Author Topic: OT-Religion...  (Read 138587 times)

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Offline Pera

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Re: Re: Re: A humorous example...
Quote
Originally posted by hotsnoj
It will be the same with God! You will one day bow on your knee before him and confess that He is Lord!


Yes, it's possible(you weren't excpecting me to say that, didn't you ;) )

BUT:

That only happens, if someone scientifically proves gods existance. So how about going out there, and trying to prove that there is a god, instead of arguing about it. Just remember two things:

1. Bible is no good.

2. Fighting against evolution is no good

I've almost given up my hopes of possibly having a discussion with this Blitz guy, but let's try anyway. Two things for you too:

1. Have you checked out every single one of those books you are referring to? If not, how can you be sure that website is correct? It's possible(and very likely in fact) that the content of those books and studies are higly mispresentated in that site.

2. Once again, though now I already know it's not going to help: "JUST BECAUSE THE THEORY OF EVOLUTION IS NOT FOOLPROOF, IT DOESN'T MEAN THAT CREATIONISM IS CORRECT, DO NOT WASTE TIME ARGUING AGAINST EVOLUTION, BUT INSTEAD FIND SOME PROOF FOR CREATIONISM"

Thank you :)
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Offline Pera

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Just something I found in the net. And less OT than you might think:

Quote
Ovulation vs. Cretinism

Excerpt from Georgia Skeptic Electronic Newsletter, Fall 1993

Author Unknown

Two different theories exist concerning the origin of children: the theory of sexual reproduction and the theory of the stork. Many people believe in the theory of sexual reproduction because they have been taught this theory at school. In reality, however, many of the world's leading scientists are in favour of the theory of the stork. If the theory of sexual reproduction is taught in schools, it must only be taught as a theory and not as the truth. Alternative theories, such as the theory of the stork, must also be taught. Evidence supporting the theory of the stork include the following:

1.It is a scientifically established fact that the stork does exist. This can be confirmed by every ornithologist.
2.The alleged human fetal development contains several features that the theory of sexual reproduction is unable to explain.
3.The theory of sexual reproduction implies that a child is approximately nine months old at birth. This is an absurd claim, since everyone knows that a newborn child is newborn.
4.According to the theory of sexual reproduction, children are a result of sexual intercourse. There are, however, many well-documented cases where sexual intercourse has not led to the birth of a child.
5.Statistical studies in the Netherlands have indicated a positive correlation between the birth rate and the number of storks. Both are declining.
6.The theory of the stork can be investigated by rigorous scientific methods. The only assumption involved is that children are delivered by the stork.


Does this look like familiar? ;)
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Offline Top Gun

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Did I mention at the start of this thread that I'm a Perl Monk?

 

Offline Crazy_Ivan80

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Looks like Blitzlightning here knows as much about science as his buddy, in other words too little to be of importance.

I don't think I've ever seen so much bull in such a small space. Like I said before: only fanatics would even assume that science is out to get them.

Well, boohoo, it is not. On the contrary: some of the most important scientific thoughts have been fomulated by people who believed (not in the fanatic way of of the creationists: that's a disgrace to humanity). Examples of these are the Big Bang: postulated by an Italian cleric around the beginning of the 20th century; and genetics: the inventor of which was an Austrian cleric somewhere in the 19th century.

Conclusion: even mainstream religion has moved beyond the fanatic and detrimental view that our "friends" still hold. View, to be frank, lead to excesses like we're seeing in Saudi Arabia and until recently in Afghanistan.

Both of you Hotsnoj and Blitz_Lightning) claim to have been in contac with real science before you were swayed to the Dark Side... er... creationism; after such a statement you go on telling us about how you changed your mind after it came in conflict wit your religious views. Well -newsflash- that is no the mindset of independent thought, but of a mind imprisoned by dogma.

Very much like the minds of the people that forced Galileo Galilei to abjure his theory, imprisoned Copernicus in his house just for writing down what he saw, burned both Giordani Bruno who first stated that the sun was just a star amongst billions, and Vesalius for studying human corpses to get real medical data... These people were the people of the Church and they too couldn't accept that reality was different from biblical dogma. It was them who fought against science, not the other way around. Science never had the intention of fighting christianity, it only had (and still has) the goal of providing humanity with real data/knowledge. And sadly fo bible-thumpers around the world this data renders biblical dogma invalid.

