[NGTM-1R]

Probably not; Capella's not big enough for a collapsar. It has to go supernova first, then collapse into a singularity.

Referencing the Wiki, I do not see anything that contradicts my statement, but can cite multiple sources for it...

EDIT: And I quote the Wiki:

The kinetic energy release from the burning causes the star to explode violently

[Ghostavo]

Then I'm probably confusing something... anyway, it's all a bit weird/confusing, seeing light is not instantaneous so trying to think what the pics mean/have...

[WeatherOp]

May I ask, Does it matter?

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by Goober5000
1) We're saying that the nebula could be either the Crab Nebula or the Lupus Nebula.
2) Who says the GTVA ever tried to get a bearing?  They never told us what the binary system was.  And if they tried to get a bearing in the nebula, they'd have to first figure out how to see through it.
3) They had travelled farther than any other Terrans, yes, but it never says they left the galaxy.

Not to mention the 2 other caveats; 'furthest in human history' doesn't (just) imply distance from earth (or soforth), it implies distance in subspace.  For all we know - IIRC it's likely this is the case - systems in close proximity can only be accessible via long jumps.  This is a fickle point, however - it's a matter of interpretation.

2nd, it's not clear how the GTVA tracks position - if it's by the position of the stars which can be seen, clearly they are going to have problems in a giant nebula.   If the GTVA didn't know where they were, then it would somewhat support the idea the distance travelled was the jump length.

Originally posted by Goober5000
*shrugs* It's a conjecture.  I'm pretty sure Volition meant for this supernova to have occurred during the time of the ancients... it fits in very well with the rest of the story arc.  They just goofed with the second Knossos.

I doubt it; it's a pretty blatant mistake to make - I'd be surprised if they could put all the nuances of, for example, Bosches monologues and then screw up that particular detail.

I think there may be an implication the Ancients travelled through that supernova remnant - and that was where they overstepped their bounds, by travelling through nodes which may have previously been accessible only to the Shivans.

Maybe.

Originally posted by ngtm1r

I find it entirely possible the Knossos could have survived a supernova. The general wisdom regarding the location of jump nodes (with some exceptions) places them towards the edge of a system, and the Knossos proved itself incredibly resiliant. A meson bomb, point-blank, and a supernova shockwave at nine or ten Astronomical Units are probably not all that different in terms of damage.
 

I would doubt that; there's firstly no evidence that all nodes are distant from a star, just look at Sols one in FS1 end.  The other thing is that a supernova is simply too powerful, even at a possibly increased distance...  you could argue that a meson bomb isn't even that powerful anyways; it took a ship full of them to collapse a node, which - arguably - makes them far less powerful than the (detonation of the) Lucifers reactors.  By that some (somewhat iffy) chain of logic, the Lucifers destruction in Sol would surely have had an effect similar to a small supernova.

[karajorma]

Originally posted by aldo_14
Not to mention the 2 other caveats; 'furthest in human history' doesn't (just) imply distance from earth (or soforth), it implies distance in subspace.  For all we know - IIRC it's likely this is the case - systems in close proximity can only be accessible via long jumps.  This is a fickle point, however - it's a matter of interpretation.

I think it's simpler than that actually. IIRC of the real FS2 stars Polaris is the furthest away (at 431 LY). The closest nebula of any kind is the Helix nebula at 450LY.

Seems pretty obvious that they must have travelled further when you look at those numbers.

Of course I may have missed a star that is further away but the Helix nebula is only a planetary nebula. Analysis of the gases present would very quickly tell you exactly what type of nebula you're dealing with so the minimum distance travelled could easily be set as being much higher.

[dan87uk]

perhaps that is what the shivans had designed the lucifer to do, not only planetary assault and seemingly amazing shielding. but that even as the final fall back plan, when it was destroyed it would take as much out with it as possible, that may have been the shivans little boobytrap....obviously they probably would have thought the lucifer would be destroyed by a planet since its meant for planatery assault  and that would mean they made the explosion powerful enough to damage the surface or somthing.....again my wild speculation....i have only been awake about 10 minutes so im just gonna throw lotsa random crap at this

[aldo_14]

It's possible - the Shivans are devious enough to do that sort of thing - but I'm not sure how well it would tally with the described behaviour of the Shivan fleet after the Lucifers destruction; they became disorganised and fragmented, not the result you'd expect if they had anticipated the loss of the Lucifer (because you'd anticipate that, if they believed there was any possibility the ship could be destroyed, then they'd have a backup plan...).

