Author Topic: OT-Religion...  (Read 134580 times)

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Offline wEvil

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Quote
Originally posted by icespeed
oh yes, and about gen eng:
it's probably okay up until the point you start cloning people. that'w when you're playing god, which no one can. cloning- who knows if we got the animals right, the brains and mind and everything? and the animals had problems with cancer and arthritis and dying at an early age, anyway. Dolly did, I think.


The problems with Dolly I beleive have been identified, although lobby activity prevents further concrete progress.

more to follow later

 

Offline Top Gun

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Quote
Originally posted by icespeed
well, its like this. If you don't believe in something, that doesn't mean it doesnt exist, does it? like covering your eyes with your hands and not seeing... i dunno, a house or something, that doesnt mean the house doesnt exist, does it?

Try turning that around on yourself.

 
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Originally posted by icespeed like how sick people need to be determined and believe they'll live, and they have a better chance of surviving.

http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=placebo but of course you have to be ill to be cured and I am not. Predicted Response: "But you're a sinner" - No I'm not. There is NO proof of any religion, it revolves around faith, the renouncement of reason. If a god exists (which I very much doubt) then let him tell me what he wants me to do, not you. The bible is not accurate and contradicts itself thousands of times. For this to de inspired by an Omniscient god is Laughable.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2002, 04:00:55 am by 266 »

 

Offline icespeed

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dude, don't take the commandments in the wrong way.
1. you don't _have_ to worship the christian/judeo god. but if you don't, you go to hell. :)
2. murder in cold blood. killing people for things like sexual immorality and stuff, i think, is reasonable.
4. monogamy is good because it doesn't muck around with your emotions so much... (and cos of all the stuff people said before, about the reducing of STD's and stuff.)
5. It means don't make idols. Don't make statues or paintiings or whatever and worship them.
6. basically, don't swear. that's a good one- don't be offensive to people.
7. everyone needs a rest every now and then, you know. he's just making it more organised.
10. everyone's your neighbour. you shouldn't want other people's stuff. that wastes time envying and being nasty to people, when you could be nice and loving to people.
$quot;Let your light shine before men...$quot;
Matthew 5:16

When I graduate, I'm going to be a doctor, and people are going to come to me looking for treatment and prescription drugs, and I'm going to give it to them. Is anyone scared yet?

$quot;If you confess with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord', and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.$quot; Romans 10:9

 

Offline icespeed

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everyone's a sinner. don't tell me you've never lied.
if you're a sinner, you need to be cured.
there has to be a god. the universe doesn't exist by chance.
and for those of you thinking, where did god come from, he didn't. he was just there. all the time. and will be.
$quot;Let your light shine before men...$quot;
Matthew 5:16

When I graduate, I'm going to be a doctor, and people are going to come to me looking for treatment and prescription drugs, and I'm going to give it to them. Is anyone scared yet?

$quot;If you confess with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord', and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.$quot; Romans 10:9

 

Offline Fineus

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Quote
Originally posted by icespeed
you need to be cured

Question: How?

This is probably one of the main things that puzzles/annoys me about the "maintstream" religions. Not adhearing to their rule immediatly makes you a sinner who needs to be cleansed or shall go to hell or another similar fate for all eternity.

And many religions can't decide on what is considered a hell-worthy trespass and what is acceptable. Meat used to forbidden on certain days and now it isn't. Is this because the old way was wrong or because people started leaving that faith due to the annoying restrictions?

And all this is just a small portion of my view on modern religion.

 

Offline Kellan

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Oh dear, oh dear... :rolleyes:

Quote
Originally posted by icespeed
1. you don't _have_ to worship the christian/judeo god. but if you don't, you go to hell. :)


Oh, what a choice that is! Truly, God is merciful and great! I'm so happy that I have such a wide range of similarly appealing choices!

Quote
2. murder in cold blood. killing people for things like sexual immorality and stuff, i think, is reasonable.[/b]


WHAT!?!?![/i]

Define what cold blood is, for a start. Second, why the hell is it reasonable to kill someone for sexual misdemeamours and not manslaughter, environmental destruction, etc?

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7. everyone needs a rest every now and then, you know. he's just making it more organised.[/b]


And why should God have to choose when I rest? Does he know me better than I do (don't answer that)? What if I don't want to rest on the Sabbath, but another day? And how does this fit with modern society, when my employer forces me to work Sundays and I have to work there to buy food?

