Author Topic: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq  (Read 36661 times)

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Offline CP5670

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OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
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Really? Bollocks. you're implying that all humans search for knowledge - truth is, very few do. the majority just assimilate what they get told. i bet 90% of your opinions, like most of us here, are based on what you've been told, not what you've actively sought out.


That is still searching for knowledge. If you assimilate what you are told, you are attempting to gain knowledge. And how much do you want bet on that last statement? :D (it can be verified in 9-10 years)

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I think you'll find that much of our behaviour is intrinsic from birth - we can see, we can suckle, we know we don't want to wet ourselves, we know we need to sleep, we recognise our parents and trust them - i'm sure a child psychologist could give you a vast list of this behaviour.


And this is much of our behavior? Notice that this all has to do with personal survival and does not even involve other humans. (trusting parents is not in the same category as the rest; we learn to do that)

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I'm moral, because I feel I need to be. It's instinct for me.....


And bin Laden is the way he is because he instinctively feels he needs to be, and suicide bombers blow up stuff because they feel they need to. :D Actually, I feel this instinct just as much as you do because I have been brought up in the same kind of surroundings, but I at least have recognized that, like every other "intuitive" thing out there, it is almost like a fatal disease when it comes to philosophical speculation.

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Does that mean your emotions are giving you an instinctive moral reaction to a given situation, so you know what's right?


Yes they are, just as they are for anyone else in the world today, but they are not necessarily helpful to my objectives. Just because you "feel" that something is right is no reason to rationally assume that it is right, or even influence thinking in that direction one bit.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2002, 09:40:48 pm by 296 »

 

Offline aldo_14

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OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
It's interesting how, the more intelligent people are, the less they seem to be able to trust their brain.  Or their emotions.  Possibly because they can't control nor understand them, and that, in some way, scares them.

 

Offline CP5670

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OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Perhaps that is because the more they learn, the more they are realizing that what they previously thought they understood and controlled is actually neither understood nor controlled. ;) (yet, that is)

 

Offline Bobboau

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OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
or perhapse they fear a loss of control, or are useing there knowleg to gain a sence of superiority over others
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Offline wEvil

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OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
I resent "feeling stupid".

I don't think there's any point in feeling superior to anybody because more often than not it just annoys them.

But the brain is like a muscle, excersise it and it gets better (marginally).  If you're stuck doinga mind-numblingly boring job (like I am at the moment) you realise just how important a deal of mental stimulation is.

 

Offline Fineus

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OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
There's nothing wrong with a sense of superiority - that can be kept safely in your own head. It's when you begin to let that affect how you interact with others that you (or they) get problems.

Add the posession of power into the mix and things get even worse.

 

Offline Sandwich

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OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
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Originally posted by Thunder
There's nothing wrong with a sense of superiority - that can be kept safely in your own head. It's when you begin to let that affect how you interact with others that you (or they) get problems.

Add the posession of power into the mix and things get even worse.


I'm not sure I agree with you there - an inner sense of superiority can and does affect our subconcious behavior in ways that we simply cannot notice nor control. Body language, gestures, even habits can change after some time. And usually (unless that person had suffered previously from a complete lack of self-worth), those changes are not positive ones.

So one needs to be careful about, essentially, pride.

"Let other lips praise you, not your own."
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"The very essence of tolerance rests on the fact that we have to be intolerant of intolerance. Stretching right back to Kant, through the Frankfurt School and up to today, liberalism means that we can do anything we like as long as we don't hurt others. This means that if we are tolerant of others' intolerance - especially when that intolerance is a call for genocide - then all we are doing is allowing that intolerance to flourish, and allowing the violence that will spring from that intolerance to continue unabated." - Bren Carlill

  

Offline CP5670

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OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
I think I agree with sandwich there; these things cannot really be removed as long as a "free will" exists, and some of these so-called "bad" traits (pride included) are one of the things that keep the human civilization progressing. Of course, that applies as a mainstream rule for the masses rather than for individual people. ;)

 

Offline aldo_14

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OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
#what about the pride that drives people on to achieve greater things?  Or the free will to experiment in ways that might not be open to them if other people had influence over them....... free will is one of the thing sthat defines humanity - don't knock it.

