Author Topic: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.  (Read 43530 times)

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Offline Droid803

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Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Why kill its one gimmick though?
Surely you could have buffed the damage and kept the kinetic effect.
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Losing control is anti fun for players. Still, it might be worth bringing it back so as to keep compatibility with the CB text...

 
Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Yeah, I will often never even use it in Proving Grounds because once the first part is over with, I need real weapons. So I usually load out with my favorite weapons and just allow Delta to win so that I can get on with what really matters. I don't want to be stuck with just ONE useful gun the whole time.

I have always found the Morning Star to be the most useless weapon in Freespace 2. I am far faster at getting my job done with dual HL-7s or better (with missiles, of course).
Why do you say "as" instead of "because"?

 

Offline Dragon

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Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Yeah, let's not pretend it was useful anywhere outside of Proving Grounds. It wasn't even good for disrupting formations because it cost so much energy(more than the kayser!) to fire meaning you'd be better off just using a real weapon to kill them instead.
True, I would have decreased its energy cost. This is mostly a problem in higher difficulties. On easy, this was a somewhat useful anti bomb/bomber supplementary weapon. Dual HL-7s are, strictly speaking, not any more effective than a single one, due to ROF reduction. The second slot is good to use for a supplementary weapon such as Morning Star. TBH, the most useless FS2 weapon for me was the Prometheus R, followed by Akheton SDG.
So your problem with the new Morning Star is that it's more generally useful and less of a gimmick weapon?
Yes. FS has many other "generally useful" weapons. Shortly after you get Morning Star, you get Prometheus-S, which now makes it utterly obsolete. It sort of had its niche before, even if it was very situational. If anything, the role it now fills should be filled by Prometheus R (which is utter crap, unfortunately).
Losing control is anti fun for players. Still, it might be worth bringing it back so as to keep compatibility with the CB text...
It's not you who is losing control there, isn't it? I don't remember AI being issued Morning Star very much. You can keep the kinetic effect off (or reduce it) on the "D" version if you feel the need to balance stuff for multiplayer. Besides, compatibility with the CB text would also be good to have, since it's now quite blatantly false.

I'd make the Morning Star keep the current stats, but lose the shockwave and gain the kick. Essentially, bring it more inline with FS1's Flail. A decent early shield breaker with an added kinetic effect. Flail was also a surprisingly good subsystem killer.

 

Offline AdmiralRalwood

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Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Dual HL-7s are, strictly speaking, not any more effective than a single one, due to ROF reduction.
This is only true of 4/2 banks, like the Myrmidon. For a 2/2 pair like the Perseus or Herc 2, firing both banks gives you a 50% DPS increase, as the ROF reduction for two linked banks only drops it to 2/3rds.
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Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Your math is off. 2 bank 'DPS' is 2 while 2+2 makes it 4x0.666..=2,666... It's a 33% increase, a 50% increase would take it to 3.
50% is the difference between a 4-bank and 2+2
« Last Edit: December 30, 2015, 10:37:23 am by FrikgFeek »
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Offline AdmiralRalwood

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Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Your math is off.
Yes, it is. The point, however, remains unchanged.
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<MageKing17> "There's probably a reason the code is the way it is" is a very dangerous line of thought. :P
<MageKing17> Because the "reason" often turns out to be "nobody noticed it was wrong".
(the very next day)
<MageKing17> this ****ing code did it to me again
<MageKing17> "That doesn't really make sense to me, but I'll assume it was being done for a reason."
<MageKing17> **** ME
<MageKing17> THE REASON IS PEOPLE ARE STUPID
<MageKing17> ESPECIALLY ME

<MageKing17> God damn, I do not understand how this is breaking.
<MageKing17> Everything points to "this should work fine", and yet it's clearly not working.
<MjnMixael> 2 hours later... "God damn, how did this ever work at all?!"
(...)
<MageKing17> so
<MageKing17> more than two hours
<MageKing17> but once again we have reached the inevitable conclusion
<MageKing17> How did this code ever work in the first place!?

<@The_E> Welcome to OpenGL, where standards compliance is optional, and error reporting inconsistent

<MageKing17> It was all working perfectly until I actually tried it on an actual mission.

