Poll

do you think we should, you know...

I am an american and I think we should
25 (26%)
I am american and I don't think we should
14 (14.6%)
I am american and don't care what hapens
4 (4.2%)
I am not american and I think we (you) should
11 (11.5%)
I am not american and I don't think we (you) should
32 (33.3%)
I am not american and I don't care what you do
7 (7.3%)
I am american living elsewhere and will do it myself if they don't!
3 (3.1%)

Total Members Voted: 94

Voting closed: March 12, 2003, 05:52:55 pm

Author Topic: Iraq?  (Read 141638 times)

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Offline Rictor

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cp its not very smart to talk to you because you reject the laws of morality a bit too much. in you quest to be objective, you fail to accept that some things are just good and others are bad..killing is bad, not killing is good etc

you just say "whoever is the most powerful is the best, becuase all I care about is power. doesnt matter if you kill aot of people, whoever is the most "effective" is the best"..you see, if people lived by that rule, we'de have a society of pychopaths,

from what I understand you claim that if you have to kill 1000 people to get 1 dollar, good for you, you got the dollar

BTW its all right to talk, but I dont think that you live by this philosophy, or that you could enforce it in real life

_____________________

-As for the US loosing money. They want to bring in US civilian contractors to rebuild Iraq. The contractors get paid, which the US taxes and they get their money back. Oh and the oil, which is the number 1 industry in the world (makes more money than the entire computer/it industry from what I know)..The US would get TONS of money from the oil, even if they just "administer" the oil pumping. The US will make more from this war than it has put in..

oh and BTW, the UN has been taking 25% of ALL Iraqi oil profits since desert storm.

since no one is responding to my argements, I'll just take that as a sign of defeat:) (on you part)

 

Offline Razor

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Personally I really doubt that US is gonna finance the rebuilding of Iraq. How do I know they won't. Simple, they promissed money to YU if we send Milosevic to Haag, we did so and didn't get a cent as far as I remember. The only deal we made with US was between us and Microsoft so that they can have their office in Belgrade and produce Microsoft products on Serbian and that's all.

 

Offline CP5670

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Quote
cp its not very smart to talk to you because you reject the laws of morality a bit too much. in you quest to be objective, you fail to accept that some things are just good and others are bad..killing is bad, not killing is good etc


But how can any truly objective argument proceed along those lines? Since the idea that killing is bad is just as wrong as the idea that killing is good; Hussein probably thinks killing is good, and what is to make us any more right or wrong than him? This is why I commonly give the chair example; saying that sitting on chairs is bad for its own sake (that is, independently of events that may result from it) is just as defendable as your idea. Now killing people might be bad for the killers because other people may fight back, public opinion may shift in a certain way, the gods might punish them or whatever else, but on its own it simply makes no sense.

Quote
you just say "whoever is the most powerful is the best, becuase all I care about is power. doesnt matter if you kill aot of people, whoever is the most "effective" is the best"..you see, if people lived by that rule, we'de have a society of pychopaths,


The nation states do live by that rule though. My point is that you can complain about the way the world works all you want, but that is not going to change it at all. This is almost like a physics rule; you can't just say that gravity "should" be a repellant force, because it simply is not. That is the way things are in the universe. The fact is that whoever who is the most effective in the way I have described earlier is going to win, and moreover, every govenment in the world realizes this, so everyone is acting in this way, and understandably so.

Quote
BTW its all right to talk, but I dont think that you live by this philosophy, or that you could enforce it in real life


I do live by it actually; the reason I don't go on killing sprees every day is that I am not good enough and will be quickly caught, so the costs outweight the benefits. If everyone in the world was a first-rate criminal, I'm sure we would have a lot more crime everywhere. So in order to make my money, I will (most likely) do what I can do, math. :D

Quote
-As for the US loosing money. They want to bring in US civilian contractors to rebuild Iraq. The contractors get paid, which the US taxes and they get their money back. Oh and the oil, which is the number 1 industry in the world (makes more money than the entire computer/it industry from what I know)..The US would get TONS of money from the oil, even if they just "administer" the oil pumping. The US will make more from this war than it has put in..


