[Kellan]

Originally posted by sandwich

The thing is that the Jewish people and the Jewish religion are inseperable - that's what held together the people over 500-odd years - that's what defines them. And don't tell me that it was a simple hatred of their social position as opposed to hatred of the "Jewish People" - were all those 6 million wealthy? No, but they all were forced to wear one of the symbols of thier religion, the Star of David.

And "Christ-killing"?? First of all, I don't believe that anyone "killed" Jesus - He sacrificed His life for the world, just like you or I would risk (and loose) our lives to save a family member from a burning house.

Second, the Nazis no more had the right to speak in the name of Christianity than did the Crusaders or Osama bin-Laden.

And now, to prevent leaving this post with a "yelling back at" tone:

Thanks for not yelling, Sandwich...

I never said that the Nazis had a right to act in the name of anything. However, with the power they had, they didn't need the right to. As it happens, I think that OBL is more to do with a disparity of power between the West and Arab world than Christians being religious infidels, despite what he says.

As far as Christ-killing goes, if you look at the Bible, there are certain sections (eg. where Pontius Pilate asks if the Jews want Jesus, as a Jew, back - and they say no) that can be interpreted as pointing the finger of blame for Jesus' death at the Jews. I'm not saying I believe it, or you believe it, but some people believe it - or rather, use it as a conveniently-interpreted excuse for prejudice and discrimination.

Thirdly, I wasn't referring necessarily just to the traditional myth of the "Eternal Jew" as a war profiteering capitalist or an anarchy-bent Communist (a very odd dichotomy in Nazi anti-Semitic propaganda that always makes me raise an eyebrow) but as outsiders, marginalised from society either as a result of prejudice and historical nomadism, or by choice in order to keep more Orthodox traditions going. In Poland this still continued. In Germany however, Jewish-German intermarriage was commplace, Jews had equal rights before the law, etc etc.

Finally, I firmly believe that by subscribing to the idea of a 'Jewish race' people are falling into a Nazi trap - a throwback from the Third Reich. It was the Nazis who really pushed the idea that Judaism wasn't a religion, it was a race wth defining genetic and physical characteristics. However, this is clearly false: I can convert to Judaism, for example, but I cannot 'become' black.

Now it is a bit of a misnomer to keep on referring to 'Jews' and 'Germans' because they were always just Germans who happened to be Jews. However, it simplifies things, right?

[Top Gun]

Originally posted by sandwich These is undoubtedly a spiritual realm "beyond" this physical world that we are aware of with our 5 senses - a realm with beings that can act, react, and affect things in this world. That is the only logical explanation to miracles and, more specifically, healings. Random coincidence of a miraculous healing occuring just as a person is being prayed for is so unbelieveable that it nears the level of the unbelievability of evolution.[/b]

Isn't it azazing how unexplained events never happen where a sizeable amount of people are able to see them. This world has a huge population, strange things are going to happen. That doesn't mean we should jump to conclusions and use it as evidence for the existence of gods, angels, demons ghosties or goolies, it's not. Evolution is happening now. Ever heard about MRSA in our hospitals? What about rodents that dislike the tase of poison that would have previously been irresistable to them a few years ago? There is a rapidly growing mountain of scientific evidence for evolution, not one piece of credible evidence (the Bible isn't credible) has ever been brought against it. That's not to say that it is totally proven but it's by far the most likely explanation. Putting creationism before it cannot be done without blind, unquestioning faith. Faith is the ignorance of fact. Creationism has as much credibility as there being faries at the bottom of my garden. On a final note on the "unbelievability of evolution", which is more credible, imperfect single cell organisms with the ability to mutate changing over millions of years into more complex organisms or a big wizzard up in the sky (that just so happens to be invisible) created the world and everything in it a couple of thousand of years ago because he was bored? We can't see him, we can't communicate with him (prayer doesn't get a response) but we know that when we die we'll be warped in to see him provided we've obeyed a tyrancial religious leader.

[wEvil]

If god exists as a sentient singular entity then he must be an utter bastard.  How anyone with alledgedly omnipotent powers could sit back and let us all kill each other is quite beyond me, EVEN if he was chartered to give us free will - its' quite obvious we're too socially immature to handle it.