P.S. as for morals: like said before: go study the behavior of animals. You'll see that we're very much alike, even with all our technology and culture.

P.P.S. Remember that the bible is nothing more than the bundling of the myths and legends of a nomadic people that had become sedentary. Now if we assume these myths and legends, adn in particular genesis, to be true then we have to accept that every other myth explaining the origins of the Universe is true also. Therefore I now claim that the Earth is giant turtle carried by four elephants. this must be true because my gods have said so!

P.P.P.S. Since you like reading the Bible so much I order ou to read it again but change every word 'God/Jahweh/E.T.' with the word 'Fairy'.  There you'll learn that it was a fairy that created the world in six days... Sounds ridiculous? Well, prove that it wasn't a fairy then!
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Offline Crazy_Ivan80

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Quote
Originally posted by Top Gun
Did I mention at the start of this thread that I'm a Perl Monk?


You too? :D

When's the next service? And who do we sacrifice?
It came from outer space! What? Dunno, but it's going back on the next flight!
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Offline CP5670

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It is really pathetic when people try to use science to explain religion. :p :D

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Blitz, stop spamming with links to sites containing 5 cent philosophy, and answer to other peoples posts.


I think he is not doing that because he cannot think of answers to anything others respond with. :p I think someone said this earlier (maybe you): when these people cannot think of an answer to something, they just move to another topic. :p

Quote

2. Once again, though now I already know it's not going to help: "JUST BECAUSE THE THEORY OF EVOLUTION IS NOT FOOLPROOF, IT DOESN'T MEAN THAT CREATIONISM IS CORRECT, DO NOT WASTE TIME ARGUING AGAINST EVOLUTION, BUT INSTEAD FIND SOME PROOF FOR CREATIONISM"


I wonder if he will see it this time... :D

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Does this look like familiar? ;)


LOL, as I said before, there is an organization for almost every crackpot idea these days, especially with the advent of the internet. Check out the Flat Earth Society page; it is just like this thing. :D

I'm not going to argue a whole lot here unless Sesquipedelian comes back, as he is definitely worth arguing with, but these other guys appear to real morons. :p :D

 

Offline Kazan

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CP5670 i said deductive is more prone to error, not that inductive was without error

Quote
Origionally from Blitz_Lightning
 Second, young earth creationism is intellectually exciting. It has a ton of empirical evidence already in its favour (see the collected Proceedings of the International Conference on Creationism ). The pivotal fact is that good and interesting science can now be done in a young earth framework.


show me this evidence, and it better be indepentantly confirmable

Quote
Origionally from Blitz_Lightning
 The Bible says that morality is a result of choices that people make, and not the result of some conditioned evolutionary response.


nobody said it was an evolutionary "Response".  Primates are social creatures though, and the ones that have genes that keep them following the rules of the group are going to stay in the group and breed.  Social evolutionary pressure - from withing the species.  Sort of like many of us skinny people being disgusted by obese people.


btw Blitz - the rest of your arguement doesn't follow - and infact contradicts itself.. the terrorist with 'loving parents' supports hedonism.  The terrorist is somehow getting pleasure out of causing people pain.

Quote
Origionally from Blitz_Lightning
Like most people, I grew up believing in evolution. It was taught at school.


your word choice betrays you - evolution isn't something you 'believe' in.. it's something that is supported by testable evidence - evidence that can be tested by any scientist - creationism on the other had has zero testable evidence, just a whole crapload of logic arguements with massive fallacies


BTW Blitz on all your "10 reasonings..." SOMETHING CANNOT USE ITSELF TO SUPPORT ITSELF, and all other arguements are AD HOM! there is NO EVIDENCE THERE
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Offline Top Gun

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Quote
Originally posted by Crazy_Ivan80
who do we sacrifice?

ASP ans IIS users: for Blasphemy, we tie them between two Camels and then chant.

 

Offline Bobboau

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Quote
You people haven't yet posted anything contrary to the evidence for a young earth on pages 27, 28... not one whit...


