[Akalabeth Angel]

If I have a big, long blacksmiths hammer, and you get in my way and point a knife at me, I might hit you on the head. And you'd think 'that hammer is a weapon, it hit me'.

But at the end of the day it isn't, it's just a blacksmiths tool.

     True, but some cultures use big long hammers, like the Die Tsuchi, for weapons. So if someone came at you, one might think "hey, that guy's a blacksmith, or works in a quarry with a hammer like that" when really he's a warrior and that's just his weapon of choice.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by Akalabeth Angel
If I have a big, long blacksmiths hammer, and you get in my way and point a knife at me, I might hit you on the head. And you'd think 'that hammer is a weapon, it hit me'.

But at the end of the day it isn't, it's just a blacksmiths tool.

     True, but some cultures use big long hammers, like the Die Tsuchi, for weapons. So if someone came at you, one might think "hey, that guy's a blacksmith, or works in a quarry with a hammer like that" when really he's a warrior and that's just his weapon of choice.

If I'm a blacksmith, and I have a big, long blacksmiths hammer, and you get in my way and point a knife at me, I might hit you on the head. And you'd think 'that hammer is a weapon, it hit me'.

But at the end of the day it isn't, it's just a blacksmiths tool.

Happy?

[Akalabeth Angel]

Not really, because I'm not sure how your post added anything above what your other post did, basically you just qouted yourself which served little purpose at all.

    Anyway, to cut the analogies, the point is that the Sathanas is a warship, in the same way that the Lucifer is a warship. Everyone likes to cite how the Sathanas wasn't engaging the fleet, but was rather gathered around the Capellan sun. Well remember that first of all, the Sathanas single-handidly spearheaded the invasion of both Gamma Draconis, and Capella. It wasn't Shivan warships that were first through the Knossos, or shivan warships that were first in Capella, it was the Sathanas. One doesn't send science ships, or colony ships, ahead of warships.

     Now, when in Capella, if one assumes the destruction of the star was for some greater purpose than to wipe out Capella, then the Sathanas was operating in a non-military capacity. But do those mission objectives invalidate its role as a warship? Does an American Aircraft carrier helping with the relief in Indonesia become something other than a warship because its not dropping bombs on people with its airplanes? No, of course not.

      The Sathanas purposely engaged and destroyed allied warships thoughout the Nebula. Its first mission was to strike at a Sobek, it later destroyed a GTVA fleet. It spearheaded the assault into Gamma Draconis, securing the area around the Knossos first with its fighters and then with the ship itself. It jumped into Capella, AHEAD of a Demon destroyer with mission objectives which at that time were unclear. Later, the second Sathanas, partially in response to the destruction of Shivan ships near the second Knossos jumps in and destroys the Hatshepsut (forget its name). Furthermore, the Sathanas is almost always acting alone, never with supporting ships.

      The Sathanas is a warship, and the Shivans are clearly using it like a warship where it is specifically going out to engage GTVA ships, often in advance of other Shivan forces.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by Akalabeth Angel
Not really, because I'm not sure how your post added anything above what your other post did, basically you just qouted yourself which served little purpose at all.

I'm sorry, but my point should have been blatantly obvious.  If a blacksmith has to use his tool as a weapon - for whatever reason - it doesn't stop him being a blacksmith or his tool being a tool.

Originally posted by Akalabeth Angel

    Anyway, to cut the analogies, the point is that the Sathanas is a warship, in the same way that the Lucifer is a warship. Everyone likes to cite how the Sathanas wasn't engaging the fleet, but was rather gathered around the Capellan sun. Well remember that first of all, the Sathanas single-handidly spearheaded the invasion of both Gamma Draconis, and Capella. It wasn't Shivan warships that were first through the Knossos, or shivan warships that were first in Capella, it was the Sathanas. One doesn't send science ships, or colony ships, ahead of warships.

The first Shivan warship through the Knossos was a Moloch, some transports and a deployment of Mara.  Had the Sathanas been deployed in an invasion force, I would have expected it to travel with a supporting battlegroup, rather than on its own.

Of course, the whole idea of a Shivan invasion of GD and Capella is a debatable one; all we know is that they travelled to a star, did something, and then (the Saths) departed.

Originally posted by Akalabeth Angel
    Now, when in Capella, if one assumes the destruction of the star was for some greater purpose than to wipe out Capella, then the Sathanas was operating in a non-military capacity. But do those mission objectives invalidate its role as a warship? Does an American Aircraft carrier helping with the relief in Indonesia become something other than a warship because its not dropping bombs on people with its airplanes? No, of course not.

And does that change the converse?  Of course not; it's equally as valid.

