Author Topic: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)  (Read 378383 times)

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Offline Falcon

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Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
It's going to feel like Duke Nukem Forever again if this game does get released but doesn't live up to expectations. Only this time it'll be 90 mill wasted instead of 14 years.

 

Offline Dragon

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Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
This is why a lot of people have lost confidence in the project as CIG got more and more money.  I was a hell of a lot more excited about SC when they hadn't even broken 10 million, because the game they had planned was actually achievable and could have been released by now.
I'm afraid that I'm going to agree with you here as well. At this point, CIG seems like it has waaay too much money. They're rapidly approaching a 100M$ dollar budget. While it's not a government project (if it was, it'd be doomed for certain at this point), this is a classic example of "too much of a good thing". Coppola had the a similar situation during filming of Apocalypse Now. That took an absurd amount of time, but it panned out. His next move (also with way too much budget, and now also too much confidence in himself), however, did not. CR's crowdfunding success does put him in Coppola's situation when making that second movie. So, we might as well end up with both 100 million wasted and 14 years or so. At least it isn't being developed behind closed doors, so if/when something does get done, it will be playable anyway. Indeed, the only reason I'm still hopeful for the project is that it has a community that can give feedback both about development process and the game itself.

One thing we can be sure of. Even if it does get done eventually, it won't be anytime soon. So I remain hopeful, but I'm not exactly holding my breath.

 

Offline Scotty

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Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
I dont get your point, could you rephrase? Cheap ships should be generally worse than pricier ships, that is what I call balanced.

Its not horse****. Pay to win is bad because and only because it offers unearned advantages for some players. But there is no obligation to keep gameplay totaly fair during development. Who wins or loses is secondary. The only obligation during development is to test the game and to earn more money for development. If the game is still pay to win after it releases, then I will be angry, but not before.

Bolded for emphasis.

Please enjoy your day off.  When you come back, let's have these discussions in good faith, okay?

 

Offline AtomicClucker

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Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Well, I wanted a game that was like an updated or remake of Privateer.

But after 3 years, the problem is that Roberts has no idea to take it in a direction - because really, there needs to be an end to a means in a project. The original goal was quite simple - and something that Elite Dangerous pulled off quite well. They kept focus on what they deemed the right priorities. Sounds like Robert's is running from once fancy to the next.
Blame Blue Planet for my Freespace2 addiction.

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Honestly, I fail to see bad faith in his reasoning. At worst, confusion. He seems to be merely suggesting that "cheap ships" should play worse than "expensive ships" in a context of beta testing play, while that, in the final state of the game, it should be balanced.

As I said, at worst, confusion (for obvious reasons), or wishful thinking cognitive dissonance.

Regardless, this thread is already going in circles, perhaps let's wait for more news to discuss? I'm sure we will know some in the next few days (according to trends!)

 

Offline Falcon

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Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
CitizenCon should provide ample news in a week, hopefully there will be something worth showing. I do have a question though, if this game does not hit the mark and fails do you think any publisher would pick the game up and try and piece it together in one form or another? Or would it not be worth it?

 
Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Crowdfunding's something of a legal frontier at this stage and projects are starting to be targeted with legal action for failing to deliver. If Star Citizen actually does fail, what publisher's going to risk taking on a $90 million potential liability?
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.

 
Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen

So what Derek Smart game did you play?

I didn't play any, I was just here when he was shopping around for Freespace rights.

Oh curious how you formed an opinion of his development efforts despite having not played any of his games, yet you reserve judgement for Star Citizen. In either case apparently your experience in arena and walking around your hangar was not compelling enough to ensure your continued participation:

To be fair, he has spent a huge chunk of his life trying to accomplish exactly what Star Citizen is going for, and probably has a better idea than nearly anyone about how incredibly hard it is to pull off.

He knows how hard the first 3 or 4 steps are, at least.

- - - - - -

All in all one must draw some comparisons between this campaign and a ponzi scheme.
Originally people were asked to donate 40 dollars or so. Now later on there are tons of high priced "packages" for people to buy into it, much like a ponzi scheme asks for investments and then later on asks for even greater investments with higher stakes (a better game).

