[CP5670]

I look closely at the evolution model and said, "Hey this doesn't agree with God's word ('cuz I also believed the Bible, just never questioned what I learned in school about evlution)!" Now I was in a bind. What do I believe! I was taught that Creation was the way to go but I was also taught that Evolution was scientific. I dug deeper and deeper. And then I reading (about the same time my mom started homeschooling me) Christian science books. And you know what?! I read the geology section which lead into Evolution and Creation. There is where I found out about evolutions lack of rock solid evidence. That's because no one was there to see it happen, as with creation. So both must be accepted by faith!

Okay, I don't think that people of such intelligence are even worth dealing with. This post speaks for itself.

BTW Just because a site doesn't explain things in terms that the ordinary Joe can't understand doesn't mean that it doesn't use good science to back up it's claims.

I think you need to repeat that to yourself when looking at true science.

Oh yes, I read far beyond the front page here. For example, take a look here (this kind of stuff makes me scared  )

I checked out the UT review just for fun there; one of the user reviews says that "aliens are a Christian theme."

[Fineus]

Originally posted by hotsnoj
Wow the __ guy is really smart. You can't even PM him!

It's alright, I've given him the name Blitz_Lightning in accordance with part of his email so it's less confusing for everyone else.

[DemonInGray]

oooo... a religion thread.  can i post here, even though i'm your basic everyday nonexistent newbie?

I am not a christian, nor an atheist.  the best way to describe what i am is an ideogrammatical pagan (don't ask me if that's spelled right, i have no clue >)~  )

as far as creation versus evolution, i figure there's a simple answer.  it's one that's been around for a couple centuries now.  it's called deism.  

the long and short of it is that the gods (or God with a capital G if you happen to be christian or some other monotheistic branch) did not actually step in and create the earth.  instead, they created the natural processes needed for the earth to be formed.  they devised a unviers with all the laws of physics.  they set the stage for the big bang to occur.  they set up the process of evolution as a means for humans to come into existence.  

basically, whatever deity or deities you happen to believe in, set up the universe like a machine or a clock, initiating the scientific processes that have been discovered in order to establish the kind of universe they desire.  

dunno if that helps anybody, but that's my take on things >)~

more in a second...

[an0n]

God made everything and set it so that certain things would have to happen in accordance with the laws of physics.

Don't believe in God/gods but if I did, that'd be the belief system I'd follow.

[Redfang]

Originally posted by CP5670
I checked out the UT review just for fun there; one of the user reviews says that "aliens are a Christian theme."

I looked at that too, what a site. Almost all games were at least slightly offensive, and many were much more offensive rated there.

[DemonInGray]

now, let's take a look in this Bible at the story of creation.  i was born into a christian family and know quite a bit about this, but please, let me know if i screw anything up.

first off, obviously, no human was present to witness the creation.  how then do we come to have written record of it?  i'll grant you your belief in the existence of God (capital G) if you'll work with me for a minute.  

God would have had to plant the ideas in the mind of someone who then wrote those ideas own on paper.  i believe it is generally accepted that Moses or someone who worked with him penned the story of Genesis, though i'm not sure on that score.  

tell me, how would God plant ideas in someone's head?  i'll tell you how, he did it all through the Old Testament, he sent them dreams.  now, the Bible says,

a wind from God swept over the waters.

could those waters be the nebula that the sun formed from?  nebulaic clouds can look like liquid.  then there's the "Let there be light" thing.  the birth of the sun, peraps?

now, onward to the life forms.  the Bible says God brings forth plants, then sea creatures, then air creatures, then land creatures, then humans.  To a person viewing this in a dream, it would all seem to take place very quickly, even if God had taken millions of years to do it.

incidentally, the order in which life is brought forth matches the theory of Evolution.  first there were colonies of cells, unable to move themselves (plants).  then tiny creatures of the sea, that eventually grew larger.  then insects and other such things (air creatures).  then land creatures.  then, at the last, humans.  

just a couple ideas to tickle the mind >)~ take them apart as you wish

[DemonInGray]

Originally posted by an0n
God made everything and set it so that certain things would have to happen in accordance with the laws of physics.

Don't believe in God/gods but if I did, that'd be the belief system I'd follow.

exactly.  you've hit the basis of theory right on the head.

[an0n]

Originally posted by DemonInGray
exactly.  you've hit the basis of theory right on the head.

Yay me!

[CP5670]

But the big question still remains: how was the god made? If the usual answer is going to be given again, I will quote myself:

Now, my question is that, if you are willing to accept a transfinite god, why should a transfinite reality without a god not be equally plausible? (in terms of time)

[an0n]

Anything which lasts until the end of time and space, or which does not operate within the confines of time and space can reasonably be considered a God. Some things are infinite.

[Fineus]

Originally posted by an0n
Anything which lasts until the end of time and space, or which does not operate within the confines of time and space can reasonably be considered a God. Some things are infinite.

Not always, who's to say such beings don't exist? But the typical premise is that God is all powerful, all good and so on. The fact that this arguement brakes down with the problem of evil and so on. But we're covering ground that's already been covered before here. My point is that it's perfectly possible to have a being or conciousness that operates outside space and time as we know it but is not God in any form.

Chidlish point edit: Woo! 14th page

[an0n]

Some kind of "I don't give a ****" kind of apethetic being? I tend to think that if such a being did exist it'd either have to be ignorant to our existence, non-sentient or really smug.