[Kellan]

Originally posted by wEvil
If god exists as a sentient singular entity then he must be an utter bastard.  How anyone with alledgedly omnipotent powers could sit back and let us all kill each other is quite beyond me, EVEN if he was chartered to give us free will - its' quite obvious we're too socially immature to handle it.

Agreed, though we're nearing Flamesville, I feel.

[Wildfire]

Oh, before I start the name "God" is a generic term in this post.

Why do people always blame God for war, pain, suffering when it should be obvious that the cause of it all is ourselves.  We have been given (or developed) the ability to make our own choices no matter what excuses we come up with.

That makes us immediately responsible for every decision we take every second of our lives and it is an arrogant notion to expect God to come and clean up our mess as it were.  

If God were to come sweeping down and remove all the problems we ourselves have caused then He/She/It would have destroyed the very thing that seperates us from every other animal on the Earth, our ability to choose.  We would become pets, only allowed to do this and do that.

I'm a Roman cathloic, but over the years I have developed my own personal belief that doesn't really follow the bible or the workings of the church.
Basically it boils down to this...

We have been given the ability to make our own choices, to carve out our own destiny.  

It doesn't matter what religion you come from (its just a different story about the same person) or even if you believe in a God.  As long as you try to do what YOU believe is right (not what others tell you is right) and are prepared to face the consequences of your choices willingly (for good or bad).  

That is enough.

[Kellan]

Originally posted by Wildfire
Why do people always blame God for war, pain, suffering when it should be obvious that the cause of it all is ourselves.  We have been given (or developed) the ability to make our own choices no matter what excuses we come up with.

That makes us immediately responsible for every decision we take every second of our lives and it is an arrogant notion to expect God to come and clean up our mess as it were.  
[/B]

It's not God who causes war in him/her/itself but those who follow a religion. They perceive others who don't believe in their God to be infidels/making faces and thus go on a big, happy crusade. Or a Holy War. Or an intifada.

Anyway - it's not God that causes war, but the belief in God and particularly the belief in your own (naturally superior) God. Hence, religion is a cause of war. I'm not saying all religious people are like this, but a significant enough number are to make religion dangerous.

As I said before, I wouldn't leave a loaded gun on my coffee table. I don't leave a religious text there for the same reason.

[Kellan]

Whilst I'm on the subject, two other things that concern me with religions are:

1. The overwhelming tendency to try and legislate people's lives - as in the case of contraception and the Catholic Church discussed earlier, telling you what you can and can't do, and what's a sin. Now I know that I've just described some of the roles of our beloved national governments, but I for one would rather be dictated to be a government that is at least somewhat democratically answerable and thus has to reflect public opinion to a degree (see the attitudes towards cannabis as an example) than an NGO which takes a bunch of edicts written a couple of thousand years ago as its starting point. They don't reflect modern society in the same way that Jane Eyre or the Canterbury Tales don't reflect modern life. And yet you'd have to be utterly, completely mad to want women to be treated in the manner espoused in Jane Eyre.

2. The indoctrination of children into religion. I don't believe that anyone is born as a Catholic, Presbyterian or Muslim, but they are born into that environment. However, from an age when they can't possibly decide whether they believe in God or not, or if they want to believe in God or not, they are taught Bible stories, sent to Sunday School and Church and so on - basically just because their parents are religious and they want their children to be. Forcing children into religions from an early age is setting them up for a lifetime of prejudice and discrimination. We don't teach kids political ideologies when they're four.

I know that the latter is an extreme view; but it's my view. Make of it what you will.

[wEvil]

I agree with Kellan on most of his statements.

My personal belief system is a kind of mishmash of physics, buddism and astrology (i've done it now - you all think im strange!!)

[Zeronet]

Originally posted by wEvil
If god exists as a sentient singular entity then he must be an utter bastard.  How anyone with alledgedly omnipotent powers could sit back and let us all kill each other is quite beyond me, EVEN if he was chartered to give us free will - its' quite obvious we're too socially immature to handle it.

Well im glad i dont share your opinion, i'd rather dig war and suffering than not exist at all.

[Kellan]

If all we were going to do was make people suffer, it would be better to not exist at all. However, there are a lot of positive things to be had out of life, so I'd like to continue existing - especially since I don't believe there's anything else.

However, if religious people want to stop existing... Come to think of it, why do you have to earn a place in heaven?

