[Corsair]

People aren't going to want to fight for their whole lives, and leave the violence to their children and their children's children. Parents want BETTER lives for their kids, not the same ****. People WILL want peace in the end. Even the radicals.

[Rictor]

well, not the radicals. But normal people, yes. The problem is, normal people are not in charge. Put Johhny Citizen in charge of Israel, and watch the peace roll in. Anyone with a shred of sense can see that Sharon is not intersted in peace. Now, before someone brings up the other side, Palestinian militants, I really don't know about them. They're not in a position of power, it could very well be that they're not intersted in peace either. But until someone proves otherwise, I will continue to believe that if Israel offered up pre 1967 borders in exchange for peace and a seperate Palestinian state, the Palestinians would accept.

[Corsair]

If there's peace, that's good enough for me. I know a lot of people over there on both sides and believe me, I pray for them.

[Gank]

Originally posted by Corsair
People WILL want peace in the end. Even the radicals.

What a naive way of looking at things. Do you honestly believe that at some point all the extremists on both sides are going to put down their weapons and run around holding each others hands?

[ionia23]

Originally posted by Gank
What a naive way of looking at things. Do you honestly believe that at some point all the extremists on both sides are going to put down their weapons and run around holding each others hands?

[Reez]

Originally posted by Rictor
reez: but its totally true. A child could see that

I was talking about average joe. Or average ali bin yabbah, whatever the circumstances. Obviously, the people in charge are not gonna care, cuz they don't face any threat. They want the land back, and they'll send people for them to fight to the death for it. But normal ali bin yabbah, just wants his shack, his 4 wives, and his 18 children, and he's happy.

Surprising how that works. I wouldn't want 4 wives. One woman yelling at you "YOU DON'T TREAT ME GOOD ENOUGH" is more than my fill, thanks.

[Corsair]

Originally posted by Gank
What a naive way of looking at things. Do you honestly believe that at some point all the extremists on both sides are going to put down their weapons and run around holding each others hands?

I don't mean all. I'm sorry if I gave you that impression. But hey, here in the U.S. we have crazies too. You'll always have a few oddballs with guns.
And they don't have to go around holding hands. They don't have to be friends, just respect each other a little.

[Corsair]

Oh, and I just heard that the IDF has pulled out of Rafah.

[Rictor]

That was a week ago man :D

But they made sure to point out that it was not due to international pressure, they were just regrouping and were planning to go back in in full force.

I guess their manliness is of greater concern than the safety of thousands of innocent.

[ionia23]

Originally posted by Rictor
That was a week ago man :D

But they made sure to point out that it was not due to international pressure, they were just regrouping and were planning to go back in in full force.

I guess their manliness is of greater concern than the safety of thousands of innocent.

You're right.  We should release Hussein and never set foot in the middle east again.  Would that make everyone happy?

With appropriate respects, you do an awful lot of bellyaching but never offer any solutions.  real or insane.

I don't care if your idea is logical, practical, realistic or not.  What's the solution according to you?

[Rictor]

Ideas for what? Israel/Palestine or for Iraq?

The former is what I think you were reffering to, so here it is:

-Palestinians HAVE TO, have to have to get their own nation.

-Israel withdraws to pre-1967 borders, fully. No settlers. Regardless of who started it, invading and occupying foreign soil is a no-no.

-The apartheid wall is demolished, at Israel's expense. They built it, they should tear it down.

-the Palestinians recognize that Israel wants to be an ethnically pure nation, despite the disturbing historical allusions.

-Jerusalem becomes the joint capital, with East Jerusalem belonging to the Palestinians and West Jerusalmen belonging to the Israelis.

-Israel pays a reasonable, though hefty sum of money as reparations for 40 years of occupation. This, along with international aid, goes to rebuild the Palestinian infrastructure and get the economy running again. Reasonable yearly payments continue for a certain amount of time into the future.

-For a set period of time, maybe 6 months, all travel between the two nations is forbidden, unless you are required to work there, in which case you are issued a special permit. Several checkpoints are set up, and both sides are free to inspect incoming travelers for security purposes. However, there should be enough checkpoints to prevent unreasonalbe delays. Any attacks within the period of time will NOT be avenged.

-after this time, to preserve the vaunted racial (or religious) purity, Palestinians will not be allowed to settle in Israeli territory, though they will be allowed to visit at will. and vice versa.

-a certain amount of Palestinians will be allowed to return to Israel, though not enough to outnumber the Jews. Maybe 200-500 thousand. Given that Israel has a population of around 3 million, this shouldn't be more than 10 percent of the population. As Israel's own population grows, the number of Palestinians allowed to settle will increase.

-following the 6 month "cooldown period" any offensive actions taken by one side against the other (bombings, raids etc) will carry with them a significant fine. These fines will be strictly enforced.Though I doubt suicide bombing would continue, and obviously IDF raids and assasinations would not.

-an admission by the Israeli government and IDF of crimes commited in the occupied territories during the occupation and also an admission of crimes regarding the 1948 ethnic cleansing of Palestinians. What most people want is just to hear the guilty party finally admit it. In exchange for this, the Palestinians take on the admission of guilt for crimes perpetrated by suicide bombers.

____________

thats about it. realistic? probably not. just? yup.

[Corsair]

Since when did justice have anything to do with anything?


And Rictor: That's the nice thing about walls. They go up, they can come down just as easily. If not more easily. It really shouldn't bug people so much.
Did I mention that in most places it's just a fence, not a wall?

[Reez]

you could blow the wall up with cheap explosives. cheaper than using manpower. Shrapnel would be difficult problem though.

[ionia23]

Originally posted by Rictor
Ideas for what? Israel/Palestine or for Iraq?.

Okay, at last I get your position with total clarity.

Nice ideas.  What's in it for Israel?

And you better be open-minded about that.  I work with a man who served in the Israeli army who would have some very choice words about your extremely biased position.

But seriously, what does Israel get out of this?

[karajorma]

Peace?

[Crazy_Ivan80]

Originally posted by Gank

I'll quote Ben Gurion again
 

quote all you want, personally I think you hate the people of israel.

[karajorma]

Originally posted by Crazy_Ivan80
quote all you want, personally I think you hate the people of israel.

And that's the defense Israelis use whenever they're caught out. It's absolute nonsense almost every time of course.

[Corsair]

Originally posted by karajorma
And that's the defense Israelis use whenever they're caught out. It's absolute nonsense almost every time of course.

It's not always nonsense. Just half the time.

[karajorma]

It's been rubbish every time I've seen it on HLP.

[Corsair]

And HLP is representative of the entire world?