Originally posted by Akalabeth Angel
      The Sathanas purposely engaged and destroyed allied warships thoughout the Nebula. Its first mission was to strike at a Sobek, it later destroyed a GTVA fleet. It spearheaded the assault into Gamma Draconis, securing the area around the Knossos first with its fighters and then with the ship itself. It jumped into Capella, AHEAD of a Demon destroyer with mission objectives which at that time were unclear. Later, the second Sathanas, partially in response to the destruction of Shivan ships near the second Knossos jumps in and destroys the Hatshepsut (forget its name). Furthermore, the Sathanas is almost always acting alone, never with supporting ships.

We have no evidence what the Sathanas' mission was.  It could have been a vessel to survey Capella.  Or a lure to identify the GTVAs strongest weaponry, using knowledge from the Great War to anticiapte it would be attacked.

The fact it is an enormously powerful vessel and able to defend itself, does not mean it is a dedicated or even intentional warship.  It just means that the Shivans built a big powerful ship for some purpose presumably involving a star.

(NB: the colossus has a large supporting fleet as seen in the FS2 intro, and is the closest ship to the Sath in terms of size and power.  If you disregard this example because it's a Terran vessel, then you have to also consider that Shivan 'military' tactics might not be military but simply the actions of a different type of mind)

Originally posted by Akalabeth Angel
      The Sathanas is a warship, and the Shivans are clearly using it like a warship where it is specifically going out to engage GTVA ships, often in advance of other Shivan forces.

Or maybe they're just running into the GTVA forces.  If the Sathani had been specifically intended to engage GTVA ships, then why did 80 sit around the Capellan star whilst the entire Shivan fleet was fighting?

And the Shivans are, i think, an xenophobic race.  Whilst the Sath might engage any enemy ships it comes across, it doesn't mean that's its primary purpose; it just means the Shivans don't pass up an opportunity to kill.

i.e. I see no reason why the Sathanas has to be designed, conceived or intended as a warship rather than some other form or purpose of vessel.  As we know nothing about the Shivans intent, fleet deployment, or origins, then we can't make a definite conclusion on the purpose / mission  of the Sathanas( in particular).  That's my point.

[Liberator]

Originally posted by aldo_14
i.e. I see no reason why the Sathanas has to be designed, conceived or intended as a warship rather than some other form or purpose of vessel.  As we know nothing about the Shivans intent, fleet deployment, or origins, then we can't make a definite conclusion on the purpose / mission  of the Sathanas( in particular).  That's my point.

That's exactly the point.  The Shivans are so alien, unlike the Vasudans, that we do not have the same reference point.  We can't think like they do.  We can make inferences based on ship design, deductions based on past behavior.  If we had had peaceful communication with them, how would you explain any of the basic concepts that are common knowledge to humans(and most likely Vasudans, despite the language barrier)

[Akalabeth Angel]

Or maybe they're just running into the GTVA forces. If the Sathani had been specifically intended to engage GTVA ships, then why did 80 sit around the Capellan star whilst the entire Shivan fleet was fighting?

And the Shivans are, i think, an xenophobic race. Whilst the Sath might engage any enemy ships it comes across, it doesn't mean that's its primary purpose; it just means the Shivans don't pass up an opportunity to kill.

i.e. I see no reason why the Sathanas has to be designed, conceived or intended as a warship rather than some other form or purpose of vessel. As we know nothing about the Shivans intent, fleet deployment, or origins, then we can't make a definite conclusion on the purpose / mission of the Sathanas( in particular). That's my point.

     I think you're missing my point. I never said that the Sathanas was "intended to engage GTVA ships". What I said that is that the mission of the Sathanas in Capella was a non-combat mission, which involved the destruction of the star (for whatever purpose).

     What, exactly in your definition is a warship? A ship specifically designed to attack other ships? That's not my definition. The Sathanas is a warship because it is used to destroy, used to attack, used to conduct war. Just because its primary or secondary purpose is the subspace 'device' employed around Capella, does not invalidate its capability to make war. The Sathanas did not simply "come across" all of those ships in the nebula. It did not simply, jump in beside a sobek by accident, and blow it to hell. Its actions and its attack was deliberate.

      Simply put, the Sathanas is a warship because it is used in an offensive role during a time of war.

       The ship has the most powerful beam weapons of any ship in the entire fleet. It carries scores of shivan fighter craft. It has jumped into an area with the specific purpose of engaging and destroying a GTVA vessel (Sobek, Colossus).