[Zeronet]

Originally posted by Top Gun


Ahh, it was only a matter of time, wasn't it? If you can rationally explain to me why abstinence is better than contraception without using the bible then I'll abstain myself (no chance). Anyway, thank you for presenting me with one of the reasons as to why I reject Judeo/Christianity repulsively. I guess miracles do happen, the biggest one being that an overwhelmingly high percentage of a supposedly intelligent populous thinks that one of the most important human biological functions is, in some way dirty if you have it outside of a silly ceremony. Banning contraception is like banning seatbelts in cars and then saying that the high road death rate is peoples' own fault for driving. Just think how many cases of food poisoning could be prevented if it suddenly became a sin to eat outside a Judeo/Christian ceremony. The Catholic Church's prevention of some of the most vulnerable populations in the world from getting contraception in favor of brainwashing ting them into thinking that sex is a sin is nothing less than an atrocity to which they should be taken to task for. But the Catholic church doesnt prevent it, we merely offer a better route, whenever humanitarian crisis occurs CAFOD are always the first their offering assistance with no questions asked of race or creed and nothing asked in return, period.


But of course having a serious argument with a catholic is like arguing with an android. The church goes to extraordinary lengths to make sure its members can't think for themselves: Catechism anyone? A perl script could present the same arguments, it may as well sit them in an  auditorium and hypnotize them.

Well, thanks for the flaming. Now i urge you to relish your prejudice, as i doubt you really know anything about our church.

[Kellan]

Ouch.

That's why I said we were getting close to Flamesville.

[wEvil]

at the risk of sounding nihilistic - it is utter hubris on the side of the human race to beleive we're anything other than an accident, a cosmic aberration.

Personally i'm ashamed to be a member of this species, most of the time.

[Kellan]

Wow, that is nihilistic.

You don't have to be held to account for the actions of other human beings as long as you try to do something about it, though. If you don't, you're buying into the misdeeds of various people and groups.

And calling the human race an accident is a little pessimistic as far as finding other life, intelligent or othewise in the galaxy goes.

[wEvil]

Unfortunately when people keep passing the buck everyone gets so annoyed someone has to take reponsibility or the whole thing disintigrates.

The entire point, in fact, of every social, economic and political structure seems to be to remove accountability to any individual for the complete state we live in these days.

[Kellan]

Once again, agreed. The fact that it's very much more difficult to prosecute corporate mansalighter cases than individuals for manslaughter, for example explains this consolidation amoing firms.

BTW, a website that I find particularly interesting for anti-corporate information is www.monbiot.com - George Monbiot writes some very perceptive and persuasive stuff about almost everything leftist. I would urge everyone to read it - even if you don't agree, at least you can understand better where we're coming from and "know your enemy".

[Top Gun]

Hmm, my personal belief on this issure (the coprpate one) is that there's nothing wrong with corporations so long as their governmental influence is limmited and they treat their employees and customers ethically (The BSA is a prime example of the flouting of all of them).


Onto my stance on religion: I think Richard Dawkins (one of my favorite scientists) has hit the nail on the head pretty well on this issue. http://www.world-of-dawkins.com

The meme for blind faith secures its own perpetuation by the simple unconscious expedient of discouraging rational inquiry

[CP5670]

Second, the Nazis no more had the right to speak in the name of Christianity than did the Crusaders or Osama bin-Laden.

But then who does? You can say the same thing for anyone...

But of course having a serious argument with a catholic is like arguing with an android. The church goes to extraordinary lengths to make sure its members can't think for themselves: Catechism anyone?

Exactly what I was saying earlier; the religious institutions will ensure that their people cannot think logically, because if they could, their faith would crumble, and this faith is what the institutions rely on for their existence.

That is the only logical explanation to miracles and, more specifically, healings.

What "miracles" and "healings?" There is no credible evidence for these. Also, there is still the unanswerable question: how did this god come into existence?

Finally, I firmly believe that by subscribing to the idea of a 'Jewish race' people are falling into a Nazi trap - a throwback from the Third Reich. It was the Nazis who really pushed the idea that Judaism wasn't a religion, it was a race wth defining genetic and physical characteristics. However, this is clearly false: I can convert to Judaism, for example, but I cannot 'become' black.  

