Author Topic: OT-Religion...  (Read 143887 times)

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Offline Stryke 9

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'Course, Jesus would hardly be the only case in point- considering that God is essentially in charge of EVERYTHING, the Universe would be more or less a giant puppet show, with God directly orchestrating almost everything, and indirectly controlling the few things that he isn't immediately at the wheel of. Humanity, for instance. I'm not sure if this has been gone over already here, but can anyone explain why a benevolent God would give man the capacity and desire to commit certain acts, then label those acts evil and eternally torment those who do them? What kind of God would create a Hell for people who followed their own nature?

 

Offline CP5670

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I'm baaaaack! :D

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Philosphy is what is it. Thus cannot be taken for anything more than the some of its value, it bears no relation to the subject in question, which was related to the intelligence of a certain omnipotent being.


Read my post again. I said that philosophy is a synthesis of all learning; if we bring philosophy down to the precision of logical constructs, we have reached the peak of knowledge. Now, if this god has the same ambitions as we humans do (which you seem to have agreed on), then he can be duped just as easily as we can, because our motives are what are exploited when we are tricked into doing things. (a basic law of human psychology)

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We are finite beings on thus earth, we can only learn so much during a lifetime and our physical existance ends.


Even the religious side will disagree with that statement. Of course our individual lives are finite, but we do not operate independently like animals do; we operate as a civilization, and the ideas of one man are passed on to the next generation. Keep repeating this process through a transfinite number of generations, and you get the tranfinitely-timed constantly-evolving "machine" of all of human society.

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It seems to have been re-energised entirely by CP5670. :D By changing the whole point of the thread to perceptive reality and using religion as an example, too...


Hey, I can reenergize any of these types of threads with my radical ideas and quarrelsome nature when it comes to defending them. :D These things are all linked together, so to fully understand one we must understand part of another. This perceptive/absolute truth thing is so fundamental that it is the basis for all cognitive human thought. That's why it is called the first fundamental rule. :D

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The lord is not superhuman for he not of men. The Son of Man was however, the big bang happened, but where did it come from, what started it? You can never prove science, only disprove some parts of it. Thus anything that cannot be disproved could be believed without being labeled as stupid. Really whether what we believe in is true or not doesnt matter. The simple matter is, its something to believe in and we all follow our religion which usually benefits the world, either through us being kind and not breaking the law, to organizations such as Cafod.


You can never prove or disprove anything in the absolute. (both my first fundamental rule and Godel's theorem show this) Of course it is something to believe in, but not something that multiple independent thinking units (humans, if you will) can agree on, while science is indeed something that all of us can agree on, and it benefits our species far, far more than religion does. (religion played an important part in the forming of civilization, but with the evolving of society and human thought over millennia, it is now unneeded)

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Religon completely aside (and I'm not even sure how you got to this point, but what the hey), that's wrong. I'm not getting into literal, super-precise usages of words here, but essentially knowledge is the possesion of data. Wisdom is knowing how to use that data in a manner that is effecient and beneficial.

And yes, I know beneficial is a relative term to whom is benefiting, etc etc.


Wisdom can be defined as the application of abstract knowledge to practical life situations. Therefore, it is still just a form of knowledge at its very core. That is what I said earlier. :p

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Ok, I can see your point quite clearly. And it is a valid point, strictly speaking. But where we differ in opinion is that I believe that God's working of miracles cannot be understood by any means. I don't believe that it is at all possible to reach a point where His ways are understandable by us. I don't believe that such a point exists, and therefore even if we improve transfinitely, we cannot reach a point that doesn't exist.


Again, why don't you believe it? It is way too specialized an idea to take as an assumption. Although this makes for a stupid argument, I will go for it, because it is effective in convincing the masses. All of the great mathematicians, physicists and philosophers of history were on divided opinion on the topic of god - some believed in him and some did not - but they all agreed on two points regarding him. These were that god plays absolutely no role in the workings of the universe today and is completely distinct from it, and that it is possible for humans to accumulate all possible knowledge given enough time.

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What's the difference, if any, between "transfinite" and "infinite"?


