[dan87uk]

ok fair point. it was just a thoguht... as for the 2 stage nova i think ngtm1re's explanation sounds the most plausable, i already had a similar idea since the colour of the second shockwave gave it away that it was somthing to do with subspace(in my eyes anyway)

[Goober5000]

I thought some supernovas were two-stage.  First, the atmosphere gets blown off.  Then, the core implodes.

I would think that would tell us what kind of supernova it is.

[dan87uk]

hmmm....im not sure

[NGTM-1R]

...hmm, you might be thinking of planetary nebulas there Goober, which is what the Sun will do eventually...but a star only blows up once.

[FireCrack]

I'm actualy fairly sure goober is correct, but they happen at basicly the same time


anyways, odds are that there are two explosions for the simple reason that "it looks cool"

[Liberator]

Supernovas are messy affairs.  They don't really come in stages, but they are more complex than what most give them credit for.

The core finally burns(any reference to burning from here on out will refer to the fusion processes taking place at the heart of the star) up the last of the hydrogen after millions, perhaps billions, of years.

It's ironic that the largest stars have the shortest lifetimes.  But the hydrogen is gone and the equilibrium of outward expansion due to the massive amounts of energy released by the core and the contraction of the core is upset.

The core, now composed primarily of helium "ash", begins to contract, pressure begins to build and with it, heat.  The outside observer is oblivious to this process because it takes thousands, perhaps millions of years, for the energy to work it's way to the surface.

Eventually, sufficient pressure builds that the helium begins to fuse under the intense heat.  This is a higher energy process than hydrogen fusion and the resultant "helium flash" blows the material above it outward at relitavistic velocites.

This will happen to our sun in a few billion years, of course Earth won't have to worry about that because she will have been swallowed by the sun's expansion around the end of the hydrogen phase.

Certain larger stars, will repeat this process until they get to iron.  Iron fusion requires more energy than it generates so, finally, after many billions of years the star will cool and what will be left behind will be a mass of iron about the size of Earth but perhaps 1000 times as dense, a black dwarf.  This end is assumes that the star is of course a specific mass, anything much larger and you get a sigularity, anything smaller and you get a planetary nebula.

[aldo_14]

Assuming Capella was actually a supernova and not some super-celestial type event thingie.... i mean, the Shivans are definately messing around with subspace; Capella glow the same shade of green as the rifts(?) formed by the Sathani, immediately after the shockwares of those rifts.

It's possible something has been done on a subspace as well as normal space dimension; in which case all bets are off in tersm of real physics.

Hell, maybe the Shivans just stole a big part of the Capellan star and the rest destabilised......

[karajorma]

Lib Most of what you've written is the process by which a red giant forms. It's got nothing to do with supernovae.

As for the stuff which is about supernovae you've got some serious flaws in it and none of it relates to the original question of whether a supernova is a one or two stage explosion anyway

[Ghostavo]

Originally posted by ngtm1r
I think I have an explanation for the Capella supernova's two-stage nature, since a normal supernova would be single-stage.

(...)

The second stage, the one that blasted everything to Kingdom Come, is some kind of subspace backlash resulting from whatever it was that Shivans were doing.

So the supernova was some kind of pressure valve?

Hm....

*goes write a story sketch*

[Lightspeed]

Originally posted by aldo_14

Exactly.  So we can't say that the Shivans have explicitly destroyed any nodes, only the star.  But we can say the GTVA collapsed one node prior to the supernova, and the second afterwards (presumably; IIRC the brief states a destroyer is standing by to do so, it's not stated whether or not it actually does so in the 'debrief')

Yes, but destroying the star is thus more likely to close than to open a node. The gravity provided by the sun is gone. IF the supernova had any effect on subspace, it closed "nodes". An if it didn't have any effect, it would be pretty useless

Here is an interesting concept; what if the Ancients built the gates first of all?

(wild speculation alert)

i.e. they built this network of Knossos' (like Stargates) to travel the stars, and then stumbled across a network of existing, stable nodes? And because of this 'trespass'. the Shivans came and attacked them, first of all in GTVA space (the ruins in Altair).. so the Ancients pulled back more and more, shutting down the gates as they left. But the Shivans still followed, because they could rebuild the node.  