One person I spoke with on the escapist alleges that Star Citizen's development scope and goals are not being based upon how much money they have, but rather upon how much money they're getting which to my mindset seems like a terrible way to conduct business.  Because #1 you're spending money based on a revenue source which is not at all guaranteed, and #2 undoubtedly the campaign to bring in more money will divert resources.  They'll be making assets to bring in money which is then used to both fund the development of the game and also create assets to bring in more money, like some sort of circular money pit.  Those same assets will undoubtedly be in the game but if they're potentially not designed for that purpose I wonder how well they'd integrate.   This same person alleged they had some healthy reserve of money to finish the game should crowd-funding ground to a halt but even so, that doesn't seem like a great management strategy.

That being said this is again coming from some reader of escapist, and as much as I've been in conflict with people here I think the readership of the escapist is about half as literate and a third as mature as any forum goer here.  One person for example tried to defeat the idea that CIG is racist because a video that came out yesterday had a black guy in it (very fortuitous timing), even though the actually allegation from the source was not that CIG did not hire black people, but rather that Sandi refused hiring a specific woman because she was black.  Also amusingly if you listen to the podcast, they also said that Sandi refused hiring a second woman because she was probably hairy in her nether regions if you can believe it.  But this is information from a disgruntled ex or current employee and is difficult to prove regardless, nor does it directly impact the production beyond the happiness of those working there.

« Last Edit: October 03, 2015, 11:31:48 pm by Akalabeth Angel »

 

Offline Aesaar

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Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
CitizenCon should provide ample news in a week, hopefully there will be something worth showing. I do have a question though, if this game does not hit the mark and fails do you think any publisher would pick the game up and try and piece it together in one form or another? Or would it not be worth it?
The way I see it, there are two things that would actively discourage a publisher from funding this the rest of the way: 1) most of the people who can reliably be expected to buy the game have already done so, and if CIG needs a publisher's help, most of the money from that is gone.  2) that isn't $90M of sales, it's $90M of debt.  Debt which the publisher would need to take on to finalise the game.  And if it can't be done, they'd probably need to pay a lot of that money back.

To me, it just doesn't look like there's enough profit to be made for a publisher to want to save this game.

EDIT: I thought this was a good enough post to warrant being posted here:

Quote from: RuckusRouser, Something Awful SC thread
Someone brought up a point a few pages back that was mostly glossed over but very important, especially for all the people wondering about SC's money.

In the BattleTech kickstarter they are asking for $1M worth of funding just to add a single-player campaign to an already internally paid for PC-port of a boardgame. The game ruleset will more than likely be just a modern version of a game that is literally decades old, so most design and balance is done, or at least enough to provide a foundation. Yet, they still know it takes $1M and ~1.5 years (projected release of May 2017) to simply add a campaign. Why? Because their studio has made games in the past few years and knows how expensive modern game development is. They won't even have voice acting until $1.35M and multiplayer until $2.5M.

Compare and contrast this to Chris Roberts, whose most recent game, Freelancer, was released 9 years prior to when he launched his kickstarter. Also keep in mind that he had to be forced out of his position as studio lead in 2000 because the project was overbudget and overdue, so the replacement leads completed the game. Roberts' most recent management experience of a game was 12 years prior to the SC kickstarter. [and it was a complete failure -Aesaar]

Then, he asked for $500K to create a game that had:
-Single Player Campaign – Offline or Online (Drop in / Drop out co-op play)
-Persistent Universe
-Mod-able multiplayer
-10X the detail of current AAA games
-Fully dynamic economy driven by player actions


Roberts is a person who not only has a record of being unable to manage development funds, but also proves that he has no idea what modern game development entails. Of all the things the Escapist article touched upon, the most important point with relevance to the sustainability of the project is the $8M figure. (Note: I am not saying that the points about a toxic work environment and business ethics are unimportant, just that they have less bearing on the project's life than the finances)

In his crazy rant he brings up in-depth counterpoints to the article, although he only gets to that after the ad-hominem attacks. When it comes to debunk the talk about the project's finances his main thrust is:

"We always keep a healthy cash reserve and operate our business prudently based on the incoming revenue."


