[Droid803]

Well, even if they did need an Oculus for beam jamming I'm pretty sure they'd keep one around their Solaris destroyers at all times.
Wouldn't just leave those things unattended.

[QuakeIV]

Didn't the guys in the Forces Deployed to the Sol Theatre determine that there is only one oculus left now?

[MatthTheGeek]

I don't think the number of Oculus that escaped the Artemis blitz was ever revealed. The UEF definitely doesn't have more than a handful of them, but I am pretty sure they have more than one.

[QuakeIV]

Hm yeah, re-read the thread and they didn't find any exact numbers.

[Luis Dias]

More importantly, what is the precise intel that the GTVA holds regarding the beam jamming?

The amount of canon over this is overwhelming to me (which is an euphemistic way of saying that I know **** about this), but if the GTVA is still scratching their heads on how the feat was done, let alone how many devices the UEF has capable of it, they must suppose a very high degree of risk in any attack operation on their behalf.

They know that the UEF does not have lots of these devices. Delenda Est is both proof they know it and confirmation to them that such devices are not (at least) easily deployable.

However, given the relentless passing of time, two things can be deduced:

1) GTVA must assume the UEF will try to build these devices as their best defense against Serk and their destroyers. Even without good production lines, the GTVA can assume that the UEF places these devices as top priority for their production lines;

2) UEF must assume the GTVA has gathered sufficient data and is working on a counter measure for the device.

What they do not know is how the other party's development in their own research / build up is working out if sufficient time goes by. However, if too much time goes by, both parties know that the UEF has sufficient devices to pose a threat, and that GTVA's research might as well have found a counter measure rendering such devices useless.

Many variants of this idea are possible. Perhaps it is true that no counter measure can be devised. However in that case, the UEF can only *guess* that this is the case. It cannot assume it. Perhaps it is true that a counter measure can be devised but counter-counter measures can be as well. In this latter case, it may be possible that the task of the GTVA is easier than the UEF, or it may be possible the exact opposite (far too much work for the GTVA to adapt to new measures from the UEF devices).

That situation reminds me the tactical situations in Star Trek TNG against the Borg, where the enterprise rotated their weapons "frequency" and the Borg tried to adapt to it in real time. These kind of tactics were either effective or innefective depending on the plot demands and not on their own merits, obviously.


So how WiH part 2 deals with this "tactical" plot point is what I am somewhat curious.

[Drogoth]

And there is beam jamming...dun, dun, dun...
"Let's kill us a Solaris"
"Uh, Admiral, our beams aren't working..."
"Well then, we'll repeat this crazy strike jump thing several times a day...I'm pretty sure the UEF can't handle this..."

Sure...that's how it goes...sure...

The UEF has oculus' on full readiness standby 24/7 across their entire fleet zone?

I call bull****

The GTVA has full intelligence on the position and readiness of the UEF's Solaris strength 24/7 across their entire fleet zone?

I call bull****.

My point was neither that the GTVA would always have kick ass intel, or that this is obviously the GTVA's solution. My point was that an all out shock jump attack on a solaris isn't stopped by the presence of UEF EW Platforms. Its stopped for a variety of reasons which have been exhaustively covered.

Don't think that just because I'm a Tev Fanboy means I think that attack is so obviously the only way to go with no downside. I was simply responding to the logical fallacy that says that the UEF have their EW platforms on full readiness all the time. I don't doubt that they have an Oculus near each Solaris, or that a Solaris could jam beams itself but that raises a pair of points:

A) If a solaris was doing that itself, I expect its combat power would be severely degraded as much of its EW capacity is being exhausted on jamming beams. Degrades the power of the shock jump of course, but doesn't prevent massive bomber waves from exploiting the Solaris' temporary handicap and jamming a ton of helios' down it's engine tube.

B) No military organization can be at constant readiness 24/7. Contrary to the belief of civilians. Provided the Tevs could somehow get their hands on detailed intel, this operation would be incredibly risky.. but not impossible. It would take the solaris and oculus probably about 2 minutes to spin up to GQ. Maybe shorter for the oculus. Smaller ship, fewer people, and fewer functions to have ready.  Still a time frame though. I expect the UEF keeps a portion of their defensive formations on GQ on some kind of rotation, but that would still leave about one half to two thirds (depending on the stringency of this rotation) of the UEF fleet in rest mode, which a shock jump could devastate. Odds are they could escape whatever UEF ships were ready before the ones they hit could spin up to full readiness or recover from the massive damage they've just been handed.

The same holds true for the UEF standing CSP. Likely also on rotation, and most of their reinforcements and operational support will have gone up in smoke if their home base (the solaris in question) has been reduced to dust.

The downside to this strategy is of course, one of the other two UEF Admirals is going to get wind of the attack before the Tevs can jump out. If they're fast they'll hit Artemis or Neptune which are now uncovered and vulnerable. Mutual destruction of major bases, and the retreating Tevs are now caught between hammer and anvil. Let's assume they attack the Eris. Even if they succeed, the rest of the Martian fleet is now definitely up to GQ, and a load of Durga's are closing in for the kill. They sprint jump out back to Artemis. Except Calder and Byrne (even he cant be thick headed enough to ignore this kind of strategic opportunity) are also there, ravaging tev defences and hitting the damaged and now demoralized return of the Martian attack. their drives are now definitely cold, they are facing two fully combat ready solaris' who are most definitely not the sitting duck that the Eris was. At best the majority of the Tev fleet retreats to either Neptune or the portal. The tevs lose Artemis and likely more then a few ships.

