[Kellan]

Originally posted by Carl

it's still more money. bah, we don't even have to give anything.

Yeah, 'cause it's not like American wealth rests on slavery, exploitation of the Third World and war profiteering, is it? Is it? The West in general needs to be more generous, given that average income in the West is 37 times greater than in the Third World. Tiara is right that 3.89% more would solve a lot of problems, and excusing yourself by saying you have a bigger economy anyway is no excuse at all. Bottom line: the Netherlands sacrifice more for a better future for the Third World than The US does.

I'll go off and find the new World Bank report that was published today. I think it deserves its own thread, though.

[icespeed]

any talk about politics is pointless, but I'd like to make several points anyway:

- quoting newspapers = quoting Western propaganda, which is obviously biased, unless you quote Iraqian (or whatever) propaganda; in which case its biased the other way. There's no such thing as unbiased media, so if you want proof you can't quote newspapers.
- America is neither the worse country nor the best country. It is merely a country whose actions are the most noticeable, and therefore it's mistakes and (insert the antonym; i can't think of it at the moment) are also the most noticeable
- the only way to become the leader is to get rid of your opponents. Saddam Hussein merely did this in a more extreme way.

in any case, attacking Iraq without fully thinking it through is stupid.

[NeoHunter]

The reason why I think America shouldn't just go into Iraq is simple. How can you just go into another country and oust the president as and when you like? For god's sake! There's something called the United Nations. If the US can go into other countries as and when they like, then what's the use of having a United Nations at all? It would become rather redundant, don't you think? The United Nations is where problems in the world can be discussed and solved peacefully. War should be the last thing on everybody's minds.

Just because America has one of the most advanced and most powerful military does not mean they should do whatever they like. Its not like I am against America. I think America has brought many technological advancements into this world. But everyday I read the newspapers and I see America this and America that. Its like they want to be the world's policeman.

Some of you may not know it but a lot of countries think the US is a bit too much of a busybody. Always poking their noses into other countries domestic problems. Especially China and other communist countries. Why bother with them?

And also the industries that sell arms to other countries. They know that there is tension between Taiwan and China. Selling defensive weapons to Taiwan was bad enough. Sure. You would say that it was sold to Taiwan for defense. Fine. But now these same industries are selling OFFENSIVE weapons to Taiwan?! WTF??!! And the US government doesn't even care! Is the US trying to start a war here or something?

[Tiara]

@ NeoHunter & Kellan & Icespeed

[Kellan]

Originally posted by icespeed
any talk about politics is pointless, but I'd like to make several points anyway:

- quoting newspapers = quoting Western propaganda, which is obviously biased, unless you quote Iraqian (or whatever) propaganda; in which case its biased the other way. There's no such thing as unbiased media, so if you want proof you can't quote newspapers.
- America is neither the worse country nor the best country. It is merely a country whose actions are the most noticeable, and therefore it's mistakes and (insert the antonym; i can't think of it at the moment) are also the most noticeable
- the only way to become the leader is to get rid of your opponents. Saddam Hussein merely did this in a more extreme way.

in any case, attacking Iraq without fully thinking it through is stupid.

I'd say that talking about politics is essential. If we don't, someone else will do something without our knowledge or consent, and by the time it's done it'll be too late.

However, I generally agree with the rest of your statements. All countries have blood on their hands but at the moment, America is the one people scrutinise. Fifty years ago it was Britain. However, that time Britain at least gave up its colonialist fantasies. And yes, I'm sure that Bush called in favours to economically beat his opponents or to blackmail them or use the internal politics of the Republican Party against them. He didn't have the luxury of bullets, but the priniciple is the same.

About biased media: you can always try to look for more or less biased media - but since every person has an inherent bias, the less biased ones are certainly more acceptable in a mass-concensus way.

[icespeed]

Neo! You've hit it right on the spot! THat's exactly what the US is trying to do!
It's an American conspiracy against the rest of the world and because it's America, they'll win!

( WARNING: Do not take this post seriously. It's meant to be taken in the spirit of a _joke_.)

[Kellan]

Originally posted by NeoHunter
The reason why I think America shouldn't just go into Iraq is simple. How can you just go into another country and oust the president as and when you like? For god's sake! There's something called the United Nations. If the US can go into other countries as and when they like, then what's the use of having a United Nations at all? It would become rather redundant, don't you think? The United Nations is where problems in the world can be discussed and solved peacefully. War should be the last thing on everybody's minds.

Oh thank the Lord. Somebody shows the necessary brainpower to understand the ideological precedent that this attack would set.