Quote
when these people cannot think of an answer to something, they just move to another topic.


ding ding ding, we have a winner!!

you have posted SOOO much unfounded crap we only have time to go after that wich we are currently discussing, now do you want to stick with this or something else, and keep arguing it untill one of us is proven right

of course science has an advantage, we can conceed that we don't totaly understand something, other evedence will step in and hold our positions up,
you on the other hand rely wholy on the Bibble's absolute and total unquestionable reliability, if you concede that any point is inacurate, that disqualifys all you're evedence,
so when you know you've been backed into a corner you change the subject,
I think we should stay on the morality being evolved thing, but if you want to despute the age of the earth, we can do that
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Offline aldo_14

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Re: More about C14 dating...
Quote
Originally posted by Blitz_Lightning
Extract from this site

Of the methods that have been used to estimate the age of the earth, 90 percent point to an age far less than the billions of years asserted by evolutionists. A few of them follow.


Evidence for a rapid formation of geological strata, as in the biblical flood. Some of the evidences are: lack of erosion between rock layers supposedly separated in age by many millions of years; lack of disturbance of rock strata by biological activity (worms, roots, etc.); lack of soil layers; polystrate fossils (which traverse several rock layers vertically -- these could not have stood vertically for eons of time while they slowly got buried); thick layers of "rock" bent without fracturing, indicating that the rock was all soft when bent; and more. For more, see books by geologists Morris[26] and Austin.[27]


Even myths are based on truth.  Take Atlantis - it could be anumber of places, with some of the information distorted by the passage of time.

Saying we had a cataclysmic flood serves no purpose beyond indicating we have always lived in a world volatile to climatic change.

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Red blood cells and hemoglobin have been found in some (unfossilized!) dinosaur bone. But these could not last more than a few thousand years -- certainly not the 65 Ma since the last dinosaurs lived, according to evolutionists.[28]



Your making very broad assumptions about the state of these bones, and how the blood was preserved.

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The earth's magnetic field has been decaying so fast that it looks like it is less than 10,000 years old. Rapid reversals during the flood year and fluctuations shortly after would have caused the field energy to drop even faster.[29]
[/b]

Guess what.... the ozone layers benn declining, too.... oh wait, that was us!

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Radioactive decay releases helium into the atmosphere, but not much is escaping. The total amount in the atmosphere is 1/2000th of that expected if the universe is really billions of years old. This helium originally escaped from rocks. This happens quite fast, yet so much helium is still in some rocks that it has not had time to escape -- certainly not billions of years.[30]


Expected?  We don't have a bloody start level or composition- how can we predict the level of decay?  again, you're making a baseless assumption that this is a concept, immune to enviromental impact - or even us.

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A supernova is an explosion of a massive star -- the explosion is so bright that it briefly outshines the rest of the galaxy. The supernova remnants (SNRs) should keep expanding for hundreds of thousands of years, according to physical equations. Yet there are no very old, widely expanded (Stage 3) SNRs, and few moderately old (Stage 1) ones in our galaxy, the Milky Way, or in its satellite galaxies, the Magellanic Clouds. This is just what we would expect for "young" galaxies that have not existed long enough for wide expansion.[31]


Time lag between us and distant space.  Very obvious, really.  Plus you assume that all galaxies in the Universe would be the same age- the 'Big Bang' theory is impossible to prove.

Also, there is no true raw data to make anything beyond guesses on the true nature and aging process of stars - we only have the Sun, and all other stars are viewed as they were many,many years in the past.

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The moon is slowly receding for the earth at about 4 centimeters (1.5 inches) per year, and this rate would have been greater in the past. But even if the moon had started receding from being in contact with the earth, it would have taken only 1.37 billion years to reach its present distance from the earth. This gives a maximum age of the moon, not the actual age. This is far too young for evolutionists who claim the moon is 4.6 billion years old. It is also much younger than the radiometric "dates" assigned to moon rocks.[32]


You're assuming that there have not been changes to the Solar System since it existed...... scarring on the moon is evidence that there are massive impacts during the lifetime on this system.  here is also no documentaiton on any fluctuations on the changes in the suns and even the others pantes gravity field - which may been altered themselves.  not to mention the possiblity of the asteroid belt being a former moon of Jupiter, for example - not discountable.