       Why didn't the Sathanas fleet engage the GTVA fleet in Capella? Simple: It had better things to do, and the rest of the Shivans were doing just fine. One should note of course that a Sathanas did engage the GTVA Colossus in Capella during thier Finest hour (or whatever mission it was). The Sathanas didn't jump in from the node, so it was already insystem. The ship was either diverted from the star, or diverted from its approach to the star. In either case, the ship was used as a "warship", because the previous attempts by other Shivan forces (Lilith, Ravana) were quite simply inadequate. It didn't just happen upon the scene, it didn't jump in by accident. It was diverted from its primary objective, its non-combat mission with the specific purpose of destroying the Colossus. Wouldn't that fit your definition of a warship?? It certainly fits mine.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by Akalabeth Angel


     I think you're missing my point. I never said that the Sathanas was "intended to engage GTVA ships". What I said that is that the mission of the Sathanas in Capella was a non-combat mission, which involved the destruction of the star (for whatever purpose).

     What, exactly in your definition is a warship? A ship specifically designed to attack other ships? That's not my definition. The Sathanas is a warship because it is used to destroy, used to attack, used to conduct war. Just because its primary or secondary purpose is the subspace 'device' employed around Capella, does not invalidate its capability to make war. The Sathanas did not simply "come across" all of those ships in the nebula. It did not simply, jump in beside a sobek by accident, and blow it to hell. Its actions and its attack was deliberate.

      Simply put, the Sathanas is a warship because it is used in an offensive role during a time of war.

       The ship has the most powerful beam weapons of any ship in the entire fleet. It carries scores of shivan fighter craft. It has jumped into an area with the specific purpose of engaging and destroying a GTVA vessel (Sobek, Colossus).

       Why didn't the Sathanas fleet engage the GTVA fleet in Capella? Simple: It had better things to do, and the rest of the Shivans were doing just fine. One should note of course that a Sathanas did engage the GTVA Colossus in Capella during thier Finest hour (or whatever mission it was). The Sathanas didn't jump in from the node, so it was already insystem. The ship was either diverted from the star, or diverted from its approach to the star. In either case, the ship was used as a "warship", because the previous attempts by other Shivan forces (Lilith, Ravana) were quite simply inadequate. It didn't just happen upon the scene, it didn't jump in by accident. It was diverted from its primary objective, its non-combat mission with the specific purpose of destroying the Colossus. Wouldn't that fit your definition of a warship?? It certainly fits mine.

My definition of a warship is a ship purposely designed for combating other warships or enemy support vessels.  I think the use of the Sathanas in Capella raises the possibility that it is not designed for that primary purpose, but simply has the necessary weapons to defend itself.

now, the only specific event of a Sath arriving and attacking a ship with an intra-system jump I can recall is the Colossus.  Precluding the possibility of coincidence, it's quite possible the Colossus was considered an exceptional or immenent theat, and there were no other free vessels.  Whilst the Sathanas might be the most powerful ship in the Shivan fleet (that we know of), that does not imply it is designed for war; it just means it's powerful.

In the case of the beam weapons, they may be powerful due to a primary purpose of subspace manipulation; certainly we know those 4 prongs have some key role in what happened in Capella.  With respect to the fighter craft, it's equally possible that they are intended to defend the Sathanas (if it is a colony ship or the like, and thus a high value target), or even simply for long range scouting purposes.

I do not think there is any evidence that can be used to say conclusively the Sath is a warship; there is too much that is unknown about the Shivans.  But if the Sathanas was specifically responsible for and escaped the supernova when no other Shivan vessel did, then it implies some purpose which makes it less 'disposable' as the other Shivan vessels.

[Akalabeth Angel]

I do not think there is any evidence that can be used to say conclusively the Sath is a warship; there is too much that is unknown about the Shivans. But if the Sathanas was specifically responsible for and escaped the supernova when no other Shivan vessel did, then it implies some purpose which makes it less 'disposable' as the other Shivan vessels.

      I think all Shivan forces are 'disposable' (I'd use "expendable" myself); the only important thing to the Shivans is their long or short term goals.

[Lightspeed]

Originally posted by aldo_14


Subspace nodes require an intense region of gravity... so if the Shivans created, for example, a black hole then that would be a pretty intense region of gravity.  Which leads me to consider+ that Capella was destroyed to create a node... certainly Petrarchs final briefing would lay a degree of support to that*

*So much in FS2 is a matter of interpretation... Bosch raises the possibility of the GTVA being wrong, so we have to make the same assessment of both his actions and what the GTVA believes about the Shivans.  What I'm wondering is, have :V: ever flat out lied in the FS2 story?

+ and there's a reason for me taking towards that theory.  Sort of.  Hehe.


No evidence either way, however.  So it's still a valid idea IMO.

The Shivans, in many ways, are a big rosarch blot.... although I suspect that's more of an aspect of this community than :V:s intention.

I doubt they created a black hole. If you watch the endgame movie, you cannot see anything remaining behind. If indeed a black hole was to be created, they'd have needed tons of mass practically coming from "nowhere", or to concentrate the sun in a very very small spot. In both cases, you should clearly be able to see the result in the movie. However, no distortion, or other indicative of a black hole can be seen. I doubt :V: have decided on the latter parts of the storyline. Personally, I believe Petrarch - the GTVA - is wrong.  And even if they were told, they would refuse to listen. A typical syndrome in the human race, I might add.

