[Bobboau]

many jews don't consider Jesus the son of God, hell thee were some early CHRISTIAN sects that said he wasn't the son of god. that _one_ item isn't even signifigant, let alone conclucive.
how's this, Islam worships the god of Abraham, jewdaeism worships the God of Abraham, and Chrstianity worships the God of Abraham. all the same god.Islamic fundies sound just as insaine, actualy somewhat less insaine, than many Christian fundies.

"Jenin and Warsaw? Pfft - hardly! Let's see, did Warsaw spawn armed terrorists, hell-bent on blowing the heads off every German mother and child they could see?"
it probly would have if the Germans didn't use such a heavy fist against them.

[ionia23]

many jews don't consider Jesus the son of God

.....uhh, isn't that what kind of, well, ya know, makes one a Jew?

Unless there's some new sect I've never heard of...

[Reez]

Originally posted by Sandwich


It would indeed be interesting to find out exactly what did and didn't happen in Jenin and similar cases. Gross overestimations have been proven to have occurred, so I take everything - especially coming from sites such as the two above - with a hefty grain of salt.

That said, I'm not denying that the above could have happend. But I trust you'll understand why I'm not going to debate the points until I can read the other side of each incident.

Of course. But it's impossible to deny that these incidents are occurring. These are only two example I found within 30 seconds of searching, the record were quite voluminous. These were the top two on google. Of course, the third one was about an Israeli 7 year old who was killed by Palestine militants, but I've already stated that both sides are in the wrong here, so that's a moot point. But regarding these incidents: now it could be like Abu-Ghraib, where about 20 or 30 get their sh*t split and everyone starts b*tching. Or it could be something that is happening en masse. I'm cynical, i take everything with a grain of salt. But not all of this can be made up, some of these statements have to be true. And even if they're not, being locked in your house for long periods of time by people you already hate is only gonna piss you off majorly.

[Ace]

Originally posted by Sandwich
Such as the multiple times the Koran states that Allah has no son - a point which directly contradicts the fundamental tennet of Christianity that Jesus is the Son of God.

A tenent of fundamentalist Christianity, not a fundamental tenet of Christianity.

Whether Christ is a prophet, divine, or even fictional doesn't change the nature of the teachings in the new testament of tolerance, equality, and love. Teachings that have been thrown out the window because they aren't in line with Calvinism.

Of course then again to fundamentalists I'm just a dirty, secular, subversive liberal who has no ****ing clue about theology.

[Ghostavo]

I thought Jesus was considered part of the Trinity and therefore him being god himself. If he was really the "Son of God" in such crude terms Christianity wouldn't be a form of monotheism.

[an0n]

Catholics worship the Holy Trinity because they really worship Jesus, but since Jesus isn't God and worshipping him would constitute blasphemy, they decided to make him and God the same people.

[mikhael]

Originally posted by an0n
Catholics worship the Holy Trinity because they really worship Jesus, but since Jesus isn't God and worshipping him would constitute blasphemy, they decided to make him and God the same people.

Moron. If you're going to talk ignorantly about a religion, at least talk ignorantly AND accurately. Catholics are accused of worshipping Mary instead of Jesus.

[Rictor]

wait, I'm lost. What exactly does religion have to do with tearing up Rafah or with the Israel/Palestine issue? I was under the imperssion that any excuse involving religion ought to be thrown out as bull**** immedietdly.

you can have your religion and do as you please, but you had better damn well keep it seperate from political and/or military actions.

maybe I'm just overly idealistic.

[Corsair]

Religion in the Israel-Palestine conflict is at the same time everything and nothing.

It is nothing because this is, after all, a territorial conflict. Both peoples claim that the land is theirs and are fighting over it. Secular, right?

It is religious, however, because the two sides are divided by religion. They are fighting over holy land and religious cities. Propaganda is used to target the other religion, not the other people. Religion is the cultural identity. Did I mention that the claims to the land are based on religious texts?

[Ghostavo]

Israel-Palestine has everything to do with religion as the Ireland-UK had... actually, they are both very similar cases. Maybe a nuke wouldn't be so bad... (just joking Sand )

[Rictor]

Some more from Rafah Kid:

Amira Hass wrote in Haaretz the other day an article titled "Two Magic Phrases" about 'armed men' and 'smuggling tunnels' the two magical phrases used to justify every operation in Rafah. Talking of the tunnels Hass wrote:


"Merchants invented the system. The tunnels are not only for weapons and drugs, but for medicine, basic food commodities and cigarettes, at prices much more suitable for poverty-stricken Rafah. They are a way to break an economic siege. The weapons in the hands of the armed men of Rafah prove that the tunnels are not being used to smuggle sophisticated weapons.