Interesting. However, evidence from the ancients cutscenes makes this unlikely. They trespassed "when they entered subspace".  An explanation for why the Ancients built the portals is given/suggested in the Bosch monologues.

The supernova in two stage is intriguing, I grant you that, as I would have figured many more stages than just two.

It's safe to assume it doesn't actually stop when the image fades out. Supernovae take quite a while.

 

Actually, there is a great deal of doubt over what the Sath is.... particularly in light of what that fleet did at Capella - they are the one type of vessel that 'escapes', and they don't really go out of there way to engage the GTVA, but gather round the star. Plus the weapon placement leaves huge vulnerability on the rear and sides, too.

IMO they're definately not being used as warships; whilst you could view the destruction of Capella as a military action, you could also say that the Sathani fleet took far greater losses there than it would of had it wished to conquer the GTVA. In the latter case, it implies the Sathani had some other purpose.

Yes, the Sathanas is definately no warship. It is a very specialized ship class, like the Lucifer.

[Gloriano]

Yes, but destroying the star is thus more likely to close than to open a node. The gravity provided by the sun is gone. IF the supernova had any effect on subspace, it closed "nodes". An if it didn't have any effect, it would be pretty useless

maybe they did Balance Subspace when Sathanas fleet used Subspace weapon (or maybe Subspace balancer) to destroy Capella sun


or maybe they did create Universal portal between Galaxies

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by Lightspeed

Yes, but destroying the star is thus more likely to close than to open a node. The gravity provided by the sun is gone. IF the supernova had any effect on subspace, it closed "nodes". An if it didn't have any effect, it would be pretty useless

 We don't know what the gravitational requirements for a stable node are AFAIK.  

I believe black holes in particular are noted for having heavy gravity; and as the Capellan supernova was not natural, I don't think we can rule out the Shivans manipulating it in some way to get the desired effect.

Originally posted by Lightspeed
Interesting. However, evidence from the ancients cutscenes makes this unlikely. They trespassed "when they entered subspace".  An explanation for why the Ancients built the portals is given/suggested in the Bosch monologues.

I meant the trespass was entering the 'stable' subspace network. i.e. as if the subspace nodes were inherently unstable, but the Shivans acted to stabilise them and created their own network; so when the Ancients started using those stable nodes, then they were entering Shivan subspace territory.

However, the positioning of the Knossos' rules that out as a possibility.

Originally posted by High Max
The word warship could just mean any vessel that causes war or is capable of causing war and Sathanas's can cause war and obviously destruction. There are so many Sathanas's that the sheer number of them could make them less specialized. In other words. Not one of a kind like the superdestroyer "lucifer".

Warship generally means a ship designed to fight or operate in a war, rather than causing a war; with that definition a freighter can be considered a warship, as it could (for example) trespass onto disputed territory.

I think the number of Saths, simply indicates that they need a large number of them for doing whatever it is that Sathani do.  blow up stars, possibly.

Or maybe they are colony ships used to transport the Shivan race.

[Liberator]

and as such have enormous defensive capabilities.  A ship that size wouldn't be very good at anything but surprise attacks where it can choose where to alpha strike, as was evident vs. the collossus.

[Lightspeed]

Originally posted by aldo_14


 We don't know what the gravitational requirements for a stable node are AFAIK.  

I believe black holes in particular are noted for having heavy gravity; and as the Capellan supernova was not natural, I don't think we can rule out the Shivans manipulating it in some way to get the desired effect.

Yes, we don't know. But we do know that gravity HELPS a potential node. So if you remove a high object of gravity, you rather close than open anything. Especially if it's connected with a large explosion. There's no evidence on either fact, but IF it has an influence, then it will be in this way, not the other way 'round. We cannot rule out the Shivans manipulating it. But I see them manipulating it just this way, which would also go along with the canon facts we know of subspace.

I think the number of Saths, simply indicates that they need a large number of them for doing whatever it is that Sathani do.  blow up stars, possibly.

Or maybe they are colony ships used to transport the Shivan race.

I doubt the Shivans need transporting. The Sathanas, just like the Lucifer is built for a single purpose.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by Lightspeed


Yes, we don't know. But we do know that gravity HELPS a potential node. So if you remove a high object of gravity, you rather close than open anything. Especially if it's connected with a large explosion. There's no evidence on either fact, but IF it has an influence, then it will be in this way, not the other way 'round. We cannot rule out the Shivans manipulating it. But I see them manipulating it just this way, which would also go along with the canon facts we know of subspace.