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Salt is entering the sea much faster than it is escaping. The sea is not nearly salty enough for this to have been happening for billions of years. Even granting generous assumptions to evolutionists, the sea could not be more than 62 Ma years old -- far younger than the billions of years believed by the evolutionists. Again, this indicates a maximum age, not the actual age.[33]


What makes you think slat will have been entering the sea for all eternity?  also, what about the flooding affect of the end of the Ice Age, which would certainly alter the time frame.

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A survey of the 15,000 radiocarbon dates published through the year 1969 in the publication, Radiocarbon, revealed the following significant facts:27 a. Of the dates of 9671 specimens of trees, animals, and man, only 1146 or about 12 percent have radiocarbon ages greater than 12,530 years.

b. Only three of the 15,000 reported ages are listed as “infinite.”

c. Some samples of coal, oil, and natural gas, all supposedly many millions of years old, have radiocarbon ages of less than 50,000 years.

d. Deep ocean deposits supposed to contain remains of the most primitive life forms are dated within 40,000 years.


Wait a minute.......

firstly, carbon dating is not yet 100% accurate - this is well known - dating of the Turin Shroud has revealed 2 different dates, one proving and one disproving that it came from the target dat (25Ad?  not sure - no-ones actually accurately dated the bible, because it depends on the interpetation of what the Star of Bethlehem was).

Especially in 1969....science changes a lot in 33 years.

Secondly, are you trying to use one scientific theory to prove another one as fallible?  Because, surely that could mean carbon dating is wrong, and evolutionism sound?

Thirdly, evolution is not an anti-creationist view.  Evolutionary theory shows that life should not have started on Earth (through testing of random protein iteractions to form DNA) for billions of years after it did.

For a Christian, surely this is just a scenario of God setting the process in action and letting it 'go'.  If God is perfect, then surely that means the creatures they created are also -for the purposes of this analogy- faultless - i.e. able to choose their own destiny?  not to mention that belief in heaven does not rule death as failure - merely the ending of one plane of existance, and possiby ascension to heaven?

so far, all I've read is totally unsubtantied guesses, masquerading as definate proofs.  I've not read anything that would make me even consider the validty of evolutionary theory.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2002, 01:23:18 pm by 181 »

 

Offline wEvil

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damn this topic has gone on....

and on

and on.

Can some enlightened soul do a brief summary?  I dont have time to read through the whole thing right now.

 

Offline aldo_14

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Hey...I just visit for the free confectionary :D

 

Offline Unknown Target

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I agree, could someone please help us guys out?:D
Provide a summary-please-

 

Offline Fineus

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I'd attempt it but the fact is there's just to much information here to bother re-posting it. You'll have to read through the whole thing to get a good idea of what's been said - it's well worth it though if you want to get up-to-date on whatever everyone thinks and so on - a really interesting thread!

 

Offline Stunaep

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700 posts??? Whoa, I've got to reserve an entire day for that. A summary would be nice.

oh well, I could go without posting in this thread for 700 posts, I think I can stand another 700.
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Offline Martinus

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Hmmm, I see a few too many 'I've read something in a book/the net so it has to be true' people. I'm sure they've run through countless pages disproving their theories before finding one that proves it and then posting a link.

Everyone should remember the first rule of learning: Accept, then verify.

i.e. don't just believe something because someone looks or sounds reputable. Take it that they are telling the truth and then figure out how they came to that conclusion. Many people are just willing to accept but finding out the background will often show that the person you're quoting is biased in some way.

On a different note, I find it highly improbable that God would make a half assed effort at creating a universe that seemingly started billions upon billions of years ago with a big bang and then leave blundering evidence that totally disproves that theory. He might have a wicked sense of humor though.

[heavenly booming voice]This evolution joke will really mess with their heads...[/heavenly booming voice] :wink:

More likely that we simply don't have all the facts and hence there are 'plot holes' in the mighty story of the universe's creation.

