solo and a cookie

 

Offline karajorma

  • King Louie - Jungle VIP
  • Administrator
  • 214
    • Karajorma's Freespace FAQ
Re: RELEASE: wxLauncher 0.9.1 public alpha [Updated 2012/07/13]
I've never seen it that way, then again I'm a computer programmer and therefore very computer literate.

Stuff like launcher flags and lighting presets are things the average user doesn't need to touch. Altering some of them can actually have a detrimental effect on the game. And the way these are presented to the user doesn't help much either. How many average users are going to look at "Enable 3D radar" and think "Well that sounds cool, let's turn that on"? I've got no idea what that will do in Diaspora, but I doubt it would be pretty.

If you don't like the basic and advanced labels, what about Player and Developer? Or something else of that ilk. Cause while I don't agree with the idea of having to alter a text file to enable FRED, the launcher is already rather clunky and confusing for a newbie.
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

[ Diaspora ] - [ Seeds Of Rebellion ] - [ Mind Games ]

 
Re: RELEASE: wxLauncher 0.9.1 public alpha [Updated 2012/07/13]
What Kara said - a 'Player' and 'Modder' mode would solve much of this. Players can get a straightforward, easy-to-use interface, while modders can use the full power of the launcher if they so desire. It would allow wxLauncher to focus on its two (fairly distinct) user groups separately, instead of trying to be everything to everyone.

But of course, this would require a significant interface overhaul, and therefore a lot of work. So as things stand, it'll be something for the distant-future to-do list together with the netbook-friendly resolution :)

 

Offline MatthTheGeek

  • Captain Obvious
  • 212
  • Frenchie McFrenchface
Re: RELEASE: wxLauncher 0.9.1 public alpha [Updated 2012/07/13]
You're still making it look like there is a universe of difference between players and modders. I doubt this is the image we want to project.
People are stupid, therefore anything popular is at best suspicious.

Homeworld: Blue Planet     -     Help us help you     -     FSO Installer     -     BP extras portal     -     My legacy

666maslo666: Releasing a finished product is not a good thing! It is a modern fad.

SpardaSon21: it seems like you exist in a permanent state of half-joking misanthropy

Axem: when you put it like that, i sound like an insane person

bigchunk1: it's not retarded it's american!
bigchunk1: ...

batwota: steele's maneuvering for the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: you mispelled grâce
Awaesaar: grace
batwota: oh right :P
Darius: ah!
Darius: yes, i like that
MatthTheGeek: the way you just spelled it it means fat
Awaesaar: +accent I forgot how to keyboard
MatthTheGeek: or grease
Darius: the killing fat!
Axem: jabba does the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: XD
Axem: bring me solo and a cookie

 

Offline General Battuta

  • Poe's Law In Action
  • 214
  • i wonder when my postcount will exceed my iq
Re: RELEASE: wxLauncher 0.9.1 public alpha [Updated 2012/07/13]
You're still making it look like there is a universe of difference between players and modders. I doubt this is the image we want to project.

I don't think anyone will take offense. To me at least it doesn't seem like a particularly big deal.

 

Offline MatthTheGeek

  • Captain Obvious
  • 212
  • Frenchie McFrenchface
Re: RELEASE: wxLauncher 0.9.1 public alpha [Updated 2012/07/13]
It's not about offense, it's about attracting people to modding. We're not going to manage that if we make modders look like aliens.
People are stupid, therefore anything popular is at best suspicious.

Homeworld: Blue Planet     -     Help us help you     -     FSO Installer     -     BP extras portal     -     My legacy

666maslo666: Releasing a finished product is not a good thing! It is a modern fad.

SpardaSon21: it seems like you exist in a permanent state of half-joking misanthropy

Axem: when you put it like that, i sound like an insane person

bigchunk1: it's not retarded it's american!
bigchunk1: ...

batwota: steele's maneuvering for the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: you mispelled grâce
Awaesaar: grace
batwota: oh right :P
Darius: ah!
Darius: yes, i like that
MatthTheGeek: the way you just spelled it it means fat
Awaesaar: +accent I forgot how to keyboard
MatthTheGeek: or grease
Darius: the killing fat!
Axem: jabba does the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: XD
Axem: bring me solo and a cookie

 

Offline headdie

  • i don't use punctuation lol
  • 212
  • Lawful Neutral with a Chaotic outook
    • Minecraft
    • Skype
    • Twitter
    • Headdie on Deviant Art
Re: RELEASE: wxLauncher 0.9.1 public alpha [Updated 2012/07/13]
thing is there IS a difference between modders and players and players that want to just be players dont want controls and functions for anything other than playing cluttering up their experience adding to the potential for confusion.  a player who wants to be a modder will seek out the functions to do so either by experimenting with what is there and/or will go to a place where they can find the information they want.