Originally posted by High Max


aahhhh...the Sathanas is definately designed to fight a war. In the briefing of the mission "Bear Baiting" it says that the Sathanas single-handedly decimated the entire fleet guarding the GD/Capella jump node. I would think that the Sathanas would be the most powerful warship in all of the original FS2 campaign. Those 4 BFreds make very short work of any ship and it has about 80 turrets and an ultra-strong hull. It has to be a warship. It may however serve more purposes than just a warship. It could be a warship/star destroyer hybrid. It excels as a warship so it must be one. Also, don't forget on that first Vasudan mission (Fog of War) that right after the Sathanas destroyed the Tatanen, Command said, "abort the mission, we do not have the firepower to challenge that warship". Command called it a warship.

Originally posted by Akalabeth Angel


     I think you're missing my point. I never said that the Sathanas was "intended to engage GTVA ships". What I said that is that the mission of the Sathanas in Capella was a non-combat mission, which involved the destruction of the star (for whatever purpose).

     What, exactly in your definition is a warship? A ship specifically designed to attack other ships? That's not my definition. The Sathanas is a warship because it is used to destroy, used to attack, used to conduct war. Just because its primary or secondary purpose is the subspace 'device' employed around Capella, does not invalidate its capability to make war. The Sathanas did not simply "come across" all of those ships in the nebula. It did not simply, jump in beside a sobek by accident, and blow it to hell. Its actions and its attack was deliberate.

      Simply put, the Sathanas is a warship because it is used in an offensive role during a time of war.

       The ship has the most powerful beam weapons of any ship in the entire fleet. It carries scores of shivan fighter craft. It has jumped into an area with the specific purpose of engaging and destroying a GTVA vessel (Sobek, Colossus).

       Why didn't the Sathanas fleet engage the GTVA fleet in Capella? Simple: It had better things to do, and the rest of the Shivans were doing just fine. One should note of course that a Sathanas did engage the GTVA Colossus in Capella during thier Finest hour (or whatever mission it was). The Sathanas didn't jump in from the node, so it was already insystem. The ship was either diverted from the star, or diverted from its approach to the star. In either case, the ship was used as a "warship", because the previous attempts by other Shivan forces (Lilith, Ravana) were quite simply inadequate. It didn't just happen upon the scene, it didn't jump in by accident. It was diverted from its primary objective, its non-combat mission with the specific purpose of destroying the Colossus. Wouldn't that fit your definition of a warship?? It certainly fits mine.

The Sathanas is definately not designed to wage a war. Yes, the Sathanas carries massive armament. And yes, Command considers it a warship. But then again, the GTA thought The PVFr Satis a cruiser for quite some time. Go figure. The Sathanas is only made for a single purpose. The only really mighty weapons it has are its beam weapons, and you'll notice they're placed just at the end of its "arms". Now what we can see of the Sathanii makes them being a warship unlikely. The Shivans exclusively use them for Capella, except for one ship. And here's an interesting thought for you: The Sathanii obviously are made to generate/carry? an immense amount of energy. That energy CAN be consumed, as is shown by the remaining Saths. Wouldn't it make sense to actually use that power for its beams as well? They're what makes the Sathanas such strong a vessel, and interestingly enough fire from the same device used to channel the energy for the nova. What if the Sathanas attacking the GTVA had actually spent too much energy, making it useless for the events at Capella? As a result, it would only have spent its "remaining energies" on killing the Colossus and its fleet. Command is wrong in thinking of the Sathanas as a warship.

Originally posted by Turnsky


it's quite plausable that the Sath was really just a big subspace generator, and the four "prongs" on the front end of it focus that concentrated subspace energy..

the lucifer seemed purpose built for obliterating any planetary civilisation, as evidenced by the fall of vasuda prime..  the sheilds also support this theory, because the lucifer's sheilds would not only protect it against enemy warships, etc, but high powered planetary defences, also..

as well, it's also quite likely that a good deal of shivan vessels are ancient in terms of overall age..

as for the shivans themselves...  it's clear that the ancients didn't create them. just listen to the monologues of the ancients in FS1,

it's also very clear to me, that the shivans have a "method to their madness" because if they really wanted to, and they do have the resources as evidenced by capella, that they could wipe out both species of the GTVA, and then some.

Yes, indeed. It's a common Shivan concept only to use as much technology as necessary, and it's also common to have special ships for special tasks (see Lucifer and Sathanas).

The Shivans definately weren't created by the Ancients, and the whole theory of them beine "created" is pretty much nonsense anyway.

