Author Topic: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.  (Read 43483 times)

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Offline Aesaar

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Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Also, I would really like the tech description (and CB that introduces it) not to be a complete lie. Whatever it is, it's currently nothing like the Flail.
And if Battuta had any interest in making a Blue version of FS1, you can bet that the Flail would change too.  Almost certainly not going to happen though.  It needs it a lot more, but it's also not worth the effort.

With how poor it is in comparison to the Tornado, it could be argued the Hornet was defacto replaced.
The Hornet wasn't replaced because the GTVA has millions of them stockpiled and they're still useful against Shivans.

 

Offline Kie99

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Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Can't get past Proving Grounds no matter what.  Tried completing it legit, using standard cheats, spamming Volition Bravos, failing five times, nothing.  Has anyone else had a similar problem?
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Update your FS Blue install to the latest release, try again.

 

Offline CT27

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Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
How are Hornets still useful Aesar?  If you have access to both, why not take Tornadoes?

 
Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
You can carry more of them and they can be dumbfired to kill cruisers and freighters quickly. Tornados need a lock to do damage.
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Offline MatthTheGeek

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Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Also they are still good enough to track bombers, and the AI will use them better against freighters and cruisers than they would tempests or even cyclops.
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Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
How well AI uses them is getting game-y though, not a real in-universe reason.
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Offline BirdofPrey

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Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
And if Battuta had any interest in making a Blue version of FS1, you can bet that the Flail would change too.  Almost certainly not going to happen though.  It needs it a lot more, but it's also not worth the effort.
Now what's wrong with the flail?  Why would that need a change?
Sure lacking (appreciable) hull damage can be a bummer, and the knock around isn't all THAT useful, but it strips shields better than most other things and the high volume of fire and lack of hull damage makes it good for intercepting warheads especially ones fired against soft targets.
Both of those factors make it a great second slot primary against bombers.

As for Hornets, even if Tornadoes are a definite upgrade, there's sometimes an advantage to being able to hold more shots worth of hornets, and they are still plenty effective against bombers and basilisks who can't effectively dodge them, and can be fired from the hip against larger ships.  Also, tempest isn't any better at tracking in high angle scenarios than the hornet; it just has the advantage that you're less likely to only get a partial hit.  I'd go as far as to say the Hornet is the Apollo of the missile world: competent at most everything, but great at nothing, so in a varied environment it does well (since you can't take a missile for every specific scenario), otherwise there's better things.
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Offline MatthTheGeek

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Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
How well AI uses them is getting game-y though, not a real in-universe reason.
As far as I'm concerned, in-universe it means rookies will also be able to use them better - pretty sure it makes sense for rookies in-universe to be able to use hornets better than tempests.
People are stupid, therefore anything popular is at best suspicious.

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666maslo666: Releasing a finished product is not a good thing! It is a modern fad.

SpardaSon21: it seems like you exist in a permanent state of half-joking misanthropy

Axem: when you put it like that, i sound like an insane person

bigchunk1: it's not retarded it's american!
bigchunk1: ...

batwota: steele's maneuvering for the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: you mispelled grâce
Awaesaar: grace
batwota: oh right :P
Darius: ah!
Darius: yes, i like that
MatthTheGeek: the way you just spelled it it means fat
Awaesaar: +accent I forgot how to keyboard
MatthTheGeek: or grease
Darius: the killing fat!
Axem: jabba does the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: XD
Axem: bring me solo and a cookie

 
Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
The Hornet is hardly good at everything though. That honour belongs to the Tempest. The Hornet is good at killing cruisers and bombers and not much else. And even then the Tempest is better for that unless you commit to Hornets and take 2 banks so you can rapidly switch and dumbfire them.
[19:31] <MatthTheGeek> you all high up on your mointain looking down at everyone who doesn't beam everything on insane blindfolded

 

Offline Aesaar

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Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
How are Hornets still useful Aesar?  If you have access to both, why not take Tornadoes?
Because they're there and you don't need Tornadoes to kill bombers.  This is a strategic concern, not a tactical one.  You give pilots Hornets because they're dependable and you have a ****load of them.

Now what's wrong with the flail?  Why would that need a change?
Same thing wrong with the Morning Star.  Whack effects aren't fun, which means you can't outfit enemies with weapons that have it.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2016, 10:51:52 pm by Aesaar »

 

Offline Dragon

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Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
The goal with FS Blue is to make the FreeSpace 2 primaries more interesting within FreeSpace 2.

The Morning Star can proximity-detonate and deal CIWS damage, making it excellent against bombs at long range.