Individual industries (such as oil) still don't really compare to full-time government spending; the revenues come out of all of the industries combined. The costs of any war are immense compared to their spoils; wars are fought primarily for political reasons, not just for money, and there is really no historical example to the contrary. Not to mention the recessive effects back home, which will take away another several billions and last for many years (and the blame would be solely on Bush for everything; so much for him doing this for reelection purposes :p). And taxes are not collected quickly just like that either; they accumulate over time, and it will take decades to completely fill up government coffers back to the pre-war amount.

Besides, there is still a big question; if they just wanted oil, why did they not go after Saudi Arabia instead? That country has far more oil than Iraq and a tiny fraction of the military power (in fact, Iraq could take over SA without any trouble if it wanted to, which was Hussein's plan back in 1991). The US can easily cook up some excuse for a fight (after all, you anti-war people claim that this is what they have done with Iraq), and everything else will be both easier and more rewarding.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2003, 01:19:27 pm by 296 »

 

Offline Tiara

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Quote
Originally posted by Razor
...we send Milosevic to Haag...


Thats... DEN HAAG

You people always screwin' around with our city names :p :rolleyes:

Ow, and CP, true objectivity does not exist. So why try to attain it? It is a wee bit illogical to persue that which is impossible to reach. And since you would know it is illogical, wouldn't it be "not-so-objective" to try and attain it? :p

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Offline CP5670

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Ow, and CP, true objectivity does not exist. So why try to attain it? It is a wee bit illogical to persue that which is impossible to reach. And since you would know it is illogical, wouldn't it be "not-so-objective" to try and attain it?  


That may or may not be true, although at the moment I am leaning towards the former possibility in practice. But still, I think it can be safely said that certain arguments are more "objective" than others in the practical sense of the world, based on the supporting information they use and so on, even if none are completely objective. Besides, we might as well assume that, since if it the alternative were true and all deductions were of the same level of objectivity, absolute deductions would be pointless and we would have nothing to do and would all get bored. :D

Besides, true objectivity does exist, in the form of math. So let us use the rest of this thread for math problems! ;7

 

Offline aldo_14

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Quote
Originally posted by Razor


Where did you live in 1999? On the moon or something, isolated from society? I know what I have been hearing and reading back then. And one more thing, I don't really hate American people and your country at all. I just hate your government because of it's dictatorship.


Milosevic?

Ah, the sweet smell of hipocracy......

 

Offline Razor

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Quote
Originally posted by aldo_14


Milosevic?

Ah, the sweet smell of hipocracy......


:wtf:

 

Offline 01010

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Quote
Originally posted by Razor


:wtf:


If dysfunction is a function, then I must be some kind of GENIUS-S-S-S-S-S-S-S.
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Offline Pez

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Quote
Originally posted by Shrike
Uhhh....... no, there isn't.  If he splices together three entirely seperate conversations into one in order to create an entirely fictitious conversation and give the impression that the conversation he created he was real, I'd say he was putting words into people's mouth.

The splicing is how he did it, putting words in people's mouths is what he did.


Ok, it seems like we just have different words/name for it (and some different opinions :)). We'll better end the Michael Moore debate here and focus on the real deal. The war in Iraq.

 

Offline Rictor

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yes milosevic

you see , I ( a yugoslav, who lived in yugoslaia for 9 years)consider Milosevic a dictartor and a bastard, however the 1999 bombing of Yugoslvia was a)unjust b)illegal c)pointless

What you need to realize is that an attack on a whole country is NOT the way to get rid of a single person. In all the bombing (in both Yugo and Iraq) the president is the last person who will get injured, the people are the ones who suffer most.