It's an interesting possibility, however.  As the Lucifer was only vulnerable in subspace, perhaps they designed it to seal off any enemy powerful enough to destroy it?

[dan87uk]

yes but thats the point, if the lucifer was destroyed then the shivan fleet lost cohesion etc, but that doesnt mean they wouldnt put a booby trap on the lucifer for when it was destroyed, in theory the lucifer would be one of if not the last vessel destroyed in the fleet anyway, so i dont think they would consider anything to do with the rest of the fleet because 'theoretically' most of if not all of it has been destroyed enabling forces to attack it

[aldo_14]

To me, booby trapping the Lucifer would imply they had prepared for defeat... which strikes me as being somewhat 'un-Shivan'.

[dan87uk]

as i said, they may not have expected defeat, but had considered thep ossibility

[DIO]

Shivan fleet that attacked Cappella...
How big was it?
Was it more then half of the whole Shivan armada?
Or was it merely a small expeditionary force?
Is Sathanas even a warship?
Could it be a some sort of science ship?
And other Shivan ship is just like a PT boat?

[dan87uk]

this has already been discussed,.....frankly we'l never know but it is doubtful, the Sathanas is without a doubt a warship

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by dan87uk
this has already been discussed,.....frankly we'l never know but it is doubtful, the Sathanas is without a doubt a warship

Actually, there is a great deal of doubt over what the Sath is.... particularly in light of what that fleet did at Capella - they are the one type of vessel that 'escapes', and they don't really go out of there way to engage the GTVA, but gather round the star.  Plus the weapon placement leaves huge vulnerability on the rear and sides, too.

One theory is that the Saths are colony ships, transporting the Shivan race to some new / home universe - certainly you could interpret it as that from the FS2 ending;
-Saths close in around sun, emitting subspace vibrations/signal.  
-They then close their main arms together, and appear to be directing power into them (increasing hum, pulsing glow, electrcal charges) - the arms pull 'apart', creating what appears to be a green knossos like 'rift' in front of them
-A shockwave eminates from this rift; the star itself takes on a green hue and glow similar to the rift (or whatever), although the rifts themselves stay open and visible
- Some - not all - Sathani jump into what looks like regular subspace; this vortex appears in the same position as the rift did between their arms.  Others, apparently having drained their power (no lights, no engines), do not.

IMO they're definately not being used as warships; whilst you could view the destruction of Capella as a military action, you could also say that the Sathani fleet took far greater losses there than it would of had it wished to conquer the GTVA.  In the latter case, it implies the Sathani had some other purpose.

[dan87uk]

good point

[Akalabeth Angel]

The supernova is a largest known release of energy in the universe.
The power it releases it uninmaginable (and my physics profesor, who works at CERN said it cannot even be calculated), and it effect the whole region of space.

      As someone else promptly pointed out, the biggest release of energy is not a Super nova, but rather an UltraNova. An event which causes those Gamma Ray bursts, which travel from distant galaxies, and if one were to blow up nearby it would vaporise our planet pretty quickly (well, wouldn't vaporise neccesarily. But the world would be hit by an all-encompassing nuclear bomb). Or something like that . . . . watch Nova to find out more.


      Second of all, what's with this thread? As a first time reader, I'm getting posts out of order all over the place. I'm getting quotes before the original posts, something is major screwy.

       Third, if the supernova which caused the nebula in FS2 happened during the time of the ancients, why wouldn't they talk about it in thier monologues? They seem to be only concerned with the Lucifer to me. Though it is a fairly interesting idea.

EDIT - another thing is, don't subspace nodes need a source of gravity or something? (like a star) If that's the case, maybe it explains the existance of the Knossos. Maybe the only way for the ancients to reach the nebula or leave it was by use of the Knossos.
While using the Knossos as the ancient's only means of travel is a cool idea, it doesn't explain why there aren't any in Altair or other such systems.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by Akalabeth Angel

      Second of all, what's with this thread? As a first time reader, I'm getting posts out of order all over the place. I'm getting quotes before the original posts, something is major screwy.

you didn't notice before?  A few days back the board went all screwy and started messing up the posting dates, so replies went out of order.