It's also clear they are not the xenophobic race Command thinks them to be. If they'd just slaughter everything, both FS1 and FS2 (Ancients Cutscenes, Monologues, and the missions) would make absolutely no sense. And if anyone would still doubt, Bosch is the living proof.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by Lightspeed


I doubt they created a black hole. If you watch the endgame movie, you cannot see anything remaining behind. If indeed a black hole was to be created, they'd have needed tons of mass practically coming from "nowhere"

How about from subspace?

Originally posted by Lightspeed
, or to concentrate the sun in a very very small spot. In both cases, you should clearly be able to see the result in the movie.

Perhaps that green distortion around the sun? (after the shockwaves, 1:05 in approx)

Originally posted by Lightspeed
However, no distortion, or other indicative of a black hole can be seen. I doubt :V: have decided on the latter parts of the storyline.

Actually, nothing can be seen atall.  There's a shakycam shot of the shockwave origin, whih cuts to the Deimos & Molochs debris, and finally whites out; we never see the core of the star after the supernova (technically we never see the end of the supernova atall)

Originally posted by Lightspeed
Personally, I believe Petrarch - the GTVA - is wrong.  And even if they were told, they would refuse to listen. A typical syndrome in the human race, I might add.

But not one that applies to Bosch?

With regards to Bosch' survival, I always liked this analogy; if an ant stopped one day, and started talking to you, wouldn't you at least want to stop a while and find out what it had to say and why?

[Lightspeed]

HM: I don't think so. The Shivans don't need to stabilize nodes to jump through them, nor do they need Knossos portals.

Originally posted by aldo_14


How about from subspace?

Then the node would already have to have existed.

Perhaps that green distortion around the sun? (after the shockwaves, 1:05 in approx)

That's before the supernova. The Sathanii are not pulled towards the sun, so it's safe to assume the gravity stays more or less the same before the explosion (actually, during the explosion as well.)

 

Actually, nothing can be seen atall.  There's a shakycam shot of the shockwave origin, whih cuts to the Deimos & Molochs debris, and finally whites out; we never see the core of the star after the supernova (technically we never see the end of the supernova atall)

Yes, of course we don't see up to the end, but if a black hole were not to form until later, the Sathanii couldnt have jumped out through said "new node". And it's precisely the fact that we see "nothing" that I think it unlikely.

 

But not one that applies to Bosch?

You have to take into consideration that Bosch is indeed an individual. Individual persons don't follow the rules as much as masses of people. In fact, the more people you take, the easier their actions can be predicted. That's what makes Bosch stand out from the GTVA. You can never predict what an insane individual may be up to, but you can predict with shocking precision what a large mass of people is going to do.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by Lightspeed
HM: I don't think so. The Shivans don't need to stabilize nodes to jump through them, nor do they need Knossos portals.


Then the node would already have to have existed.

Maybe it did; we know that very unstable short term nodes exist, they're just not used for transport.  Or perhaps they were creating the postulated 'supernode' and capella was chose as it had some suitablity for this purpose, such as a subspace rfit in or close.  Or perhaps the Sathani were able to create a short term node for themselves, and their actions were to create a stable node for other ships to use.

Originally posted by Lightspeed

That's before the supernova. The Sathanii are not pulled towards the sun, so it's safe to assume the gravity stays more or less the same before the explosion (actually, during the explosion as well.)

 
IIRC a black hole does not have infinite range.   And we simply don't see the Saths after the nova anyways; we see the star enlarge, encompass the Sathana, and that's all.

Of course, all this is assuming they succeeded in what they wanted to do.

Originally posted by Lightspeed

Yes, of course we don't see up to the end, but if a black hole were not to form until later, the Sathanii couldnt have jumped out through said "new node". And it's precisely the fact that we see "nothing" that I think it unlikely.

(see above)
We don't know where they jumped out to, though.  So we don't know if they simply hopped into an intra system jump to wait it out or something similar.
 

Originally posted by Lightspeed

You have to take into consideration that Bosch is indeed an individual. Individual persons don't follow the rules as much as masses of people. In fact, the more people you take, the easier their actions can be predicted. That's what makes Bosch stand out from the GTVA. You can never predict what an insane individual may be up to, but you can predict with shocking precision what a large mass of people is going to do.

So?  He's still human, he's still fallible.  

Yes, the individual is more unpredicatable, but the individual also doesn't have the checks imposed by rational society.  that same ability to 'think outside the box' also increase the chance of miscalculation or mistakes.

And, of course, Petrarch is also an individual, making a philosophical comment - is that any less valid than Bosches monologues?

[karajorma]

Originally posted by Lightspeed
That's before the supernova. The Sathanii are not pulled towards the sun, so it's safe to assume the gravity stays more or less the same before the explosion (actually, during the explosion as well.)

Not quite sure I follow you LS. Are you saying that cause the Saths don't get pulled in towards Capella there couldn't have been a black hole created? Cause if so that's not true.