The Morning Star's original niche as described in the voiced CB is not an interesting design space right now.
That sounds like something GTVA would develop in order to counter UEF's bomb swarms. Yeah, I suppose I can try using it in bomb-heavy missions, but as far as I'm concerned, the old version would've worked for that purpose well enough if it wasn't for the energy drain (it did work on lower difficulty levels). Shivans don't use huge bomb swarms, so I see no particular reason to have a weapon specifically designed to deal with them. "Can't give it to (enemy) AI" is a crappy reason for depriving the player of an otherwise useful weapon. FS2 is ultimately player-oriented, there's nothing wrong with having a weapon which "player/friendly AI only".

I would certainly have been against changing Flail at all. In fact, all the original FS1 weapons are perfectly fine except for the Synaptic. Silent Threat introduced a few of marginal utility, which carried over to FS2 with little improvement.

 
Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.

 depriving the player of an otherwise useful weapon.


We're talking about the Morning star here. Stop pretending it was useful in any way aside from saving the Fenris in Proving Grounds.
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Offline Aesaar

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Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
That sounds like something GTVA would develop in order to counter UEF's bomb swarms. Yeah, I suppose I can try using it in bomb-heavy missions, but as far as I'm concerned, the old version would've worked for that purpose well enough if it wasn't for the energy drain (it did work on lower difficulty levels). Shivans don't use huge bomb swarms, so I see no particular reason to have a weapon specifically designed to deal with them. "Can't give it to (enemy) AI" is a crappy reason for depriving the player of an otherwise useful weapon. FS2 is ultimately player-oriented, there's nothing wrong with having a weapon which "player/friendly AI only".
Considering FS Blue is essentially the BP continuity version of FS2 (you might be able to tell by the name and the fact that it needs BP to run), having a weapon which is player/friendly AI only is absolutely an issue.

And if you don't like that, there is nothing stopping you from removing the edits made to the Morning Star yourself.  It's not like it's hard.

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I would certainly have been against changing Flail at all. In fact, all the original FS1 weapons are perfectly fine except for the Synaptic.
You're kidding, right?  This has got to be a joke.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
The Morning Star is better and more fun now, but if we find ways to improve or redesign it further in playtesting, we'll chase those too.

 

Offline Dragon

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Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
For the record, I don't think so. It's marginally more useful, but I consider it a wasted opportunity. The idea that "all weapons need to be fun when used against the player" is a needless restriction that feel right out of a multiplayer game. It's not any less of a contrivance than seeing a weapon that is only used by friendlies.
We're talking about the Morning star here. Stop pretending it was useful in any way aside from saving the Fenris in Proving Grounds.
No, but it could be made useful. There are far better ways of making it so, among them being actually making it "Flail Mk2" it's supposed to be. The current weird "anti-bomb flak" with anti-shield effect is kind of meh.
Quote
I would certainly have been against changing Flail at all. In fact, all the original FS1 weapons are perfectly fine except for the Synaptic.
You're kidding, right?  This has got to be a joke.
And what exactly would be the problems with the original FS1 weapons? The Disruptor and ML-16 were of limited utility later on, but this was by design (seeing as they were pre-shield era weapons). Synaptic was crap, but all similar weapons were. I didn't see any problems with the others, last time I played.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Player-AI parity is a BP design tenet.

 
Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Just a note;
The morning star was used in 50-75% of multiplayer load outs. BD and I were amongst the few that didn't carry it as standard, but even we used it on occasion (me more than him, mostly to manipulate opponents..)

Single player... poor mans maxim.
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Offline Dragon

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Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Interesting. You're talking about PvP, right? I would expect it to be annoying to other players. But then again, while "fish, fire and (forgot the third one, was it EMP?)" were not used in MP on a gentleman's agreement (at least as far as I've read during one wiki binge), this one was very much in use.

Is the retail Morning Star really as annoying in hands of AI as it's made out to be (note, we're not talking turrets, as they're governed by slightly different rules to main guns), or is that actually a misconception? I know that their firing technique is somewhat artificial, not to mention heavily altered by difficulty. Maybe the solution would be not changing the Morning Star, but making the AI use it more like a human player would?

 

Offline Aesaar

  • 210
Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
And what exactly would be the problems with the original FS1 weapons? The Disruptor and ML-16 were of limited utility later on, but this was by design (seeing as they were pre-shield era weapons). Synaptic was crap, but all similar weapons were. I didn't see any problems with the others, last time I played.
How about the fact that the Avenger was according to stats flat-out the best weapon and if you took anything else you were less effective?

Quote
Is the retail Morning Star really as annoying in hands of AI as it's made out to be (note, we're not talking turrets, as they're governed by slightly different rules to main guns), or is that actually a misconception? I know that their firing technique is somewhat artificial, not to mention heavily altered by difficulty. Maybe the solution would be not changing the Morning Star, but making the AI use it more like a human player would?
Make and play (on insane) a test mission and put it on bomber turrets and enemy fighters.  Try to score kills with your primaries.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2016, 02:42:27 am by Aesaar »