1- Without wanting to sound biased, Kosovo was Serbian land. The Albanian population of Kosovo wanted to seperate and join Albania. This is like Texas wanting to break from the US and join Mexico. The fact is that (without wanting to sound prejucided) the Albanian were doing nothing and wanted everything. I have a first hand report from people who have lived in Kosovo for about 35 years, and for the most part the Albanian population had not been pulling its weight for about 40 years. Now this may sound like "he is decriminating against ALL Albanians" but I'm not going to disregard fact just to be "politically correct". No, I do not think all Albanians were like this, but a significant portion. For 50 years the Albanian population in Kosovo has been getting money and alot of other privileges from the government (better treatment thatn other) and were not giving back anything in return The n they wanted to seperate..this sounds like unthankfullness to me.

2- The UN cried genocide, even though there was no such thing happening. They just like to throw around that word becuase it sounds cool (it really is that simple/stupid), like weapons of mass distruction. The Albanians were killing the Serbs (military and civilian) and the Serbs were killing the Albanians(military and civilian). Thats what you would call a "war". Yes, civilians were being driven out, on both sides, but both sides were equally guilty of doing it. CNN never mentioned the hundreds of thousands of Serbs that were displaced and fled their homes. (the bombing actually cause alot more people to flee (on both sides) then the Serb-Albanian conflict)

3- The bombing only entrenched Milosevic's postion in politics. When a country is under attack, the entire population tends to unite, which includes the President, regardless of his past crimes. The serbian deemed the US a bigger threat, and united as a country, inlcuding Milosevic, regardless of his past crimes. In a bombing attack, the President is the LAST person who will die. He lives in a bunker with food an water and electricity, while the population suffers. Thats like knocking over an anthill to kill the queen. The bombing attack did the exact opposite of what the US hoped, and it didnt even destroy Serbian military (of this is I am very proud, our military showed an amazing amount of creativity and resourcefullness in fooling the US).

4- Civlian targets WERE hit on purpouse. I dont know the final number but about 4000 civilians died in the bombing. THe US's excuse was "our maps are out of date, so that marketplace is where we thought a military bunker was". This is the lamest excuse eve, both since the US has satellite guided missles, which dont rely on maps, and since the "smart bombs" are supposed to be the most advanced piece of military hardware on earth.



I dont know about you, but somehow I dont see how 5 year of children running to a fall out shelter at 3am with AA fire and bombs exploding around them is helping anyone, though I may just be obtuse.

Aldo, I dont expect you to believe this until it turns around and bites you in the ass..you'll realize sooner or later, perhaps when London (uhm, I just assume all British people live in London hehe) is being bombed, you'll get it.

 

Offline 01010

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Quote
Originally posted by Rictor
perhaps when London (uhm, I just assume all British people live in London hehe) is being bombed, you'll get it.


I can see the weapons factory that was 2nd on the Russians "must nuke first" list.

Right in the middle of the ****ing countryside too.
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Offline Mr. Vega

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Quote
Originally posted by CP5670


That may or may not be true, although at the moment I am leaning towards the former possibility in practice. But still, I think it can be safely said that certain arguments are more "objective" than others in the practical sense of the world, based on the supporting information they use and so on, even if none are completely objective. Besides, we might as well assume that, since if it the alternative were true and all deductions were of the same level of objectivity, absolute deductions would be pointless and we would have nothing to do and would all get bored. :D

Besides, true objectivity does exist, in the form of math. So let us use the rest of this thread for math problems! ;7


Well then here is your problem CP, you can't use math on people(unless you claim to have devloped psychohistory:doubt: ). People don't often follow logic like you and if you expect to get results from completely objective arguements then you are a fool.
Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assaults of thoughts on the unthinking.
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Offline Goober5000

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Quote
Originally posted by Rictor
4- Civlian targets WERE hit on purpouse. I dont know the final number but about 4000 civilians died in the bombing. THe US's excuse was "our maps are out of date, so that marketplace is where we thought a military bunker was". This is the lamest excuse eve, both since the US has satellite guided missles, which dont rely on maps, and since the "smart bombs" are supposed to be the most advanced piece of military hardware on earth.