The basic fact is the Commandments are backward, contradictory and more than a little ridiculous, if you ask me. Whilst I admire the sentiment of peace, love and understanding, and always try to do that myself, they're hardly the best method for getting the point across any more.

 

Offline wEvil

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As far as i'm concerned the only "sin", or the worst possible thing you can do is something that hurts another sentient (or even non-sentient) being.

There is no excuse for harmful behaviour.  I'd like to be able to practise the level of tolerance to others that I aspire to, but when people act irresponsibly and with intent to harm, they void their right to a good existance.  Call me a moron but I actually beleive in Karma.

In terms of an afterlife, one of my few firm beleifs is that if you go to hell it will only be self-inflicted.  Nobody knows you better than you do, after all, therefore nobody is better qualified to "judge" how to live your life.  

On the same point though, is it really that important for a judgement?  I don't beleive it is.  The popular myth about an all-powerful being seems to have been fabricated out of the human need to know ones-self.

As far as i'm concerned, you're here to learn and experience from the persepective of a human living on earth at this moment in history...where you go after you evolve I don't have a clue - should be interesting at any rate.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2002, 04:38:54 am by 118 »

 

Offline icespeed

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this is really quick cos i hve to go, but:
thunder: cure is by believing jesus can save you- you can't do it yourself. no one can.
kellan: i think you're just being contradictory just for the hell of it.
but i don't have time to say why, cos i am seriously getting kicked off here.
so, see you guys tomorrow if i can.
love always god bless
icespeed
$quot;Let your light shine before men...$quot;
Matthew 5:16

When I graduate, I'm going to be a doctor, and people are going to come to me looking for treatment and prescription drugs, and I'm going to give it to them. Is anyone scared yet?

$quot;If you confess with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord', and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.$quot; Romans 10:9

 

Offline Kellan

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Quote
Originally posted by icespeed
everyone's a sinner. don't tell me you've never lied.
if you're a sinner, you need to be cured.
there has to be a god. the universe doesn't exist by chance.
and for those of you thinking, where did god come from, he didn't. he was just there. all the time. and will be.


What if a lie protects people from a greater lie, or a greater pain? Is it justified in that case?

In addition, I am once again being asked to believe here that there is a magical being up in the sky, who just IS, without any kind of proof. And if I don't believe in that, I get sent to hell.

You could say it's a matter of faith, really... :p

 

Offline Shrike

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[q]Dammit, we'll sin if we want![/q]
WE ARE HARD LIGHT PRODUCTIONS. YOU WILL LOWER YOUR FIREWALLS AND SURRENDER YOUR KEYBOARDS. WE WILL ADD YOUR INTELLECTUAL AND VERNACULAR DISTINCTIVENESS TO OUR OWN. YOUR FORUMS WILL ADAPT TO SERVICE US. RESISTANCE IS FUTILE.

 

Offline Top Gun

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Quote
Originally posted by icespeed murder in cold blood. killing people for things like sexual immorality and stuff, i think, is reasonable.

Well, thank you for giving me the response I predicted, it only furthers my point. Sex is a bodily function, like eating, sleeping etc. You can not rationally attribute sinfullness to it without renouncing your reason and having literal faith in a book that contradicts itself over a hundered times. Think for yourself for a second (if you haven't forgotten how to). If there was a big man in the sky that made the world and wanted everyone to worship him then why would he tell everyone to in the Bible, (a book made up of ancient scriptures that have been cut up, stuck back together and twisted to an extent wehere they're no longer reliable) as opposed to making his existence known and giving us clear instructions on how to live.



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Originally posted by icespeed everyone's your neighbour. you shouldn't want other people's stuff. that wastes time envying and being nasty to people, when you could be nice and loving to people.

So why don't you practice what wou preach and stop saying we'll all go to hell Predicted Response: Because I'm doing you a favour. It all boils down to faith again, it means nothing. Faith is believing the unbelievable.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2002, 04:48:43 am by 266 »

 

Offline Kellan

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Quote
Originally posted by icespeed
kellan: i think you're just being contradictory just for the hell of it.
but i don't have time to say why, cos i am seriously getting kicked off here.


Icespeed: I believe that one of the routes to a greater understanding is by constantly questioning what is around you. Perhaps then you can wring some answers from it. If those answers make sense and you agree, fine - you've found one more bit of the greater understanding. If not, discard whatever it was.

I'm questioning the Commandments becuase these questions need to be asked. I don't understand - or agree with - your reasoning, but if you explain I might a little more.