Even if 100% of Capella's mass had been turned into a black hole they wouldn't be pulled into it.

Gravity is a function of mass and the black hole would actually weigh less than the star that created it cause some of that mass was flung away during the supernova.

If they weren't being pulled towards Capella before the nova they wouldn't be being pulled towards it afterwards either, regardless of whether or not a black hole was formed

[NGTM-1R]

Simple analogy: If the Sun were suddenly to be replaced by a black hole of the same mass, the orbits of the planets would not be altered at all. Same overall gravitational pull. Black holes are only different at very close range.

@Aldo: The Charybdis and the Triton as combatants? Being in combat does not make you a combatant spacecraft, it merely means you were in the wrong place at the wrong time. The two have non-combatant roles, AWACs and freighter, and their armament clearly indicates this.

The Sathanas does not have armament that indicates a non-combat role. Before you try an apply the anthropomorphic fallacy arguement (which I consider fallacious, but that's another subject), consider that the Shivans have their own non-combat craft that we have as a frame of reference: the Azreal, Mephisto, Dis, and Asmodeus.

These ships all have armament that might be expected of a Terran craft in a similar role.

Further, if one accepts that the Sathanas is meant solely as a Novamaker, then you encounter a problem. Such a ship would obviously be a prime target. However the armament of a Sathanas is poorly suited to defending itself when it is holding station near the star it's trying to destroy. This is a tactical consideration, and it holds true for anything from any race and any mentality that must sit still for a long period of time.

On the other hand, the Sathanas, with its guns-forward main armament, is uniquely suited to offensive action. Again this is a tactical consideration that can be seen easily enough by anyone, an objective reality if you will, that cannot be explained away by a differing mentality. Because of roughly similar technology, the tactical concerns for both Terrans and Shivans are also similar. They have to be. There are only so many ways one can use a weapon, after all.

[dan87uk]

Originally posted by ngtm1r

On the other hand, the Sathanas, with its guns-forward main armament, is uniquely suited to offensive action. Again this is a tactical consideration that can be seen easily enough by anyone, an objective reality if you will, that cannot be explained away by a differing mentality. Because of roughly similar technology, the tactical concerns for both Terrans and Shivans are also similar. They have to be. There are only so many ways one can use a weapon, after all.

You forget, every race has a unique style os design, the shivans, as old as they may be, are no different, there preference is to show force at the front of their ships, that is their design, its only drawback is that it leaves its rear heavily undefended in comparison, just look at a cain/lilith or rakshasa, the cain/lilith has 3 forward facing prongs, the rakshasa has 6 forward facing prongs 4 of them being beam cannons, the only exceptions you would have to say are the moloch and demon, the demon's design seems to concentrate on facing down and 'clasping' type design. and the molock is just a corvette in a unique shape. The sathanas is still a match for any vessel when not facing them, altho notably weaker than if they were facing them of course.

The basic jist of my point is that Terran and Shivan Vessels are not alike in their design, yes the basic functions are the same though, freighter, cruiser,corvette etc, altho i dont think shivans would bother with an AWACS

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by ngtm1r



@Aldo: The Charybdis and the Triton as combatants? Being in combat does not make you a combatant spacecraft, it merely means you were in the wrong place at the wrong time. The two have non-combatant roles, AWACs and freighter, and their armament clearly indicates this.

The Sathanas does not have armament that indicates a non-combat role. Before you try an apply the anthropomorphic fallacy arguement (which I consider fallacious, but that's another subject), consider that the Shivans have their own non-combat craft that we have as a frame of reference: the Azreal, Mephisto, Dis, and Asmodeus.

These ships all have armament that might be expected of a Terran craft in a similar role.

Yes, but the Sathani is clearly of a different role to any Terran ship based upon what we saw it do at the end of fs2. You'll notice that it's primary offensive weapon was, however, situated in the same area as the technology that created the subspace rift.  In fact, the glow on the tips of those prongs as it 'pulls' open the rift, appears identifcal to a beamglow.

EDIT; oh, and according to the table entries the Sathanas is also an AWACs.

Originally posted by ngtm1r
Further, if one accepts that the Sathanas is meant solely as a Novamaker, then you encounter a problem. Such a ship would obviously be a prime target. However the armament of a Sathanas is poorly suited to defending itself when it is holding station near the star it's trying to destroy. This is a tactical consideration, and it holds true for anything from any race and any mentality that must sit still for a long period of time.

Look at Capella.  The Shivan fleet engaged GTVA.  Sathani were thus left unmolested.

Originally posted by ngtm1r
On the other hand, the Sathanas, with its guns-forward main armament, is uniquely suited to offensive action.

Action against a star.  So it's really about equivalent in defensive tech to a super-large transport, but with frontal 'weapons' that serve as it's primary tool in whatever it does to stars.