 

Offline Crazy_Ivan80

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Re: Re: More about C14 dating...
Quote
Originally posted by aldo_14
[B
firstly, carbon dating is not yet 100% accurate - this is well known - dating of the Turin Shroud has revealed 2 different dates, one proving and one disproving that it came from the target dat (25Ad?  
[/B]


There's only one date for the Shroud of Turin... well, actually there are two but those two dates give a range of time between which it could have happened. This range goes from 1260 to 1390 AD: about 130 years.

There has been no other dating of the Shroud because the Church wouldn't allow it. When the Church finally agreed to let the Shroud be dated they only gave us one fiber! Seems little, but is was enough as only a few grammes of artefact are needed nowadays.

Just needed to mention that. :)

As for the rest: yeah! woohoo, you show them!
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Actually, if you read the recent book The DNA of God? , you will find out that later on, they discovered that bacteria and other microbes had coated the fibres of the shroud of turin. Over 40-60% of the fibre actually came from bacterial remains and other microbial remains. This is enough to skew the date from 0 AD to 1400 AD. So, in reality, they do not know what date the shroud of turin should be...
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Offline Crazy_Ivan80

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Quote
Originally posted by Blitz_Lightning
Actually, if you read the recent book The DNA of God? , you will find out that later on, they discovered that bacteria and other microbes had coated the fibres of the shroud of turin. Over 40-60% of the fibre actually came from bacterial remains and other microbial remains. This is enough to skew the date from 0 AD to 1400 AD. So, in reality, they do not know what date the shroud of turin should be...


Bollocks, the dating they did was genuine and correct. And if what you say indeed happened it shoudl have put the date to even more recent periods. And when the Shroud was dated it was done according to the double-blind standards to make sure no one cheated. And no one did.

They wer even able to trace the cloth and the product used to create the face:

the Cloth indeed comes from the Middle East (Palestine to be more precise): this could be proved by using palynology (using pollen).
The 'paint' does not come from the middle east but from somewher in France (probaby Burgundy or Champagne).
Written sources first mention the Shroud as being located in France, near Burgundy, during the period to which the cloth has been dated. Before that there are no mentions whatsoever. Total destruction of earlier sources cannot be excluded, but following the laws of Historical Criticism, combined with Carbon-dating, the conclusion is that the cloth was imported (somehow) to France and painted on demand by some aristocrat living there (probably the same one mentioned in the earliest sources), after that we can more or less follow the Shroud's path through history until it ends up in Turin. There is currently no proof whatsoever to sustain your claim that the Shroud is older than 1260-1390 AD.
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Take a look at this extract from this site National Book Review about the book
The DNA of God? :)

While investigating age-old Mayan artifacts, Leoncio Garza-Valdes discovered an amazing fact about ancient textiles that changed the science of archaeological dating forever. Indeed, the scientific community hailed his findings and used them to establish the new discipline of archaeomicrobiology. Unknown to many of these same scientists, Garza-Valdes's discoveries also held explosive consequences for the Shroud of Turin. Alas, what scientists did not know in 1988, when they dated the Shroud to the 14th century, has come back to haunt them. Even the secular Publishers Weekly can't hold back:

"In a book that is part detective story, part medical thriller, and part memoir, Garza-Valdes recalls the steps that led him to examine the Shroud scientifically and determine its possible date and purpose. Through a series of tests, the physician made two important discoveries that led him to believe that the Shroud could be dated to the first century and that it could have been Jesus' burial cloth. First, he found that the cloth itself was covered in an organic 'bioplastic coating, a type of clear encasing invisible to the naked eye but composed over time of millions of living microbial organisms.' Such a coating, which he had first witnessed in his study of ancient Mayan artifacts, distorts radiocarbon dating and skews the results of such tests to indicate an origin later than the actual origin. Second, through tests upon bacteria found in the blood stains found on the Shroud's fibers, Garza-Valdes discovered that they contained acetic acid, or vinegar. This evidence indicates that the person buried in the shroud would have been exposed to vinegar, much like Jesus at his crucifixion, at his death. This finding, coupled with 'infinitesimal splinters of hard wood found near the wound areas,' and the human male DNA found in the blood stains, led the author to ask whether this cloth was indeed the burial shroud of Jesus."
--The measure of a man's character is what he would do if he knew he never would be found out