Transfinite quantities are basically something between finite and infinite; they cannot be explicitly expressed by any finite procedure and are larger than any finite quantities, but mathematical operations can be performed on them just like with finite numbers. For computational purpose, they can just be assigned variables; traditionally the first few Hebrew letters are used, the smallest transfinite quanitity being designated as À-0. ;) These quantities occur everywhere in real life when we start to look at things from a philosophical perspective, and things can be easily computed using these methods. Infinite quantities are the highest possible transfinite quantities, so direct computations involving them are meaningless, but these have been mathematically shown not to come up in real life, so they remain a theoretical (but still extremely important) idea.

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And please, let's not get into an endless children's classic - the eternal "Why?" looop. :D Because you know already what the final answer will end up being: "Because".


Well, then that is not science. Bring it down to logical constructs, and I will then accept it. Until then, it makes about as much sense as the "Jesus baked a cake" thing Zylon stated earlier. :D

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no! color is spelled without a U!  


yeah! Look at dictionary.com or webster.com! :D :yes:

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'Course, Jesus would hardly be the only case in point- considering that God is essentially in charge of EVERYTHING, the Universe would be more or less a giant puppet show, with God directly orchestrating almost everything, and indirectly controlling the few things that he isn't immediately at the wheel of. Humanity, for instance. I'm not sure if this has been gone over already here, but can anyone explain why a benevolent God would give man the capacity and desire to commit certain acts, then label those acts evil and eternally torment those who do them? What kind of God would create a Hell for people who followed their own nature?


I thought the non-deterministic (random) universe has essentially been experimentally proved to be an accurate description of reality with the IRVs? Doesn't matter in any case, as even if the universe does operate in a predefined manner, then god does not have the capacity to do things any more than we do.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2002, 10:18:57 pm by 296 »

 

Offline ZylonBane

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Okay, which one of these IRVs are you assuming we know?
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Offline CP5670

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Actually, I stated earlier in this thread that IRV=independently random variable - a random occurrence whose cause was not affected by outside events. Current belief among physicists is that these almost definitely exist in the form of subatomic particles. ;)

 

Offline Stryke 9

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Originally posted by CP5670
then god does not have the capacity to do things any more than we do.


Then what's the point of worshipping him?;)

 

Offline CP5670

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Then what's the point of worshipping him?;)


Absolutely none. (remember that I am on the anti-religion team, and possibly the most extreme guy there too :D) Actually, it distills confidence into the average man that some higher being is watching over him as the man goes through the perils of his life, and so even if he knows that it does not make sense, he goes by it anyway because it makes him feel better. For the real seekers of truth, however, it is indeed useless. :p
« Last Edit: May 14, 2002, 06:54:11 pm by 296 »

 

Offline CP5670

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Come on everyone, post something! I need more arguments to refute! :D ;7 :D

 

Offline Stryke 9

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No thanks; I've got a driveler on the line at the moment, and I like to keep only one quibble going at a time.

That, and I more or less agree with you.

 

Offline CP5670

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Actually I meant someone on the pro-religion party. ;)

 

Offline Stryke 9

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I could pretend, since I'm not really in ANY party...:D

 

Offline Kamikaze

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Originally posted by CP5670
Actually I meant someone on the pro-religion party. ;)


LOL, I could call up a friend... :D
Science alone of all the subjects contains within itself the lesson of the danger of belief in the infallibility of the greatest teachers in the preceding generation . . .Learn from science that you must doubt the experts. As a matter of fact, I can also define science another way: Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts. - Richard Feynman

 

Offline CP5670

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As I said before, I am going to have to argue about this my entire life once I get that book published, so it is well to have some practice. :D :D

 

Offline Styxx

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Originally posted by Stryke 9
I could pretend, since I'm not really in ANY party...:D


:lol: :lol:
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Offline Sesquipedalian

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Several things:

1a)Philosophically speaking, a siginificant part of your arguments are undermined by a fundamental error, illustrated here, for example:  
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Nothing can be proved to be true "beyond a doubt," by the first fundamental rule. For the purposes of absolute reality however, it has indeed been observed even today for it to become a viable explanation.
You often refer to the difference between absolute and preceived truth (more technical philosophical terms are the noumenal and phenomenal, a la Kant), and base arguments upon it (essentially running along the lines that since God can never be known in the absolute sense, it is silly to believe in him).  However, implicit in your arguments, and even somewhat explicit at times, is the assumption that you are able to somehow access the noumenal.  You, like all of us, are confined to your perception, and do not have access to noumenal.  What the noumenal may be is something that cannot be known by any means whatsoever, for our only access is in, through and to the phenomenal.  "Scientific truth" can ultimately make no claim to being the true story of things, but merely the generally agreed upon account of our phenomenal experience.