 

Originally posted by Akalabeth Angel
     Third, if the supernova which caused the nebula in FS2 happened during the time of the ancients, why wouldn't they talk about it in thier monologues? They seem to be only concerned with the Lucifer to me. Though it is a fairly interesting idea.

Well, they probably weren't there at the time, anyways.  I doubt it was part of their war with the Shivans, because why would they build knossos' during that war?

Originally posted by Akalabeth Angel
EDIT - another thing is, don't subspace nodes need a source of gravity or something? (like a star) If that's the case, maybe it explains the existance of the Knossos. Maybe the only way for the ancients to reach the nebula or leave it was by use of the Knossos.
While using the Knossos as the ancient's only means of travel is a cool idea, it doesn't explain why there aren't any in Altair or other such systems.

3rd knossos was in a system with a star though, I think.

EDIT; so it's not exclusively limited to star-less regions.  But, yeah, if you sort of follow where the knossos' were built, you travel from GD to the neb to the Lions Den system.

I wonder if the knossos network - however far it extends - was what led to the Shivans finding the ancients.... maybe they tried to shut the door behind them by closing down the knossos, but failed to realise the node was stable, or that the Shivans could follow them regardless.  If the Lions Den system was Shivan territory, then perhaps the comms sats were border defenses, monitoring transmissions and acitivity in the Knossial network?

[NGTM-1R]

I think I have an explanation for the Capella supernova's two-stage nature, since a normal supernova would be single-stage.

The first stage was the induced supernova, but a very weak induced supernova, nowhere near the size or power of a real one, otherwise most of the rest of the GTVA would end up getting fried in a few hundred years too. (And the Demios and Moloch in End Part 1 would have been blasted to their component atoms.) The Capella star just isn't big enough for a real supernova (it looks like a fairly normal sunlike star, which would mean it was nowhere near large enough for a supernova.) and only has the mass for a very tiny, very pale imitation.

The second stage, the one that blasted everything to Kingdom Come, is some kind of subspace backlash resulting from whatever it was that Shivans were doing.

[dan87uk]

has anyone ever remembered a small overlooked detail.....when the aquitane first enters the nebula it sends out patrols....one of those patrols goes missing yes? then several missions later a survivor comes back warning the GTVA to leave before its too late before subsequently being killed by a wing of mara's. has any1 considered that this unit may have been to the 2nd knossos to 'lion's den' then gone on the the other knossos aswel?

just some thoughts...

[aldo_14]

General consensus is that Kappa 3 encounters the Sathanas.  I think it's discussed in one of the dev-diaries in the FS2 website.

EDIT
[q]9.6.99
Item #: 2163
Original Date: 8/31/99
From: Jason Scott to Jason Scott

[FreeSpace 2] SM2-02: A thought just occurred to me. We had discussed long time ago the possibility of having one of the lost Gamma wing pilots in SM1-05 return, babbling some nonsense about big Shivan ships. It would be mighty cool, methinks, if this errant pilot were to appear at the end of this mission, say a few choice words, then combust.

James Agay: I like it! Give me the lines you want in

Jason Scott: Aaaaah! Aaaaaaaah! No! Nooooooooooooo! Aaaaaaaaah!

Mike Breault: I like it. It really rounds out his character, moves the story along, and ties up all the loose ends.

James Agay: A tad more specific perhaps? You just want someone to warp in, scream and explode? I don't think anyone, myself included, will get it.

[Apparently Jason, our overburdened writer, was worried about a writing change in this mission. Not sure how he resolved it. You'll have to play Act II, Mission 2 to find out.][/q]

[karajorma]

Originally posted by dan87uk
has anyone ever remembered a small overlooked detail.....when the aquitane first enters the nebula it sends out patrols....one of those patrols goes missing yes? then several missions later a survivor comes back warning the GTVA to leave before its too late before subsequently being killed by a wing of mara's. has any1 considered that this unit may have been to the 2nd knossos to 'lion's den' then gone on the the other knossos aswel?

It's a nice idea but it's unlikely considering the fact that it would have required an intersystem jump drive to do so. Such drives are very expensive and even though the nebula was an vast unknown patrol area it's unlikely that they would have been sent out in fighters equipped with one.

Besides unless he was in a pegasus could you really see a lone terran pilot managing to slip past the shivans in not just one but two systems?