also do you think someone who cant be bothered/too scared to experiment and poke around will have the motivation to make a mission let alone anything more substantial?
Minister of Interstellar Affairs Sol Union - Retired
quote General Battuta - "FRED is canon!"
Contact me at [email protected]
My Release Thread, Old Release Thread, Celestial Objects Thread, My rubbish attempts at art

 

Offline The E

  • He's Ebeneezer Goode
  • Global Moderator
  • 213
  • Nothing personal, just tech support.
    • Steam
    • Twitter
Re: RELEASE: wxLauncher 0.9.1 public alpha [Updated 2012/07/13]
Yeah, I am perfectly okay with calling the different tabs/modes/whatever "Player" and "Developer".
Let there be light
Let there be moon
Let there be stars and let there be you
Let there be monsters and let there be pain
Let us begin to feel again
--Devin Townsend, Genesis

 

Offline Mongoose

  • Rikki-Tikki-Tavi
  • Global Moderator
  • 212
  • This brain for rent.
    • Minecraft
    • Steam
    • Something
Re: RELEASE: wxLauncher 0.9.1 public alpha [Updated 2012/07/13]
Even as a player who does know his way around FRED and some of the more esoteric command lines, I don't need to see those options when I'm just playing through a campaign normally, so a separate "Developer" mode sounds fine to me.

 

Offline chief1983

  • Still lacks a custom title
  • Moderator
  • 212
  • ⬇️⬆️⬅️⬅️🅰➡️⬇️
    • Minecraft
    • Skype
    • Steam
    • Twitter
    • Fate of the Galaxy
Re: RELEASE: wxLauncher 0.9.1 public alpha [Updated 2012/07/13]
The only thing I have to contribute to these, regardless of our specific community, or UI theory, is that there are many examples of commercial games that provide a level editor launch button of some sort during the process of getting into the game.  They may not all be perfect examples of UI design, I know many games get it horribly wrong, but the fact that it's as prevalent as it is might be something to consider.  They may have easier to use editors however, but that's probably a separate discussion to be had.
Fate of the Galaxy - Now Hiring!  Apply within | Diaspora | SCP Home | Collada Importer for PCS2
Karajorma's 'How to report bugs' | Mantis
#freespace | #scp-swc | #diaspora | #SCP | #hard-light on EsperNet

"You may not sell or otherwise commercially exploit the source or things you created based on the source." -- Excerpt from FSO license, for reference

Nuclear1:  Jesus Christ zack you're a little too hamyurger for HLP right now...
iamzack:  i dont have hamynerge i just want ptatoc hips D:
redsniper:  Platonic hips?!
iamzack:  lays

 

Offline Fury

  • The Curmudgeon
  • 213
Re: RELEASE: wxLauncher 0.9.1 public alpha [Updated 2012/07/13]
wat
Why is this so hard?

Divide the wxLauncher window into three parts, where left part works as menu and right part displays settings under each menu selection. In left menu you have these:
wxLauncher settings
- Links to important FSWiki pages such as quickstart guide for wxLauncher
- Normal mode (default & recommended)
- Advanced mode (shows all settings)

FreeSpace Open settings
- Select FSO executable
- Presets to set High, Medium and Low performance settings
- Display resolution with desktop resolution selected as default
- If Advanced mode is enabled, shows custom command line text field
- If Advanced mode is enabled, shows all graphics/audio/gameplay/etc settings you can set in FSO separated by categories and designed to prevent input of incorrect values

FreeSpace Editor settings
- Select FRED executable (optional)
- If Advanced mode is enabled, shows custom command line text field

MOD settings
- Select mod from the same folder as where FSO executable is located
- If Advanced mode is enabled, allows enable/disable individual vp-packages within selected MOD, some ground rules should be established for this and mod_settings.ini (or whatever the name is) can set which vp-files are enabled by default

Game Controller settings
- Select game controller device, OS default is selected by default if one is plugged in

And last part of the three window sections is the bottom part where you can directly launch selected FSO and FRED executables. The buttons show up once proper executable is selected and are visible anywhere in the launcher.