1b)
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Well, that is true, but the belief should be cut down to the most simple and fundamental ideas. When the ideas reach a level of simplicity that cannot be further simplified, that becomes the foundation of rational thought. Now the only way the human brain is able to theorize anything is by using logical constructs, which is why these should be regarded as the assumptions. (this is part of the first fundamental assumption) This kind of unnerving faith in religion remains not only irrational, but stupid to the highest order.
Non sequitur.

2) Transfinity: From an atheistic point of view, one has little choice but to conclude that humanity is finite.  The species will die, the suns will go out, the rocks will grow cold, the universe will go to its heat death, and in the end we as a whole will be shown to be so very, very finite.  (Alternatively, the looped universe theories may be true, but then we still all die).

3) You have not answered my objection re: pre-rational decisions.  The choice to believe this or that is primary, as every last one of us here demonstrates, whether realising it or not.  Every one of the arguments that you, for example, have put forward assume the non-existence of God from the outset.

4) Credibility:  So in other words, you will never concede any amount of evidence as being sufficient to make the account of a miracle credible.  This seems remarkably dogmatic.

I would continue, but, alas, I must sleep and rise to go to work tomorrow.

P.S.
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Actually, that simply shows the gullibility of the average human mind and the failure to take more variables into account. (changing of history, to name one; why does this not happen so often today?) In fact, if I was a powerful public speaker like Hitler, I bet I could easily convince all of you into believing that I was the god and absolute ruler of the world.
 The first part needs more explication, as your meaning is unclear.  As for the second: umm, no.  Methinks thy ego needeth some deflating! ;)
« Last Edit: May 14, 2002, 11:29:57 pm by 448 »
Sesqu... Sesqui... what?
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Offline CP5670

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Several things: :D :D

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You often refer to the difference between absolute and preceived truth (more technical philosophical terms are the noumenal and phenomenal, a la Kant), and base arguments upon it (essentially running along the lines that since God can never be known in the absolute sense, it is silly to believe in him). However, implicit in your arguments, and even somewhat explicit at times, is the assumption that you are able to somehow access the noumenal. You, like all of us, are confined to your perception, and do not have access to noumenal. What the noumenal may be is something that cannot be known by any means whatsoever, for our only access is in, through and to the phenomenal. "Scientific truth" can ultimately make no claim to being the true story of things, but merely the generally agreed upon account of our phenomenal experience.


Again, look at my first fundamental rule. I'm not saying that science is the ultimate - nothing is the "ultimate" as far as that goes - but what I am saying is that it is miles ahead of this popular religion. Science is something that everyone can experimentally test, while religion has already been said here to be "something beyond man" and such, the result being that even the religious people in the world cannot agree on the exact principles of religion, leading to the creation of several different religions that all endlessly bicker with each other, sometimes violently.

Of course, at the most basic level, absolutely nothing can be assumed, as I said earlier many times. Now if we go by this, it is impossible to deduce anything, or even to attempt to think, as long as more than one thinking unit is involved. This is where the perceptive reality paradox comes in. I put in this argument before: I can say that I am the god and ruler of the world, because I perceive it to be so, and so it is correct. :p In that manner, anything can be perceived, and who would be to say whether or not it is correct? Here's another example: gravity is a repellent force, not an attractive force, because I perceive it as such. I am just as correct as those who claim the opposite. If everyone uses this principle, each person will come out with a different view, and the society as a whole will not get anywhere.