<IronWorks> I am useful for FSO stuff again. This is a red-letter day!
* z64555 erases "Thursday" and rewrites it in red ink

<MageKing17> TIL the entire homing code is held up by shoestrings and duct tape, basically.

 

Offline Aesaar

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Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Yes. FS has many other "generally useful" weapons. Shortly after you get Morning Star, you get Prometheus-S, which now makes it utterly obsolete. It sort of had its niche before, even if it was very situational. If anything, the role it now fills should be filled by Prometheus R (which is utter crap, unfortunately).
It's better for it to be made obsolete by the Prom-S than to be useless from the start.  Gimmick weapons suck.

Quote
It's not you who is losing control there, isn't it? I don't remember AI being issued Morning Star very much.
Why do you think that is?  The kinetic effect is what makes the Morning Star completely unusable by enemy AI because it just isn't fun to get shot by it.

It's really funny to put it on bomber turrets because it makes them almost completely untouchable.  Same goes for warship turrets.  That's not good design.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2015, 12:08:13 pm by Aesaar »

 

Offline MatthTheGeek

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Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
It's not you who is losing control there, isn't it? I don't remember AI being issued Morning Star very much.
You're mistaking effect and cause. The MS isn't issued a lot to AI because it would suck for the player (same as EMP). By making the MS more of a "standard" weapon, it opens the way for it to be used more widely in the future.
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Exactly.

 

Offline Dragon

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Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Except that with Prom S, Prom R (it sucks, but for AI that's what you may want), Kayser and the HL-7, I think that there's hardly any reason to add Morning Star to the list of "regular weapons". The only reason to use it now is that it comes before Prom-S (only a few missions, but still). For AI, this limitation doesn't really apply. The only thing that differentiates Morning Star is the range, which is longer than the typical engagement range with AI. It would be fine if it wasn't for poor hull damage, as fighters are near impossible to hit from this far (for both player and AI) and large ships have no shields to strip off. As it happens, we have another long range weapon that does hull damage - the Maxim.
Quote
You're mistaking effect and cause. The MS isn't issued a lot to AI because it would suck for the player (same as EMP). By making the MS more of a "standard" weapon, it opens the way for it to be used more widely in the future.
No, I'm not. I'm pointing out that in retail FS, it's a player-only weapon, so as far as retail experience goes, nerfing the kinetic effect only harms the player. I have never felt the need for yet another regular weapon. It's been changed from useless to redundant, a lateral move IMO.
Quote
It's better for it to be made obsolete by the Prom-S than to be useless from the start.  Gimmick weapons suck.
How about making it somewhat useful even after Prom-S is introduced? Kinetic effect should stay, because it's what sets it apart from other weapons. Gimmick-only weapons suck, but if it's got useful damage on top of that, it might be fun to use. Flail was like that, being a decent shield killer for early FS1 missions. It wasn't used much by AI (well, except if you gave it to them, which was kind of fun), but I haven't heard complaints about it.

Now that I think of it, there might be another way of approaching the problem (inspired by the "bomber turrets" comment). The kinetic effect is only so problematic because Morning Star has a ridiculously long range. If it was, say, a very short ranged weapon, it could become an interesting element. It would kick you off if you came close to the bombers, forcing you to engage them with long-range weapons and missiles instead of going in very close (like I usually find myself doing). Of course, nerfing the range severely enough to make this work would also severely limit the (already limited) usefulness to the player unless damage was buffed to be very high. This would result in an utterly bizzare weapon (does high damage, but tends to knock enemies right out of its pathetic range :)) that I'm not sure would be fun to use, though.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
You're mistaken. The current Morning Star has capabilities no other weapon can provide. (And the Prom R has been buffed to about Subach levels too).

The Morning Star won't be designed as a player-only weapon because we want the ability to give it to Tev enemies

 

Offline Bryan See

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Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
What about FS1-era Shivan fighters and bombers such as the SF Scorpion, the SF Gorgon, and the SB Shaitan? What about them?
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Offline Nyctaeus

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Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
What about... What o__O?

They are not present in FS2 campaign neither in FS2: Blue. This is not gonna change.
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Offline Mars

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Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Two of them are some of the ugliest fighters in FS1 and one of them never appeared in FS1, FS2, or Blue Planet.