Nonetheless, the tunnels have turned into a scarecrow that justifies every strike at civilian lives and civilian property. Or is the IDF angered by the fact that Palestinian brains and needs have led to inventions that enable them to build the tunnels despite all the risks and the sophisticated Israeli equipment for uncovering them?"

Some Jewish friends of mine compare areas of Palestine to the ghettoes of Warsaw, something of which I know little, so I followed some links I was emailed recently:


The Warsaw Ghetto Uprising -- Secular Symbol of Jewish Success
[...]"ZZW (Zidowski Zwiazek Woskowy) led by Pawel Frenkel, was founded by the end of 1939. Its commanders all had military training and many had experience as officers in the Polish Army. It maintained contact with the Polish underground through the army connections, and received regular arms and assistance. ZZW also had dug two tunnels that provided a channel for communication and arms smuggling into the Ghetto.

Orgainsed Resistance of the Z.O.B
"January 18-21, 1943. The Germans renew deportations from the Warsaw ghetto. This time however, they encounter resistance from the ZOB (Jewish Fighting Organization; Zydowska Organizacja Bojowa). The early morning roundups take the ZOB organization by surprise, and individuals take to the streets to resist the Germans. Other Jews in the ghetto retreat into prepared hiding places. The Germans, expecting the expulsions to run smoothly, are surprised by the resistance. In act of retaliation they massacre 1,000 Jews in the main square on January 21, but suspend further deportations. The Germans were able to deport or kill 5,000-6,500 Jews. Encouraged by the results of resistance actions, the Jews in the ghetto plan and prepare a full-scale revolt. The fighting organization is unified, strategies are planned, underground bunkers and tunnels are built, and roof-top passages are constructed. The Jews of the Warsaw ghetto prepare to fight to the end."

The Smuggling of Food into the Warsaw Ghetto
"The German authorities did everything to seal off the ghetto hermetically and not allow in a single gram of food. A wall was put up around the ghetto on all sides that did not leave a single millimeter of open space [...]

They fixed barbed wire and broken glass to the top of the wall. When that failed to help, the Judenrat was ordered to make the wall higher, at the expense of the Jews, of course [...]

Several kinds of guards were appointed for the walls and the passages through them; the categories [of guards] were constantly being changed and their numbers increased [...] The victims of the smuggling were mainly Jews [...] Several times smugglers were shot at the central lock-up on Gesiowka* Street. Once there was a veritable slaughter (100 persons were shot near Warsaw). Among the Jewish victims of the smuggling there were tens of Jewish children between 5 and 6 years old, whom the German killers shot in great numbers near the passages and at the walls.

And despite that, without paying attention to the victims, the smuggling never stopped for a moment. When the street was still slippery with the blood that had been spilled, other [smugglers] already set out, as soon as the "candles" had signaled that the way was clear, to carry on with the work [...] The smuggling took place – a) through the walls, b) through the gates, c) through underground tunnels, d) through sewers, and e) through houses on the borders"

[an0n]

Originally posted by mikhael
Moron. If you're going to talk ignorantly about a religion, at least talk ignorantly AND accurately. Catholics are accused of worshipping Mary instead of Jesus.

I wasn't 'accusing' them of anything. They do worship Jesus. And if Jesus were to be considered a seperate entity from God, they'd be in violation of the "Thou shalt not worship...." commandment.

So they magiced up all this bull**** about God and Jesus and Karma being the same thing so they could pray to their little Jewish magician without being smote.

[mikhael]

I think you'll find that the whole trinity thing is kind of independent of the Catholic Church. Sure, Catholics are the oldest surviving sect that practice the doctrine of the Trinity, but it predates the formation of the Church.

[Reez]

Regardless, religion is an outdated system of law enforcement. I think it was originally meant to make sure that people wouldn't just do whatever the hell they want at the cost of other people.

"Billy, if you hit little Joey, in the head again with that club of yours, you're going to end up in a place of fire and smoke and screaming and torture and pain. Do you want that?"

We don't need religion anymore. Now we have people with shiny badges and guns.

[Sandwich]

Originally posted by Bobboau
how's this, Islam worships the god of Abraham, jewdaeism worships the God of Abraham, and Chrstianity worships the God of Abraham. all the same god.Islamic fundies sound just as insaine, actualy somewhat less insaine, than many Christian fundies.