To avoid these situations temporarily (they can be dealt with once all the absolute knowledge has been analyzed), the first fundamental assumption of logic must come into play, and this is precisely the premise behind the assumption. The only basis on which multiple thinking units can work together to solve a common problem is the logic rules, and science is merely a distant extension of those. Therefore, going by these logic rules, anything that cannot be observed objectively does not exist in the absolute realm. The amount of knowledge in each realm is obviously transfinite, but the absolute truth area is not only far smaller, but far smaller by a transfinite amount, because in the perceptive realm, everything exists. A god and the lack of a god both exist here, which sounds strange when going by logic (this is different from the quantum world: there, things are indeterminate, but here, anything can be both true and false; I will write a more precise and detailed treatment of this subject in that book) Now, where is it easier to start off the pursuit of knowledge with?

Therefore, this essentially boils down to picking the simplest assumptions. My assumptions are the postulates of logic. Yours are the existence of not only a god, but a human-like god who interferes in human affairs. Which appear to be more fundamental and can be used to construct the other? :rolleyes:

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2) Transfinity: From an atheistic point of view, one has little choice but to conclude that humanity is finite. The species will die, the suns will go out, the rocks will grow cold, the universe will go to its heat death, and in the end we as a whole will be shown to be so very, very finite. (Alternatively, the looped universe theories may be true, but then we still all die).


You are discounting the most important variable of them all: technological advance. This is the one big variable that the great philosophers of the past failed to include in their calculations. The currently accepted big bang theory actually shows that the very laws of science can be altered under certain conditions, including the laws of time. Besides, if we continue to progress at even a geometric rate (current rate is at least exponential, if not greater), by the time the universe ends, regardless of the cosmological curvature, we will have long since surpassed the powers of this "god." (which, by the way, are obviously finite; seeing the universe today, either he can only do certain things, or he can do anything but lacks the will, which is equivalent)

Also, if the universe has a transfinite amount of mass, for which there is reasonable evidence (although not enough to be commonly accepted as an absolute truth), then your whole argument would be invalidated anyway. Also, I am thinking that it might be possible to extend the general relativity equation to incorporate three time dimensions instead of one so that it will explain the strange effects seen at the subatomic level; if this can indeed be done in even two dimensions, then time could be turned into transfinity in a limited region of space, resulting in the time-point universe theory and a perpetual humanity. (although I will not vouch for this part just yet, since I am not sure of it myself)

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3) You have not answered my objection re: pre-rational decisions. The choice to believe this or that is primary, as every last one of us here demonstrates, whether realising it or not. Every one of the arguments that you, for example, have put forward assume the non-existence of God from the outset.


See first part of the post.

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4) Credibility: So in other words, you will never concede any amount of evidence as being sufficient to make the account of a miracle credible. This seems remarkably dogmatic.


Show me the exact procedures in terms of logic and math constructs that god carries out to perform these so-called miracles, and I will readily accept it. I said this earlier, but I will repeat it: nobody who supposedly experiences these miracles ever tries to formulate mathematical equations, or even thinks about this, because their structure will then fall apart. This "god made a miracle happen" thing by itself is crazy. It is like saying "a computer works because of the laws of science;" many, many more details are needed.

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The first part needs more explication, as your meaning is unclear. As for the second: umm, no. Methinks thy ego needeth some deflating! ;)


What I meant there was that humans will believe anything they are told with ease if it sounds simple to them. As for the second bit, look at the procedures through which sociology and politics operate, and you will then see how ignorant that statement was. If you're talking about "ego," let me put it this way: any of you could drill your ideas into everyone else here if you had the skill of powerful rabble-rousing oratory (which I unfortunately do not have, I'm the loner :D), but your ideas would need to be simple enough for the common man to accept. (which they definitely are) For the fourth time, humans will adhere to simplistic ideas much more than to complicated ones, even if they are contradictory.

One thing I wanted to mention: why does everyone who believes in the existence of god also like this god? If a god could be mathematically proven to exist, I would obviously accept it, but I would hate him beyond all words. :p

Time for me to go to sleep, but I'll be back in five hours! :D

Oh, one last thing; I am right and everyone else is wrong because I say so! |-|4w |-|4w |-|4w. ;7 :D j/k
« Last Edit: May 15, 2002, 03:39:21 am by 296 »

 

Offline HotSnoJ

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Originally posted by Top Gun





I'm not even going to dignify that waste of server space with an answer. The stupidity speaks for itselsf.


:confused: What stupidity?! Everything in that article is based on fact, since that's what you non-christians seem to be interested in. I used bible references to tell you were I got the stories from so YOU could look them up and see that I wasn't lying.