 

Offline Dragon

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Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
You're mistaken. The current Morning Star has capabilities no other weapon can provide. (And the Prom R has been buffed to about Subach levels too).
What would those capabilities be? It's sort of a long range anti-shield weapon. It's also a decent anti-bomb weapon. What can I do with it that I can't do with a Prom S (or any other gun, for that matter)?

Also, I would really like the tech description (and CB that introduces it) not to be a complete lie. Whatever it is, it's currently nothing like the Flail. Really, BP should introduce more new GTVA weapons than just the Balor (consider that as GTVA replaced every single weapon aside from Prometheus and Hornet between FS1 and FS2), instead of appropriating FS2 ones into a completely different role from what they used to be.

 
Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
The techroom description was changed, the briefing is voiced and therefore has to stay. As for new GTVA weapons there's the Balor and the Balrog, you don't really need much more than that considering how much warships weapons have changed.

The 32 year gap between FS1 and FS2 didn't radically alter warships or warship weapons aside from beams and flak. The 18 year gap between FS2 and BP added more new warships and changed all the beams and PD turrets on the new stuff. 3 new corvettes, 2 destroyers, and 1 cruiser vs 1 destroyer, 1 corvette, and 1 cruiser.

It's not too much to assume that gimmick weapons weren't worked on that much as they never saw use. Maybe there simply wasn't a demand for a new Akethon, Lamprey, or Morning Star. You could make a point for a maxim or missile straight upgrade but they're already good enough(the maxim and treb are too good, actually). Making newer, better versions would require a lot of rebalancing.

The morning star fills a niche for 4-2 fighters flying intercept that use the balor in their 4-bank and can't use the maxim in their 2-bank. It's the best bomb intercept weapon and having 2000 range helps kills bombs if your primary is the 1100 range balor. It's straight up better than the Prom-S in that role as the prom has a low firerate and less range.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2016, 08:50:46 pm by FrikgFeek »
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Offline CT27

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Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
You're mistaken. The current Morning Star has capabilities no other weapon can provide. (And the Prom R has been buffed to about Subach levels too).
What would those capabilities be? It's sort of a long range anti-shield weapon. It's also a decent anti-bomb weapon. What can I do with it that I can't do with a Prom S (or any other gun, for that matter)?

Also, I would really like the tech description (and CB that introduces it) not to be a complete lie. Whatever it is, it's currently nothing like the Flail. Really, BP should introduce more new GTVA weapons than just the Balor (consider that as GTVA replaced every single weapon aside from Prometheus and Hornet between FS1 and FS2), instead of appropriating FS2 ones into a completely different role from what they used to be.

With how poor it is in comparison to the Tornado, it could be argued the Hornet was defacto replaced.

 
Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Also, creating new weapons would completely miss the point. Some of these updates were made so that the FS2 weapon pool is more varied and not just a choice between the highest DPS weapon you can access atm(Hl-7 start,  PromS/Kayser later) and the maxim as the only other useful primary.

With the new stuff you actually have a reason to take the Circe for the anti-shield alpha or the lamprey to shut down cruisers and easily take them out. There are weapons you can feel good about having in your 2-bank aside from the maxim because they have real situational use, not just a gimmick that simply never paid off.
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
You're mistaken. The current Morning Star has capabilities no other weapon can provide. (And the Prom R has been buffed to about Subach levels too).
What would those capabilities be? It's sort of a long range anti-shield weapon. It's also a decent anti-bomb weapon. What can I do with it that I can't do with a Prom S (or any other gun, for that matter)?

Also, I would really like the tech description (and CB that introduces it) not to be a complete lie. Whatever it is, it's currently nothing like the Flail. Really, BP should introduce more new GTVA weapons than just the Balor (consider that as GTVA replaced every single weapon aside from Prometheus and Hornet between FS1 and FS2), instead of appropriating FS2 ones into a completely different role from what they used to be.

The goal with FS Blue is to make the FreeSpace 2 primaries more interesting within FreeSpace 2.

The Morning Star can proximity-detonate and deal CIWS damage, making it excellent against bombs at long range.

The Morning Star's original niche as described in the voiced CB is not an interesting design space right now.