Like so
_________
|    |          |
|    |          |
|    |_____|
|__|_____|

Or alternative menu is on top. Like so.
_________
|________|
|                |
|                |
|________|
|________|

The bottom area which basically could contain just shortcuts to FSO and FRED executables are much smaller than depicted above in either illustration.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2013, 03:21:01 pm by Fury »

 

Offline karajorma

  • King Louie - Jungle VIP
  • Administrator
  • 214
    • Karajorma's Freespace FAQ
Re: RELEASE: wxLauncher 0.9.1 public alpha [Updated 2012/07/13]
That's not too different from the original design actually.
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

[ Diaspora ] - [ Seeds Of Rebellion ] - [ Mind Games ]

 

Offline mjn.mixael

  • Cutscene Master
  • 212
  • Anims: 420, Cutscenes: 10, Mainhalls: 7, Logos: 52
    • Steam
    • Twitter
    • Mix-Hai Productions
Re: RELEASE: wxLauncher 0.9.1 public alpha [Updated 2012/07/13]
Eh.. I will say that the current tabbed design is WAY nicer than that original look...
Cutscene Upgrade Project - Mainhall Remakes - MixaelANITools - Between the Ashes - MjnMixael's Render Boutique - Mix-Hai Productions
Youtube Channel - P3D Model Box - Photobucket Albums - Model Releases - Downloads
Between the Ashes is looking for committed testers, PM me for details.
Report MediaVP issues, now on the MediaVP Mantis! Read all about it Here!

 

Offline Luis Dias

  • 211
Re: RELEASE: wxLauncher 0.9.1 public alpha [Updated 2012/07/13]
You could just move everything player related to the first few tabs and the developer related stuff to the last tabs.

Although I'm struggling to remember what exactly was in the launcher that wasn't "player related".

 

Offline mjn.mixael

  • Cutscene Master
  • 212
  • Anims: 420, Cutscenes: 10, Mainhalls: 7, Logos: 52
    • Steam
    • Twitter
    • Mix-Hai Productions
Re: RELEASE: wxLauncher 0.9.1 public alpha [Updated 2012/07/13]
I really don't think the answer to the FRED problem is to re-design the entire UI again and I'm surprised so many people are suggesting that as if it's a simple matter. For one thing, wxL has found a UI that is working, and working well. I'm talking important tweaks, not complete overhauls.
Cutscene Upgrade Project - Mainhall Remakes - MixaelANITools - Between the Ashes - MjnMixael's Render Boutique - Mix-Hai Productions
Youtube Channel - P3D Model Box - Photobucket Albums - Model Releases - Downloads
Between the Ashes is looking for committed testers, PM me for details.
Report MediaVP issues, now on the MediaVP Mantis! Read all about it Here!

  

Offline Doko

  • 26
Re: RELEASE: wxLauncher 0.9.1 public alpha [Updated 2012/07/13]
The first thing you should worry about is how to name the button to launch fred, and it sure as hell should not be called "launch fred", it should be called something along the lines of "Launch mission editor".
It lets the first time user know that its not the button to start the game and it explains exactly what it does. Anyone that can install freespace open can understand those 2 words.

And besides... if the new user decides the (hopefully not) big red button looks pretty... oh noes! he has opened fred...

 

Offline mjn.mixael

  • Cutscene Master
  • 212
  • Anims: 420, Cutscenes: 10, Mainhalls: 7, Logos: 52
    • Steam
    • Twitter
    • Mix-Hai Productions
Re: RELEASE: wxLauncher 0.9.1 public alpha [Updated 2012/07/13]
The first thing you should worry about is how to name the button to launch fred, and it sure as hell should not be called "launch fred", it should be called something along the lines of "Launch mission editor".
It lets the first time user know that its not the button to start the game and it explains exactly what it does. Anyone that can install freespace open can understand those 2 words.

And besides... if the new user decides the (hopefully not) big red button looks pretty... oh noes! he has opened fred...

Those are very good words.
Cutscene Upgrade Project - Mainhall Remakes - MixaelANITools - Between the Ashes - MjnMixael's Render Boutique - Mix-Hai Productions
Youtube Channel - P3D Model Box - Photobucket Albums - Model Releases - Downloads
Between the Ashes is looking for committed testers, PM me for details.
Report MediaVP issues, now on the MediaVP Mantis! Read all about it Here!

 

Offline Spoon

  • 212
  • ヾ(´︶`♡)ノ
Re: RELEASE: wxLauncher 0.9.1 public alpha [Updated 2012/07/13]
And besides... if the new user decides the (hopefully not) big red button looks pretty... oh noes! he has opened fred...
You say this so casually, but do you truely realize the potential danger this horror might inflict on the unsuspecting end user?
Before you know it, that unholy grid has stared deep into the end user's soul. Leaving forever a traumatizing mark, a haunting memory that will follow him/her for years to come.

We must make great strives to ensure that the end user be kept safe from such perils.
I therefor suggest remapping the entire interface of the launcher to just a single button: Play Freespace.
Urutorahappī!!

[02:42] <@Axem> spoon somethings wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> critically wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> im happy with these missions now
[02:44] <@Axem> well
[02:44] <@Axem> with 2 of them