Subspace nodes require an intense region of gravity... so if the Shivans created, for example, a black hole then that would be a pretty intense region of gravity.  Which leads me to consider+ that Capella was destroyed to create a node... certainly Petrarchs final briefing would lay a degree of support to that*

*So much in FS2 is a matter of interpretation... Bosch raises the possibility of the GTVA being wrong, so we have to make the same assessment of both his actions and what the GTVA believes about the Shivans.  What I'm wondering is, have :V: ever flat out lied in the FS2 story?

+ and there's a reason for me taking towards that theory.  Sort of.  Hehe.

Originally posted by Lightspeed
I doubt the Shivans need transporting. The Sathanas, just like the Lucifer is built for a single purpose.

No evidence either way, however.  So it's still a valid idea IMO.

The Shivans, in many ways, are a big rosarch blot.... although I suspect that's more of an aspect of this community than :V:s intention.

[FireCrack]

Yeah, just becasue it's a warship doesnt mean it cant have a specialised purpose. You could have a destroyer with a built in awacs for example.

[Turnsky]

Originally posted by Lightspeed

I doubt the Shivans need transporting. The Sathanas, just like the Lucifer is built for a single purpose.

it's quite plausable that the Sath was really just a big subspace generator, and the four "prongs" on the front end of it focus that concentrated subspace energy..

the lucifer seemed purpose built for obliterating any planetary civilisation, as evidenced by the fall of vasuda prime..  the sheilds also support this theory, because the lucifer's sheilds would not only protect it against enemy warships, etc, but high powered planetary defences, also..

as well, it's also quite likely that a good deal of shivan vessels are ancient in terms of overall age..

as for the shivans themselves...  it's clear that the ancients didn't create them. just listen to the monologues of the ancients in FS1,

it's also very clear to me, that the shivans have a "method to their madness" because if they really wanted to, and they do have the resources as evidenced by capella, that they could wipe out both species of the GTVA, and then some.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by High Max


aahhhh...the Sathanas is definately designed to fight a war. In the briefing of the mission "Bear Baiting" it says that the Sathanas single-handedly decimated the entire fleet guarding the GD/Capella jump node. I would think that the Sathanas would be the most powerful warship in all of the original FS2 campaign. Those 4 BFreds make very short work of any ship and it has about 80 turrets and an ultra-strong hull. It has to be a warship. It may however serve more purposes than just a warship. It could be a warship/star destroyer hybrid. It excels as a warship so it must be one. Also, don't forget on that first Vasudan mission (Fog of War) that right after the Sathanas destroyed the Tatanen, Command said, "abort the mission, we do not have the firepower to challenge that warship". Command called it a warship.

If I have a big, long blacksmiths hammer, and you get in my way and point a knife at me, I might hit you on the head.  And you'd think 'that hammer is a weapon, it hit me'.  

But at the end of the day it isn't, it's just a blacksmiths tool.

[NGTM-1R]

Maybe, but the Sathanas is clearly not a non-combatant ship, which is the alternative, so it falls into the warship category by default. After all, the Sathanas is incredibly well-armed and eminently capable of defending itself against or taking the fight to a legion of hostile spacecraft.

I've always considered the design shortcomings of the Sathanas as a representation of the Shivans' attack-oriented mentality about warfare, personally. It was not designed with defensive concerns in mind. After all, the Ravana has the same guns-forward setup and no one doubts that it is a warship.

...which actually leads into the concept from the Shivan Manifesto that there is no true "Shivan territory" in this dimension. The Shivans are so attack-oriented because they literally have nothing here to defend.

[aldo_14]

Even Poseidons have guns, however, and there is no real reason to suppose it isn't a similar situation with the Sathanas.... there is no reason to disprove the idea that the Sathanas isn't a combatant and that the BFReds are simply tools for scientific use which happen to make good weapons; nor is there a reason to doubt the converse.

  The use of the Sathanas to do something to Capella, whilst the rest of the Shivan fleet are still fighting the GTVA, could be evidence of a different, non-military role.

Additionally, the definition of combatant is a difficult one; in the nebula (for example), a Charybdis is a combatant.  A triton is a combatant.  An Argo is a combatant.  

But would you consider either of those to be warships?