Today I have a challenge for you go to your local Christian Church and have this argument with a pastor. And if he knows what he's talking about you will lose you argument that God doesn't exist.
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Offline Shrike

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Originally posted by hotsnoj
You said "medium", I said void. There is a difference! A medium is when something is in something. The earth is not in something (space, but that isn't like air or water). It is in a void. We are in a medium, the air.
Technically speaking, the Earth is in a medium.... vaccum is not a true void.  Look close enough and it is not empty, it is a 'froth' of ephemeral, subatomic particles.  I read a theory somewhere that a truly empty region of space would result in a Big Bang.
WE ARE HARD LIGHT PRODUCTIONS. YOU WILL LOWER YOUR FIREWALLS AND SURRENDER YOUR KEYBOARDS. WE WILL ADD YOUR INTELLECTUAL AND VERNACULAR DISTINCTIVENESS TO OUR OWN. YOUR FORUMS WILL ADAPT TO SERVICE US. RESISTANCE IS FUTILE.

 

Offline HotSnoJ

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Originally posted by Shrike
Technically speaking, the Earth is in a medium.... vaccum is not a true void.  Look close enough and it is not empty, it is a 'froth' of ephemeral, subatomic particles.  I read a theory somewhere that a truly empty region of space would result in a Big Bang.


:confused: Are you telling me that nothing can explode?

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So just to make sure I'm understanding here...

The entire point of religious sacrifice is to demonstrate your fear of a vengeful god by taking something you value, and destroying it (in His name).

So Jesus was an extra-special human sacrifice to God. Two problems here--
1. Jesus was executed, not sacrificed.
2. The whole thing was planned by God anyway.

Since the "sacrifice" was to God, of God, and orchestrated by God, to accomplish an end which He could have achieved by just deciding that Original Sin was forgiven, the entire thing seems like nothing more than an exercise in divine masturbation.


AHHHHH
1. You are responsible for your sins.
2. You need someone or something to die in your place to attone for those sins.
3. No-one is sinless (except Jesus). So no-one can die to take away your sins (except Jesus).

It was more for his love for us that he did it. We needed to be shown love so we could love (botherly love not the spouse kinda love) others. That's part of the Christian doctorin.

Make no mistake about it. Jesus is a PART God. Jesus + Holy Spirit + The Father = GOD That's the Trinity.
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Offline Shrike

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Originally posted by hotsnoj
:confused: Are you telling me that nothing can explode?
I'm just repeating a theory I heard about how the Big Bang was caused.

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AHHHHH
1. You are responsible for your sins.
2. You need someone or something to die in your place to attone for those sins.
3. No-one is sinless (except Jesus). So no-one can die to take away your sins (except Jesus).

It was more for his love for us that he did it. We needed to be shown love so we could love (botherly love not the spouse kinda love) others. That's part of the Christian doctorin.

Make no mistake about it. Jesus is a PART God. Jesus + Holy Spirit + The Father = GOD That's the Trinity. [/B]
I know I'm responsible for my sins.  I accept that.

I also don't believe in the christian god, so the fact that I sin has little relevance to me.

Now, if you don't mind, I have some sinning to get done.
WE ARE HARD LIGHT PRODUCTIONS. YOU WILL LOWER YOUR FIREWALLS AND SURRENDER YOUR KEYBOARDS. WE WILL ADD YOUR INTELLECTUAL AND VERNACULAR DISTINCTIVENESS TO OUR OWN. YOUR FORUMS WILL ADAPT TO SERVICE US. RESISTANCE IS FUTILE.

 

Offline HotSnoJ

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Originally posted by Shrike
I'm just repeating a theory I heard about how the Big Bang was caused.


:confused: But does that make sense?! If it does....I hope you can find a.... one of those guy's that has you lay on a couch and you tell him your life. But a pastor at a Christian Church would be better.
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I know I'm responsible for my sins.  I accept that.

I also don't believe in the christian god, so the fact that I sin has little relevance to me.

Now, if you don't mind, I have some sinning to get done.

Well then you going to hell! And I am sad about that. :( Very sad. :( :( :(
I have big plans, now if only I could see them through.

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