[icespeed]

you realise that they do things without our consent anyway, Kellan.
the best we commoner civilians can do is kick up a fuss, which will have no effect on the Powers That Be anyway.

[Kellan]

Originally posted by icespeed
Neo! You've hit it right on the spot! THat's exactly what the US is trying to do!

Do you doubt that America would dearly love to see Communism out of the way in China? One billion people is a whole lot of market opportunity.

[Tiara]

Originally posted by icespeed
Neo! You've hit it right on the spot! THat's exactly what the US is trying to do!
It's an American conspiracy against the rest of the world and because it's America, they'll win!

( WARNING: Do not take this post seriously. It's meant to be taken in the spirit of a _joke_.)

Me >  

Me >  

Me >  

Me >  

[Kellan]

Originally posted by icespeed
you realise that they do things without our consent anyway, Kellan.
the best we commoner civilians can do is kick up a fuss, which will have no effect on the Powers That Be anyway.

October Revolution icespeed, October Revolution.

[icespeed]

and that was once in more that how many years of history?

[Kellan]

Originally posted by icespeed
and that was once in more that how many years of history?

It's a powerful example. But look at the collapse of the USSR, the overthrow of the Mexican, Korean, Vietnamese governments - and most recently, the overthrow of the Argentinian government.

Trust me, when things get bad enough there are plenty of revolutions.

[icespeed]

No, when things get bad enough, one small group of people convince the people to form a People's Militia and then when everything's over they set themselves up as before in a slightly different form, so that history can repeat itself.
Ever wonder why that phrase exists? Cos it's true. People are stupid. They can never get rid of all the tyrants, which is why they keep rising.

[NeoHunter]

But war should be avoided at all costs. Right now, the US seems to be enjoying going to war with other countries. I agree that a strike into Afganistan to weed out Al-Queda(sp?) was right. Terrorism should be stopped.

But the China-Taiwan issue should be left alone. The US government should stop the sales of arms to Taiwan. Right now, everybody sees it as the US is trying to start a war here indirectly. China will finally go to war with Taiwan when Taiwan president Chen Shui Bian does something stupid like say that Taiwan is independent. The US, like the world's policeman that they are trying to be, will step in with battleships, carriers, fighters and bombers and join in the bloodshed. Is that what the US really wants? Does the Us government really like killing so much?

[Crazy_Ivan80]

Originally posted by icespeed
you realise that they do things without our consent anyway, Kellan.
the best we commoner civilians can do is kick up a fuss, which will have no effect on the Powers That Be anyway.

Icespeed: it's because of this fatalism they can. They know we won't do anything, so they just go ahead.

[icespeed]

Neohunter. Are you saying that all countries should mind their own damn business? Cos they're not going to. It's not in human nature to keep your nose to yourself, and it's not in human nature to be peaceful, either. Humans might have all these nice, fancy ideological ideas, but have any of them ever worked?
I mean, communism was a _good_ idea... until it got put into practice, when human nature stuffed the theory up.

[Kellan]

Originally posted by icespeed
No, when things get bad enough, one small group of people convince the people to form a People's Militia and then when everything's over they set themselves up as before in a slightly different form, so that history can repeat itself.
Ever wonder why that phrase exists? Cos it's true. People are stupid. They can never get rid of all the tyrants, which is why they keep rising.

History never repeats itself. The phrase "history repeats itself" is used by crass armchair historians with no sense for the details of a historical issue. Sure, if you look at something vaguely enough it appears to be like something else. Saying something like "this is a war with tanks, and so was that one so they are the same" is too vague to be accurate. It's like saying that all vehicles with four wheels are cars, and are all the same because they have the same basic characteristics.

Besides, there are lots of historical events that will never repeat. Look at climate change - that's unprecedented in recorded human history for the reasons it is happening now.

[Kellan]

Originally posted by Crazy_Ivan80
Icespeed: it's because of this fatalism they can. They know we won't do anything, so they just go ahead.

Yeah. Fight the Power, as some people said.

[Crazy_Ivan80]

Originally posted by Kellan


October Revolution icespeed, October Revolution.

not really a good example.

better examples are:

1776-85: not really a revolution in the typical sence as it was a war of independence mostly, but the changes made and the impact on France were vital!

1789 -> 1792/3 (4 or 5 consecutive revolutions in France)

1815:  not a revolution but the opposite. This set the stage for further revolutions.

1830: new revolutions creating at least 1 'liberal' (for that time) democracy (Belgium)

1848: Definitive end of the Monarchy in France, another series of revolutions in Europe

the list goes on for quite a while still with

1968: massive protests

being the most important revolutionary date for the 20th century in Western Europe.