That is it, he then drops the subject with no elaboration. This was his chance to go into detail with regards to their financial situation and assuage the fears of any doubters or disbelievers about what matters the most. I cannot understand how anyone can have any faith in this "savior of PC gaming" with his past record of mismanagement in light of the rumors of current mismanagement.



EDIT 2: https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/14979-Chairmans-Response-To-The-Escapist

TL;DR: The Escapist has to issue an apology and retract their article, or CIG will sue them.

SPACE COURT!  Just when I thought this whole thing had reached peak comedy, there's more.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2015, 02:35:13 am by Aesaar »

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
And whose money will be used to sue the Escapist? Hmmm.

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
To be fair to them, if the claims of racism are untrue, the only possible response for them is to sue cause that is a textbook case of defamation. On the other hand, if The Escapist can prove their claim, they're going to really regret trying to sue.
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Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
Is that what passes for a legal document these days?  Including snide remarks and jabs? ie roughly 'we're going to give you 24 hours, the same amount of time you generously gave us'. Like really? It's like reading a legal document written by someone in grade school.  Why are they so eager to air their dirty laundry, why not simply say we're demanding they retract the article or we'll take them to court?

 

Offline Aesaar

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Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
To be fair to them, if the claims of racism are untrue, the only possible response for them is to sue cause that is a textbook case of defamation. On the other hand, if The Escapist can prove their claims, they're going to really regret trying to sue.
The Escapist doesn't need to prove their claim.  I'm not a lawyer, so take this with a grain of salt, but as I understand it (with the help of a couple of lawyers in the Something Awful thread), under American law, the burden of proof is on CIG.  They'd need to prove that The Escapist knew the claims weren't true and printed them anyway.  Even if they aren't true, so long as The Escapist had reasonable cause to believe they were true, printing them isn't illegal.

Things are different under English law, but both The Escapist and CIG are American companies, and both the states of New York (where The Esacpist is based) and California (where CIG is based) have laws that prevent libel tourism.

I'm having trouble understanding CIG's reasoning here.  This lawsuit would be very difficult to win.  What's more, if they lose, public perception would view that as an admission that what The Escapist wrote was true.  It could utterly ruin them. 

Same deal if they're bluffing.  It'll look like they're not confident enough about their side of the story to actually follow through on litigation.  It'll also make them look like Derek Smart.

And even if they win, all that does is dispel the drama from the last week or so.  All the stuff we've talked about in this thread?  This wouldn't address those issues at all.  CIG have everything to lose and very little to gain from this.  I don't get why they're doing it.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2015, 12:13:10 am by Aesaar »

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
CIG have everything to lose and very little to gain from this.  I don't get why they're doing it.

Assuming that CIG doesn't know things we don't about it, you'd be right. That's not a good assumption considering the accusations were made about their internal behavior. For all we know they're aware exactly who was spoken to or what was released and can prove it was a Rolling Stone job.
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Offline 666maslo666

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Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen

Then, he asked for $500K to create a game that had:
-Single Player Campaign – Offline or Online (Drop in / Drop out co-op play)
-Persistent Universe
-Mod-able multiplayer
-10X the detail of current AAA games
-Fully dynamic economy driven by player actions


This is not true, 500k was merely the kickstarter goal and it was added later on for those who did not want to pledge through official site.

The original plan was to earn at least $2 million from crowdfunding, which would have proven there is interest in this game and then there were investors lined up who would fund SC up to $20 million. Star Citizen was always supposed to be quite expensive.
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Offline Hades

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Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
TBH it'd have been better for them to barely get over 2 mil and nothing more because investors know how to make sure someone knows what they want and to do it, whereas nerds just know how to give up their money in exchange for jpegs
[22:29] <sigtau> Hello, #hard-light?  I'm trying to tell a girl she looks really good for someone who doesn't exercise.  How do I word that non-offensively?
[22:29] <RangerKarl|AtWork> "you look like a big tasty muffin"
----
<batwota> wouldn’t that mean that it’s prepared to kiss your ass if you flank it :p
<batwota> wow
<batwota> KILL

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
CIG have everything to lose and very little to gain from this.  I don't get why they're doing it.