Jews and Christians worship the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The Muslims do not, esp. since the Arab lineage is traced back to Abraham and his son, Ishmael, who was a rival of Isaac.

Originally posted by Ace
A tenent of fundamentalist Christianity, not a fundamental tenet of Christianity.

Whether Christ is a prophet, divine, or even fictional doesn't change the nature of the teachings in the new testament of tolerance, equality, and love. Teachings that have been thrown out the window because they aren't in line with Calvinism.

Of course then again to fundamentalists I'm just a dirty, secular, subversive liberal who has no ****ing clue about theology.

Wrong, Ace. The Bible is (or at least, should be... ) the bottom-line for Christians, and the New Testament states that Jesus is the Son of God many times. Such as when Jesus was getting baptized by John, the dove landed on him, and the voice from heaven declared "This is my Son, in whome I am well pleased."

Jesus being the Son of God is not a questionable point for Christians.

[Bobboau]

yes it is, becase the Bible is not the bottom line for Christans, it's the bottom line for Catholics, as I said, there have been Christian sects, from before the councel of Nicea, before the Bible was cannonised, that did not think that Jesus was the son of God. these sects were, for the most part, hunted down and killed as heratics shortly after the Church gained signifigant power.

also you'r saying "nu-uh" does not refute my claim, in fact you reinforced it, Arabs are desended from Abraham, they worship the same god as him, unless you can point out in the Koran some were were Ishmael (or his desendents) refutes the god of his father in favor of a diferent one it's the same god.

[Reez]

Originally posted by Sandwich

Wrong, Ace. The Bible is (or at least, should be... ) the bottom-line for Christians, and the New Testament states that Jesus is the Son of God many times. Such as when Jesus was getting baptized by John, the dove landed on him, and the voice from heaven declared "This is my Son, in whome I am well pleased."

Jesus being the Son of God is not a questionable point for Christians.

You have to remember that the Bible, the Q'uran, and the Semetic holy book (slipping my mind right now and I don't feel like checking it up), are all metaphors. Noah did not get every tick and fly that ever existed and get them to bang on a boat.  Moses did not split a sea while a Pharoah tried to shove a spear in his arse (cuz ass is probably sensored). Christ probably couldn't walk on water. And I doubt that Prophet Mohammed, peace be upon him (im not even very religous, I do that out of habit now), travelled to heaven on the back of a winged horse before he died, then came back to Earth. All of it is metaphors. It's a bunch of messages nicely screwed up. Look past the text, and read in between the lines. Are the people of the world not referred to as God's children? So we're all the sons and daughters of God then. Christ was not special because of his heritage but because of what he did. If we're all supposed to be born equal, and God made Jesus special, then ALL three books are hypocritical and we need to look at them closely.

[karajorma]

Originally posted by Sandwich
Such as the multiple times the Koran states that Allah has no son - a point which directly contradicts the fundamental tennet of Christianity that Jesus is the Son of God.

How? By saying that they have similar languages? Or by saying that Islam considers Jesus a great prophet?? Sorry, not sufficient.

Okay. Let me put it this way. The Old Testement says that you must remember the passover. It's quite strict on the fact. IIRC the New Testement never revoked that. Yet christians don't keep the passover.

It's the same with eating pork and a whole load of other things that jews do and christians don't. Yet you claim that Jews and Christians do worship the same god.

Secondly just because the muslims don't believe that Jesus is the son of god doesn't mean that they don't worship the same god.

As I've explained before they differ on one major point. One of them has simply gotten it wrong (actually both religions are wrong from an atheists standpoint). Just because they differ on one major point doesn't mean that everything else they believe in common is wrong.

As an example lets take cosmology. Some scientists believe the universe will simply keep expanding forever. Some believe it will end in a big crunch. Your arguement would have it that they don't believe in the same big bang because the variables have to be different for the two outcomes.  

Your entire arguement is a logical fallacy and no other major religious leader I've heard of has ever said such a thing. In fact I remember hearing both the pope and the archbishop of Canterbury   say that they do worship the same god as the muslims.

[vyper]

How's this for an answer to it all: Become an atheist like me and the worst of your ethical troubles will be how to treat your ex-girlfriend when she starts talking to you again.  It's a lot easier than blowing the living **** out of each oher.

[karajorma]

I hope that wasn't addressed at me cause you're preaching to the choir there