I know there are all kinds of problems with the scenario I have just outlined but the simple essence is that neither side can commit to an all-out-balls-deep attack for reasons that have been discussed into the ground.

[General Battuta]

excellent posting on this page

[LordPomposity]

B) No military organization can be at constant readiness 24/7. Contrary to the belief of civilians. Provided the Tevs could somehow get their hands on detailed intel, this operation would be incredibly risky.. but not impossible. It would take the solaris and oculus probably about 2 minutes to spin up to GQ. Maybe shorter for the oculus. Smaller ship, fewer people, and fewer functions to have ready.  Still a time frame though. I expect the UEF keeps a portion of their defensive formations on GQ on some kind of rotation, but that would still leave about one half to two thirds (depending on the stringency of this rotation) of the UEF fleet in rest mode, which a shock jump could devastate. Odds are they could escape whatever UEF ships were ready before the ones they hit could spin up to full readiness or recover from the massive damage they've just been handed.

That's true of modern militaries, but we don't know that it's necessarily true of the UEF and GTVA; their warships could very well carry enough excess crew and have enough automation and redundant systems that all combat stations are manned at all times. Obviously, there are significant drawbacks to investing those levels of resources in redundancy. However, spending two minutes to get ready for combat is simply not a tenable proposition when warship-on-warship engagements usually begin completely without warning and are often over within a matter of seconds. We can assume that any military will have taken measures to have their ships able to enter the fight on the timescale that battles take place on.

[An4ximandros]

Somehow I doubt about the automation, they have thousands just on a Karuna, and around 10k on a Solaris I expect, when reaching ships those sizes, you'd expect more than half the ship to be automated, (robotic sections controlled by AIs that are controlled by a "control"staff for example), yet given the size of your fighter and it's cabin compared to the ships, they feel small since most of a Karu's silhouette is faked by it's armor.

[crizza]

But a modern military has two...shifts, so a carrier is combat ready 24h a day, so why not an Occolus?

[Aesaar]

I think Battuta has adopted the "Hot-vs-Cold" method of reinforcing our speculation.

[LordPomposity]

But a modern military has two...shifts, so a carrier is combat ready 24h a day, so why not an Occolus?

A modern carrier has two watches so that it can continuously conduct day-to-day operations. During actual combat, everyone on both watches would have something to do.

[Drogoth]

But a modern military has two...shifts, so a carrier is combat ready 24h a day, so why not an Occolus?

A modern carrier has two watches so that it can continuously conduct day-to-day operations. During actual combat, everyone on both watches would have something to do.

Exactly.

[Luis Dias]

Well, modern carriers are not under the threat of being annihilated within 2 minutes if they are not prepared to jump to subspace. You would think that these conditions ask for a change of ship management so as to avoid the obliteration of these ships.

Yes, the redundancy required is extremely costly, but a lot cheaper than actually losing your ships.

Having said all this, there are two important caveats.

1) It is quite probable the UEF was not ready to implement new protocols in personnel (and automation) management, given that the "shock" tactics of the GTVA were (somewhat) of a novelty to the UEF. Their ships were not ready before the war, and they might have not have yet adapted completely;

2) It is also possible that a cost analysis was made and a decision taken to the effect that this management is just too costly and would involve too many corrections both in hardware and in management. Given the reasons outlined by Drogoth, it is possible the UEF has concluded that the risk of further big shock tactics by the GTVA is minimized and thus the need for a major adaptation on their part to be ready "on the second" is just not on their priorities.

[headdie]

I thought RL warships generally operate 3 shifts/day with a few exceptions everyone onboard expected to take on damage control type duties when not "on duty" so to speak

[Klaustrophobia]

I thought RL warships generally operate 3 shifts/day with a few exceptions everyone onboard expected to take on damage control type duties when not "on duty" so to speak

shift turnovers vary with the different watches, the condition of the ship, and even with who writes the watch bill that day.  The most intense and critical, "stare at this panel and do nothing else" type of watches get 4-6 hour shifts, while people like the duty officer for a section will have a 24h watch in a "call me if something ****s up" role.  those not "on watch" have their normal jobs to do.  maintenance work, routine duties, training, management/admin type stuff for the officers, etc.  to some degree, everyone on the ship is damage control, but on the bigger ones, there are specific damage control teams that are coordinated and dispatched rather than have everyone run amok doing the best they can. 


aside from all of that, i was under the impression that while a carrier is deployed, the day-to-day operations ARE being "combat ready."  they sortie constantly, not just when they have something to bomb.  Various things i've read/watched gave me the impression that there's nearly always a CAP in the air, or at the very least manned fighters ready to launch sitting on the deck.  if i ever get the chance to talk to a pilot/topside ops type person i'll have to ask about this.

[QuakeIV]

And then he gets executed for attempting to disseminate classified military doctrine.

[Scotty]

The vague and general readiness of a carrier's CAP isn't classified.  "We always have guys in the air or ready to launch" isn't classified.

[QuakeIV]

Just kidding man 

[CT27]

Since the Earth Blitz was arguably a military success for the GTVA, should they try for a Martian Blitz?