Looking at the roots of the Third Reich, it is quite evident that while Hitler's ideas sounded quite silly, they actually had deep roots in German history and thought. (check out The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich - outstanding book )

If god exists as a sentient singular entity then he must be an utter bastard.

LOL.

The indoctrination of children into religion.

That is one of the things I hate most about religion. If this had not occurred so much in history, religion would have been dead long ago. As I said before, the ideas that the children assimilate later on in life are built upon these religious ones, and they have been brought up to think that their ideas must be true no matter what - in other words, limiting their ability to think objectively.

Personally i'm ashamed to be a member of this species, most of the time.

I would say the same, as the majority of humans are complete fools, but the species as a whole definitely has future potential due to its need to progress.

The meme for blind faith secures its own perpetuation by the simple unconscious expedient of discouraging rational inquiry

This one is great; I like it just as much as that famous Planck quote.

That's why I said we were getting close to Flamesville.

No reason to close the topic there, though; it's getting interesting.

[Kellan]

Originally posted by CP5670

Exactly what I was saying earlier; the religious institutions will ensure that their people cannot think logically, because if they could, their faith would crumble, and this faith is what the institutions rely on for their existence.

Why would they be called religious faiths otherwise? Their very name implies that you have to have faith - ie. belief without explanation - in the edicts of the religion.

Looking at the roots of the Third Reich, it is quite evident that while Hitler's ideas sounded quite silly, they actually had deep roots in German history and thought. (check out The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich - outstanding book )[/b]

I disagree. Anti-Semitism is not a uniquely German phenomenon, occurring throughout Europe for hundreds of years in pogroms, and in the current vogue for 'Jewish Capitalist Overlord' conspiracies going around in America, and anti-Semitism in the Muslim world.

Nor is persecution of a religious minority a phenomenon unique to Judaism. All countries and peoples have persecuted, to a greater and lesser extent minorites of a religious and racial nature (although once again, Jews are not a race). Just look at the anti-immigrant attitudes here and in the rest of the world during the 1930s (anti-Semitism was rife in 1935 - Australia said of the Jews that it was not "desirous of importing a racial problem". America said they were of below-average intelligence).

To say that the Holocaust was a uniquely German phenomenon is, IMHO, rubbish. Pogroms had occurred all over the world for years (the latest actually being 1947 in Poland). In addition, the vast majority of those that voluntarily assisted in the exterminated were Latvians, Ukrainians, Estonians and Poles. Blaming the Germans specifically is dangerous - it denies the possibility that the same thing could happen anywhere, at any time, again.

[Martinus]

Religion always has been a topic that really interests me. For some it defines who they are and how they interact with society for others it is a basic set of rules that may lead to a better life or perhaps the afterlife (if you choose to believe in such a thing). Some revile it as 'mind control for the masses' or the reason why we have had so much war.
Doesn't anyone find it strange that some horrifically bad events in history have been carried out in the name of religion and in the extreme reverse you have acts of astounding compassion occuring for the same cause? Isn't it obvious that the God/prophet/icon you believe in (or perhaps the fact that you don't believe in anything at all) isn't what is truely important? The way that you choose to act on those beliefs is what really matters.

I have a great deal of respect for athieists that are good people, without having the belief (or fear) that you will go to hell if you are a bad person they still have the want to just get along with everyone.
A few very religious people could learn a lot from this if they cared to look past the nonsensical meanderings that were written hundreds or thousands of years ago that they rigidly live their lives by. The bible has always been a sore point for me; it's outdated, often unintelligable and was written for a society that found killing someone a friviolus affair. Would you still think it acceptable to cut someones hands off today if they stole some food? I hope not.

I was brought up a catholic, my mum and dad are catholics as is the majority of my extended family. These people firmly believe in the history of Jesus and his message. More importantly though they recognised that the message was the most important part of the religion, to treat others the way you want to be treated is ultimately what it is all about. They don't pressure me into going to church because they know that although I don't carry out the rituals, I did get the message.

Lastly I think it's important to address the idea that once you die everything that you are and were dies with you. It's true that your name may not be remembered but your actions surely will, if you can reach out and help a few people and show them the value of compassion then you have made a far greater impact than you will ever be able to realise. Those people in turn know that helping people is rewarding and thus have the inclination to do the same for others. Extreme specifics may be lost but more subtle effects remain.