Assuming that CIG doesn't know things we don't about it, you'd be right. That's not a good assumption considering the accusations were made about their internal behavior. For all we know they're aware exactly who was spoken to or what was released and can prove it was a Rolling Stone job.

I like how "Rolling Stone job" is a thing now :D.

This could be right. It could also be, IMO, merely intimidation to prevent further articles on Star Citizen to come about, not just by the Escapist (who seemed to be on a roll), but by others who were starting to notice and share these problematic leaks.

I noticed a lot of sperging during the weekend. People fervently willing to disprove the "Id Cards" and other nonsense. The amount of defensiveness over this subject is surreal, but the more I look into it, the more convinced I become that the article is genuine and so are the sources.

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
The Escapist doesn't need to prove their claim.  I'm not a lawyer, so take this with a grain of salt, but as I understand it (with the help of a couple of lawyers in the Something Awful thread), under American law, the burden of proof is on CIG.  They'd need to prove that The Escapist knew the claims weren't true and printed them anyway.  Even if they aren't true, so long as The Escapist had reasonable cause to believe they were true, printing them isn't illegal.

Things are different under English law, but both The Escapist and CIG are American companies, and both the states of New York (where The Esacpist is based) and California (where CIG is based) have laws that prevent libel tourism.

I'm having trouble understanding CIG's reasoning here.  This lawsuit would be very difficult to win.  What's more, if they lose, public perception would view that as an admission that what The Escapist wrote was true.  It could utterly ruin them.

You aren't actually saying anything that different from the point I was making when I said they'd regret it. While The Escapist doesn't need to prove their innocence, a court case actually gives them a very big club to go after CIG with. They can now call witnesses and make them testify under penalty of perjury, etc. They might be able to make public records that before they would have avoided doing so. There was a discussion earlier on this thread about how publishing certain emails might be unethical. That goes away when you're using those same emails to defend yourself in court.

That said, if CIG can prove that this was a case of unethical reporting, if it was a Rolling Stone job (Yes, I agree this should become a thing) then they absolutely should sue. If they're really not guilty on all counts, they'd have nothing to worry about. But if Luis is correct and they are trying an intimidation tactic, it could backfire on them spectacularly.
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Offline The E

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Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
I noticed a lot of sperging during the weekend. People fervently willing to disprove the "Id Cards" and other nonsense. The amount of defensiveness over this subject is surreal, but the more I look into it, the more convinced I become that the article is genuine and so are the sources.

If we take CRs claims about this at face value, then those are things one can definitely construct a defamation case around. That the true believers of the Church of the Cloud Imperium jump onto those things as proof that every allegation made by The Escapist is wrong should not be surprising in the least.

Also, bonus popehat
If I'm just aching this can't go on
I came from chasing dreams to feel alone
There must be changes, miss to feel strong
I really need lifе to touch me
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Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Derek Smart might be taking legal action over Star Citizen
I don't think they are "true". The Id cards are genuine, what the SC community manager tried to say in his twitter was that these were some kind of "generic cards", not "id cards". IOW, they didn't prove these guys worked there.

But the problem is in the details. Let's not forget that these cards are specific. It's not that they alone prove they worked there, it proves they had access to cards built in the exact same manner. And they didn't just show the cards. They also showed pay stubs (?). And, apparently, they all looked the same. And there was also corroboration (for at least a few) by checking their LinkedIn accounts.

I see two possibilities of fakery here: either The Escapist is lying and fabricating everything (total fantasy fiction yey!), or all of these guys were highly coordinating between themselves, getting equal cards for each one, printing similar payment papers, forging LinkedIn accounts, etc.

I find both possibilities unlikely. I find the possibility that we are just witnessing disgruntled employees ranting about their last job some orders of magnitude more likely. It would also be consistent with the CIG saying "Well, they are absolutely exagerating everything and it doesn't surprises us, for they are disgruntled", or smth to that effect. But this simpler analysis isn't useful to sue the Escapist. One could speculate that these claims of forgery were "planted" in social media so they can porsue "investigations" of defamation, etc.  A lot harder to do if it's just "disgruntled people", although I don't believe any of these reactions were really "coordinated", it's just all happening with too much rage and in real time.