Originally posted by ngtm1r
Again this is a tactical consideration that can be seen easily enough by anyone, an objective reality if you will, that cannot be explained away by a differing mentality. Because of roughly similar technology, the tactical concerns for both Terrans and Shivans are also similar. They have to be. There are only so many ways one can use a weapon, after all.

Firstly, we have no comparison of technology between the GTVA and Shivans; it is very clear very little is known or revealed about the Shivans tech - we know they know a lot more about subspace than the GTVA (travel via unstable nodes, Capella), but that's about it.

Secondly, the Shivans clearly have a different objective to the GTVA; namely Capella.  GTVa tactics are towards attacking and later on retreating from the Shivans; so both have massively diverging tactical concerns.  The Shivans can also seemingly afford to sacrifice ships - possibly even Sathani themselves in endgame(1) - in order to allow the bulk of the Sathanas fleet to perform their mission.

Thirdly, the 'so many kind of ways can use a weapon' is pretty invalid, because you have to know that a) something is a weapon and b) how it can be used.  We don't have any proof the Sathanas (or rather, it's main beams) is primarily designed to be a weapon, and we have seen already it's use in a vastly different scenario than would otherwise have been imagined from it's initial ingame use.

[DIO]

Just 1 thought
.
Shivan fleet appeared in FS1:
No beams, no flakguns.
Total technological superiority at beggining of invasion.
Shivan fleet appeared in Early stages of FS2:
Beams and flaks, but small number of ships and no sathanas.
No technological superiority.
Shivan fleet appeared in later stages of FS2:
1 sathanas single handedly trys to destroy GTVA forces.
Only the GTVA's tactics was able to destroy the Sathanas, not the technology.
Shivan fleet appeared in final stages of FS2:
Almost unlimited number of ships, and more then 80 sathanas.
Small technological superiority.

Does this mean Shivans analyze the threat of its enemys and deploy forces that is only necessary to destroy it, not using unnecesseary large forces?

For me, it appeares that Shivans took GTVA's destruction of Ravana by surprise, and they deployed the ship that is most powerfull, or powerfull enough to archive total superiority, the Sathanas.
And even the Sathanas was destroyed, so they rushed to send fleet enough to squash entire GTVA easily.
Am I correct in this?

[Lightspeed]

Originally posted by aldo_14


Maybe it did; we know that very unstable short term nodes exist, they're just not used for transport.  Or perhaps they were creating the postulated 'supernode' and capella was chose as it had some suitablity for this purpose, such as a subspace rfit in or close.  Or perhaps the Sathani were able to create a short term node for themselves, and their actions were to create a stable node for other ships to use.

For other ships to use? Excuse me, but would you want to send ships to a fresh super nova environment?

 

IIRC a black hole does not have infinite range.   And we simply don't see the Saths after the nova anyways; we see the star enlarge, encompass the Sathana, and that's all.

We see the Sathanii and even planets blown away by the sheer force. So quite a lot, probably almost all of the sun's material must be blown literally off in all directions.

(see above)
We don't know where they jumped out to, though.  So we don't know if they simply hopped into an intra system jump to wait it out or something similar.

Since the nova probably is thousands of times larger than the system, this is unlikely.

 

So?  He's still human, he's still fallible.  

Yes, the individual is more unpredicatable, but the individual also doesn't have the checks imposed by rational society.  that same ability to 'think outside the box' also increase the chance of miscalculation or mistakes.

And, of course, Petrarch is also an individual, making a philosophical comment - is that any less valid than Bosches monologues?

Petrarch is the representation of the GTVA. Nobody knows about Bosch's motives, it's his alone. Petrarch is strongly influenced by his environment, the GTVA philosophy. He cannot "think outside the box" as Bosch can. And while Bosch may be indeed be making mistakes or miscalculations (he even wonders if he did when he enters the nebula), it's somewhat proven that he's right, seen how his plan succeeds. (at least the first step)

Originally posted by karajorma


Not quite sure I follow you LS. Are you saying that cause the Saths don't get pulled in towards Capella there couldn't have been a black hole created? Cause if so that's not true.

Even if 100% of Capella's mass had been turned into a black hole they wouldn't be pulled into it.

Gravity is a function of mass and the black hole would actually weigh less than the star that created it cause some of that mass was flung away during the supernova.

If they weren't being pulled towards Capella before the nova they wouldn't be being pulled towards it afterwards either, regardless of whether or not a black hole was formed

It was speculated that additional mass would have been "jumped" into the system, which is what I was referring to. The Capellan sun itself would probably not have enough mass for a decent black hole, and without the large amount of mass (all?) blown off through the nova (we can see the force whacking things off in all directions, so there must be quite a lot of "flying mass" involved. Remember there's no "air" in space, so the force is exclusively transmitted by the star's matter) there will hardly remain enough for such a phenomenon.