And it's not me who's contradictory, it's the Commandments. :p

 

Offline Fineus

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Hmm, I think there's potential to go off topic here - lets try and avoid that because this is looking kinda interesting right now.

When I say off topic I mean discussion wether murder for whatever reason is wrong and wether that should be applied to those who destroy the planet with pollution and so on. That's a whole new topic in it's own.

I've always felt that murder for whatever reason is wrong. However I do believe that those with life sentences in prison should be given the option of a fast death via drugs or whatever. Infact I think this is the only time that murder might be an acceptable thing - but at that it's more of an assisted suicide than a murder.

My point here is that killing, war, murder are all pointless.  It's argued that it's necessary but this is simply not the case. No amount of religous sanction can make that ok in my view - especially since those being killed are most likely not of the same religion as those doing the killing.

The upshot of this is that most religious laws are not needed, confine mankind and prevent improvement of society. However people still kill in the name of religion... this seems somewhat ironic to me.

On the other hand many religions carry with them some basic guidelines of what is good and bad, but these are simple moral agreements between most people and are most likely only included in religion to make them appear more accessable. The fact that Christianity wrote these into it's story in the form of the commandments seems quiet amazing to me and I'm suprised more people don't think that it was simply done to try and copyright the idea of these morals.

 

Offline wEvil

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Your choice of words;

"copyright the idea of these morals" is very interesting to me as that seems to be what most of western culture has evolved into.

We are very obsessed these days with owning ideas (the current state of third world countries due to recent WIPO legislation is a good example of this) now that most people can get whatever material possessions they require.  

If anything we are 'stripmining' creative people and creative concepts and pulping them for all they are worth.

I know again this is falling slightly off topic but one of the reasons I'm taking part in this conversation is because i'm proud of what, in my opinion, is a fairly unique and for me, correct viewpoint of my reality.

Now, am I proud of it because its' simply different, or because it happens to fit my observational research?

Am I still being influenced by "copyrightmania", trying to find a concept to call my own, or am I just being progressive in my thinking?

Is your religion nothing more than an extension of how you're feeling most of your life?

 

Offline Kellan

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Quote
Originally posted by Thunder
When I say off topic I mean discussion wether murder for whatever reason is wrong and wether that should be applied to those who destroy the planet with pollution and so on. That's a whole new topic in it's own.


Agreed.

Is that a sanction for me to do so? ;7

 

Offline Fineus

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I agree wEvil, that's how it seems to be. There are of course exceptions - but in these times this act of copyrighting everything is becoming more and more prominant.

Kellan - if you want to start that kinda topic thats fine by me. So far we're just having healthy discussion. As long as it's stays that way and everyone's happy then it's fine by me :)

 

Offline Kellan

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Quote
Originally posted by Thunder
Kellan - if you want to start that kinda topic thats fine by me. So far we're just having healthy discussion. As long as it's stays that way and everyone's happy then it's fine by me :)


And I shall propagate this healthy discussion onto other threads, about other things. And now I will return to the topic. :)

 

Offline ZylonBane

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Quote
Originally posted by icespeed
there has to be a god. the universe doesn't exist by chance.
Why not?

Religion has always been used to explain what simple, primitive minds couldn't grasp. God made the sun rise and fall. God made the seasons. God made rain and lightning. God made people get sick. God made people get healthy. Blah blah etc etc.

Why do you think religions are historically so anti-science? Because they like their control, and the more science explains, the less need there is for a made-up god.

Another cause for the popularity of religion is that people like to think they're right, and religious faith is the ultimate non-disprovable "right".
ZylonBane's opinions do not represent those of the management.

 

Offline Fineus

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Which sort of leads to the next major battle/question. Science Versus Religion. You might wonder where the question comes - I'll tell you:

Lets assume for a second that the Big Bang happened. That's how it was, there was a lot of something and it exploded which formed the Universe.
The question is - how did that get there? Was there a start to the Universe? How did it come to be, and if the Big Bang occured - not only how did that happen but how did what was before it happen? To this people still look to the Un-caused causer. God. But maybe they're wrong.

Also, what if there is more than one god? What if these gods don't have ultimate power but affect a certain aspect of reality. One might make the stars or the planets and another might make the trees the way they are.

That might seem a fantastic - even unbelievable notion. But it's just as likely as one individual creator. One God.

 

Offline Top Gun

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Has anyone got that Occam's Razor gif?