:wtf: Why would the U.S. want to bomb civilians on purpose?  Aside from being immoral, it accomplishes nothing militarily.

The military grew rusty under Clinton, and we've spent the last couple of years getting back in good condition.  As you can see from the midair crashes and equipment failures, we're not completely finished yet.

  

Offline Sandwich

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*looks at poll results*

w007!!! I'm The minority!!!! :D

*looks at postcount*

...a vocal minority, at that! ;7 :lol:
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"The very essence of tolerance rests on the fact that we have to be intolerant of intolerance. Stretching right back to Kant, through the Frankfurt School and up to today, liberalism means that we can do anything we like as long as we don't hurt others. This means that if we are tolerant of others' intolerance - especially when that intolerance is a call for genocide - then all we are doing is allowing that intolerance to flourish, and allowing the violence that will spring from that intolerance to continue unabated." - Bren Carlill

 

Offline Knight Templar

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I want a recount :p

*runs to watch CNN's latest*
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Offline Stealth

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i'll tell you what i think's highly amusing (and highly stupid) is those British that blew up one of their own tanks when they thought it was an enemy's.  i mean, with all the high-tech equipment and stuff, you'd think they'd be able to determine which tank's an enemy's and which isn't.

another thing.  that black woman a few days ago that was driving a tank full of soldiers or whatever, and she took a wrong turn, and the next thing she knows they're facing some Iraqi troops.  all of them were taken hostage, and now they're in enemy custody.

not to be racist or anything, the fact she's black has nothing to do with it (!?) but with those GPS things, and all the fancy navigation equipment they have, you'd think they wouldn't take a "wrong turn" and end up faced by the enemy, that's just plain stupid.

there, i've said my bit, i'll let you know if America, Britan, Iraq, Italy, Nigeria, or any other country does something stupid during this war :D

 

Offline Goober5000

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Quote
Originally posted by Sandwich
*looks at poll results*

w007!!! I'm The minority!!!! :D

*looks at postcount*

...a vocal minority, at that! ;7 :lol:


:lol: You voted the last option? :lol:

Eh, wait a minnit.  You're an American, as in citizen?  How'd you get in the IDF then?

 

Offline Knight Templar

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Because he lives in Israel and has a dual citizenship?

Besides, isn't Israel Milatary service mandatory?
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Offline Sandwich

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Quote
Originally posted by Knight Templar
Because he lives in Israel and has a dual citizenship?

Besides, isn't Israel Milatary service mandatory?


"...And KT's two for two so far..." :D
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"...The quintessential quality of our age is that of dreams coming true. Just think of it. For centuries we have dreamt of flying; recently we made that come true: we have always hankered for speed; now we have speeds greater than we can stand: we wanted to speak to far parts of the Earth; we can: we wanted to explore the sea bottom; we have: and so  on, and so on: and, too, we wanted the power to smash our enemies utterly; we have it. If we had truly wanted peace, we should have had that as well. But true peace has never been one of the genuine dreams - we have got little further than preaching against war in order to appease our consciences. The truly wishful dreams, the many-minded dreams are now irresistible - they become facts." - 'The Outward Urge' by John Wyndham

"The very essence of tolerance rests on the fact that we have to be intolerant of intolerance. Stretching right back to Kant, through the Frankfurt School and up to today, liberalism means that we can do anything we like as long as we don't hurt others. This means that if we are tolerant of others' intolerance - especially when that intolerance is a call for genocide - then all we are doing is allowing that intolerance to flourish, and allowing the violence that will spring from that intolerance to continue unabated." - Bren Carlill

 

Offline Stealth

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yeah,

doesn't Israel have the most powerful airforce in the world?  Don't they have like 380 F-16s or something like that?  i know it's a big number of fighters