Originally posted by DIO
Just 1 thought
.
Shivan fleet appeared in FS1:
No beams, no flakguns.
Total technological superiority at beggining of invasion.
Shivan fleet appeared in Early stages of FS2:
Beams and flaks, but small number of ships and no sathanas.
No technological superiority.
Shivan fleet appeared in later stages of FS2:
1 sathanas single handedly trys to destroy GTVA forces.
Only the GTVA's tactics was able to destroy the Sathanas, not the technology.
Shivan fleet appeared in final stages of FS2:
Almost unlimited number of ships, and more then 80 sathanas.
Small technological superiority.

Does this mean Shivans analyze the threat of its enemys and deploy forces that is only necessary to destroy it, not using unnecesseary large forces?

Of course. Would the GTVA have sent the Colossus if an Aeolus would have done the job?

For me, it appeares that Shivans took GTVA's destruction of Ravana by surprise, and they deployed the ship that is most powerfull, or powerfull enough to archive total superiority, the Sathanas.
And even the Sathanas was destroyed, so they rushed to send fleet enough to squash entire GTVA easily.
Am I correct in this?

No. If you were to be, the Sathanii would have attacked the GTVA.

The Sathanii were only deployed for their specific task.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by Lightspeed


For other ships to use? Excuse me, but would you want to send ships to a fresh super nova environment?

We see the Sathanii and even planets blown away by the sheer force. So quite a lot, probably almost all of the sun's material must be blown literally off in all directions.

Since the nova probably is thousands of times larger than the system, this is unlikely.

We don't kno0w the conditions of the system post-nova, or indeed the scope of the nova, only a visual representation  Simple as that.

 

Originally posted by Lightspeed
Petrarch is the representation of the GTVA. Nobody knows about Bosch's motives, it's his alone. Petrarch is strongly influenced by his environment, the GTVA philosophy. He cannot "think outside the box" as Bosch can. And while Bosch may be indeed be making mistakes or miscalculations (he even wonders if he did when he enters the nebula), it's somewhat proven that he's right, seen how his plan succeeds. (at least the first step)

It's not proven that Bosch is right in any way in his final aim, whatever that may be.  IMO the Shivans have played him a cheap piano.

 He makes communication, that's all.  There's no evidence that his crew was suppossed to die ("As I make this final entry my crew is preparing to scuttle the Iceni and board the shivan transports. We embark on a miraculous journey towards a new horizon."), or that he went willingly after the Shivans arrived ("they took Bosch"; namely use of 'took').

In fact, for making the first steps of a new alliance ("I have initiated the first phase of a new alliance with the destroyers"), the Shivans appear to have been somewhat violent after boarding the Iceni; whether or not you put this down to the Iceni crew panicking, Shivan belligerance or a Bosch double-cross - the truth is we don't know.

Likewise, it's impossible to simply dismiss the GTVA and Petrarch as wrong without any evidence to the contrary.... Petrarch is a key aspect of the storyline, and Volition wouldn't have put in that specific line ("Perhaps they are exiles like we are, nomads wandering the universe, searching for a way back home. The explosion of a star might be a bridge between this universe and their own.") if it wasn't intended to have some relevance or meaning; whether that is a deliberate misdirection or a hint towards the continuation of the storyline, we can't casually dismiss it.

Perhaps there's a reason the original subtitle of FS2 was 'Exodus'?

Originally posted by Lightspeed
It was speculated that additional mass would have been "jumped" into the system, which is what I was referring to. The Capellan sun itself would probably not have enough mass for a decent black hole, and without the large amount of mass (all?) blown off through the nova (we can see the force whacking things off in all directions, so there must be quite a lot of "flying mass" involved. Remember there's no "air" in space, so the force is exclusively transmitted by the star's matter) there will hardly remain enough for such a phenomenon.

We don't know what the Shivans did to Capella, nor how much of it was destroyed and how much compressed.  Or indeed moved or manipulated.  In short, we have no information on what happened during or after that supernova, and - crucially - absolutely no idea what the Shivans did and whether they meant to do it.

[karajorma]

Originally posted by Lightspeed
It was speculated that additional mass would have been "jumped" into the system, which is what I was referring to. The Capellan sun itself would probably not have enough mass for a decent black hole, and without the large amount of mass (all?) blown off through the nova (we can see the force whacking things off in all directions, so there must be quite a lot of "flying mass" involved. Remember there's no "air" in space, so the force is exclusively transmitted by the star's matter) there will hardly remain enough for such a phenomenon.

Capella is actually large enough to form a black hole naturally IIRC. It's just at the wrong point in its lifespan to do so.

As for the damage Capella did to nearby worlds it would take only a tiny percentage of Capella's mass to achieve that effect.