 

Offline Sandwich

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OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Quote
Originally posted by aldo_14
#what about the pride that drives people on to achieve greater things?  Or the free will to experiment in ways that might not be open to them if other people had influence over them....... free will is one of the thing sthat defines humanity - don't knock it.


:wtf: How did you get from pride to free will?? :confused:
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"...The quintessential quality of our age is that of dreams coming true. Just think of it. For centuries we have dreamt of flying; recently we made that come true: we have always hankered for speed; now we have speeds greater than we can stand: we wanted to speak to far parts of the Earth; we can: we wanted to explore the sea bottom; we have: and so  on, and so on: and, too, we wanted the power to smash our enemies utterly; we have it. If we had truly wanted peace, we should have had that as well. But true peace has never been one of the genuine dreams - we have got little further than preaching against war in order to appease our consciences. The truly wishful dreams, the many-minded dreams are now irresistible - they become facts." - 'The Outward Urge' by John Wyndham

"The very essence of tolerance rests on the fact that we have to be intolerant of intolerance. Stretching right back to Kant, through the Frankfurt School and up to today, liberalism means that we can do anything we like as long as we don't hurt others. This means that if we are tolerant of others' intolerance - especially when that intolerance is a call for genocide - then all we are doing is allowing that intolerance to flourish, and allowing the violence that will spring from that intolerance to continue unabated." - Bren Carlill

 

Offline Stryke 9

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OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Yeah! Let's nuke those sand niggers and everyone else in that hemisphere! That'll teach the bastards to fail to emulate our politics and suck up to us! So what if we're at least as much of a threat to the world? So what if, at the very least, if Saddam really has bio-bombs this'd be the best exusce in the friggin' universe to use 'em? I want an a-rab head mounted on my Jeep hood! And while we're at it, we should move into a full-scale empire and take over those goddamn European ingrates, because everything is our ****ing business! USA! USA! USA!

Man, that felt good. Now I kinda don't wanna go back to using rational arguments. And I get to be offensive if I'm sarcastic! Whee!
« Last Edit: August 27, 2002, 09:14:25 pm by 262 »

 

Offline Stryke 9

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OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
All right, how about this reason not to invade Iraq: It's none of our damned business. If the US is an empire, I'd feel much better if we came out and admitted it. Until then, we are most certainly NOT the high moral ground, or the judge of the world. Hell, we're the only industrialized Western nation still killing its own citizens. Like it or not, we're the psycho hicks of the world, and the less we meddle in other peoples' business, the better. And that includes to the extent of letting a charismatic despot kill his own people. When they get sick of it, they'll kick his ass something good, just like has ALWAYS HAPPENED, WITHOUT FAIL, when the government became too much, throughout history. The only reason to really intervene is that we're greedy powermongers, using this as a lever to increase our chokehold on the one area of the world that still openly bares its teeth to US imperialism. And our government's at least as despotic as Saddam, if recent foreign policy trends are any indicator, it's just that our government does it to everyone else's people.

Or, if you want to go the pro-US route, because our greedy powermongering and meddling where we should not is already losing us our allies. Europe, once essentially a puppet of the US, is really starting to get uncomfortable with us. Most nations already are starting to get unpleaasant with the US, like the drunk at a party that keeps picking fights, feeling up the women, and making loud declarations. We're toeing the line where they throw us out, except that in international politics, the dude doesn't go throw up in the nearest dumpster, the nation has its leaders killed, its morale crushed, and its population effectively enslaved by the invaders. I'm sick of being dicked with by government as it is, I don't wanna be a colony. The colony, as always in history, really gets it up the collective arse, and it's not fun.

 

Offline CP5670

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OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
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#what about the pride that drives people on to achieve greater things?  Or the free will to experiment in ways that might not be open to them if other people had influence over them....... free will is one of the thing sthat defines humanity - don't knock it.


But do they have a free will? The individuals' likes and dislikes, which directly determine their wills, are almost completely based on their cultural surroundings as they are growing up, and they think it is a conscious decision.