And who says you can't have an evil/malevolant god? The Hindu religion has plenty, and the Greeks, and Romans.

Hmmm. There's a thing. If God is all powerful, how the hell was there a war against Lucifer? Not so much all powerful as really powerful.

Also: If yer on 10 per page, it's the 70'th page......or is it the 71st?

[Fineus]

Some kind of "I don't give a ****" kind of apethetic being? I tend to think that if such a being did exist it'd either have to be ignorant to our existence, non-sentient or really smug.

Yeah, well that is possible. We've got no proof to support it but then again - no proof to disprove it either.

And who says you can't have an evil/malevolant god? The Hindu religion has plenty, and the Greeks, and Romans.

Christians mainly, the whole problem of evil deal is levelled squarely at Christianities God. Since the claim that he's all powerful and all good is instantly dis-proved by the existance of evil.

Hmmm. There's a thing. If God is all powerful, how the hell was there a war against Lucifer? Not so much all powerful as really powerful.

The problem of evil in a nutshell. If God is all powerful and all good then he could have and should have destroyed evil or negated it's appearence in the first place. There should be no evil ever with this supposed God around. Since there is quite obviously of natural and human kind around this dis-proves God.

However. It's argued by Christians that Evil was bought about when mankind fell and that since then the balance has been un-done by the fouls of mankind. Thus all evil is our fault, anything else such as earthquakes can be attributed to Gods plan, same as miricales really. Forgive me if I'm wrong about any of this btw - I'm a little rusty on it.

So anyways, yeah - in a nutshell you cannot have a Christian God who's all good and all powerful, at least not as long as you don't accept their reasons for evil.

Also: If yer on 10 per page, it's the 70'th page......or is it the 71st?

...Meh.

[an0n]

That's why I hate most western religions. It's all "Man has brought evil to the world. Repent, sinners". Yeah, coz they've got perfect morales and ethics.

I really hate the Salvation army though. They say they do Gods work and help the unfortunate, but there are so many problem with them and their ways:

• God can do his own friggin work
• They charge the homeless for a place to stay. £6 a night last I heard.
• Most of the donations made to them go towards buying their members new instruments so they can have a nice band.

[/b]

[Fineus]

Whilst I've got less against the salvation army than you do - you've got a good point, guilt.

Probably the most powerful tool in some religions, it's not faith and it's not love. It's making people feel guitly - like they've got something they should be repenting for, something they should alter their lives to make amends for. If it isnt amongst the ten commandments or some other rule set, it's bound to be worked in somewhere. Mankind is portrayed as a fallen race, doomed to suffering and pain and only those who do as a religion instructs have any hope in this life or any other.

It's one of the things that pisses me off the most about many religions, and one of the reasons I'm looking more and more at the ones that I am.

[CP5670]

Yeah, I agree there. Something was needed to enforce these laws of religion, and fear of punishment alone was not enough because it was a bit too intangible, so they added in guilt as well.

However. It's argued by Christians that Evil was bought about when mankind fell and that since then the balance has been un-done by the fouls of mankind. Thus all evil is our fault, anything else such as earthquakes can be attributed to Gods plan, same as miricales really. Forgive me if I'm wrong about any of this btw - I'm a little rusty on it.

It could be indirectly attributed to god though, if god made us.

[Stryke 9]

Originally posted by Thunder
However. It's argued by Christians that Evil was bought about when mankind fell and that since then the balance has been un-done by the fouls of mankind. Thus all evil is our fault, anything else such as earthquakes can be attributed to Gods plan, same as miricales really. Forgive me if I'm wrong about any of this btw - I'm a little rusty on it.

Well, he made humanity fallible and gave us a prediliction for sin, so it's his mistake in the first place either way, no? I've heard the arguments about how God wanted to test us, etc., but it seems to me that an omniscient God would know the results of a test on his own creation before they even happened and that an omnipotent and infallible being wouldn't be inclined to stick himself in the eye like that.

On the other hand, we're not exactly the best candidates to decide what is "good" and "evil" anyway. Even given that there is a God and it gave us a list of don'ts a few thousand years ago, it might have had in mind that there'd be violations, and it's part of the 'plan' that we sin.

I'm gonna get flak from the atheist "side" for that post, no doubt.

[DemonInGray]

as an argument against the Christian deity, just for kicks....

an omnicient and omnipotent being would be self-fulfilled.  it would never need to do anything for any reason, because it would already know exactly what would happen.  if it had any negative feeling, it could fill itself with positive feeling.  if it had the need for excitement, it could dream up excitement.

in short, if the Christians are right, why did your god make humans in the first place? he wouldn't need them for anything.

[Stryke 9]

...because he's a Western god?

[Kellan]

Going back to that Christian Games Review site, I found this...

In a nutshell, Soldier of Fortune is the most revolting game to ever appear on my computer screen. I have been involved with computers for the better part of fifteen years; therefore, I have seen, amongst the boring productive applications, a host of titles that span all genres of gaming. The first FPS (first person shooter) that I encountered was Wolfenstein, with images of horror carried out in simulated Nazi camps and dungeons. Then came the Doom series, with ghastly alien monsters and subtle pentagramic symbols that created the illusion of the lair of Satan himself. Quake brought the satanic realm to light in gaming with unnecessary pentagrams incorporated into the maps themselves. All three of these games depicted realistic blood and gore that incited young hackers (hax0rs, as they call themselves) to perform wanton acts of violence.

Normal service now resumes.