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It's none of our damned business.


Once again, everything is everyone's business; using ethical arguments everywhere is just making you look silly. The US is indeed the big evil empire of the world and composed up of "greedy powermongers," and what is wrong with that?
« Last Edit: August 27, 2002, 11:18:09 pm by 296 »

 

Offline Liberator

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OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
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Originally posted by Tiara


Didn't say that... But simply invading is stupid.


Stupid how?

Stryke 9, how's this for moral high-ground.
If and when we go in to get him and his cronies we will be acting to prevent him from igniting a war that would end up killing millions.

Example
Say he has some Nukes and uses them on Israel.  What's Israel going to do?  Nuke him back till the entire country glows.  Then Syria gets involved and invades from the east, and Egypt from the west.  The Isreali army moves and blunts the invasion.  Isreal is good but their not that good, so we move in and help.  Meanwhile, the @#$@# castrated European Union sit there and shouts instead of helping to stabilze an already huge disaster, because they still think they can negotiate their way out.  Remember, Words don't work with everybody.  Often as not they only stave off the inevitable.

Another thing why do you think they hate Israel and the United States?

1.  Israel and the United States are Republics.  Meaning that the citizentry is free to act as they will within certain loose guidelines.  This is anethema to dictators and true powermongers the world over.

2.  They hate Israel because its Israel, and the hatred goes back MILLENIA, not decades, or a century.  The Hatred of Israel predates the Roman empire.

3.  On some level, they hate Israel for having green grass and fields while they're own countries are essentially wasteland.
So as through a glass, and darkly
The age long strife I see
Where I fought in many guises,
Many names, but always me.

There are only 10 types of people in the world , those that understand binary and those that don't.

 

Offline vyper

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OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
While I agree with you on a certain level Liberator I feel it my responsibility to point out that its not American against the world - the UK is not part of the "castrated European Union" in the sense of military action.  While I admit internal politics may be a stumbling block, this is our party too. :devil:
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Offline Crazy_Ivan80

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OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Saddam and NBC weapons.

We know he has chemical weapons, most likely bioweapons too. Nuclear: still have to see the proof of that.

However, for all those screaming the'll use them irrigardless of the situation, you may want to remember that Saddam had the chance to gas Israel during the Gulf War. Of course he didn't as he knew that would mean the end of him altoghter.

Never forget that Saddam, above all, craves power. Even despite the rethoric he spouts.
So as long as he has nothing to lose he won't use WMD/NBC on anyone but his own (cruel in any case)

Cornering him so that there's no way out, no way to survive for him might very will trigger Saddam to use everything he has, to cause as much hurt as he can. After all, he'll be dead/out of power soon.

And that, IMHO, is the reason why anyone wanting to oust Saddam should thinkg not once, not twice, not trice, but many times before doing acting.
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Offline TheCelestialOne

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OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Quote
Originally posted by Liberator


Example
Say he has some Nukes and uses them on Israel.  What's Israel going to do?  Nuke him back till the entire country glows.  Then Syria gets involved and invades from the east, and Egypt from the west.  The Isreali army moves and blunts the invasion.  Isreal is good but their not that good, so we move in and help.  Meanwhile, the @#$@# castrated European Union sit there and shouts instead of helping to stabilze an already huge disaster, because they still think they can negotiate their way out.  Remember, Words don't work with everybody.  Often as not they only stave off the inevitable.

~And wait for the nice yellow snow during the nuclear winter~
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Offline vyper

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OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
All the more reason to stop him now.
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Offline TheCelestialOne

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OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
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Originally posted by vyper
All the more reason to stop him now.


...:wtf:...

This happens if YOU guys nuke 'm. Get things straight on your own continent and don't come bothering us before you are absolutle PERFECT yourself.

*looks at CP's artificial governmet*

*smiles*
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Offline vyper

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OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Quote
Originally posted by TheCelestialOne


...:wtf:...

This happens if YOU guys nuke 'm. Get things straight on your own continent and don't come bothering us before you are absolutle PERFECT yourself.

*looks at CP's artificial governmet*

*smiles*


Its an island, not a continent.
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