[Ghostavo]

IIRC, they only built one Knossos device inside the nebula, isn't Knossos 3 beyond the nebula?

If the Shivans created the nebula, it would mean that the Ancients were standing literally in the burial ground of another civilization before them, which would fit with what Bosch said about the nine cities of Troy, yada, yada, yada... (probably speculation, but still...).

About these issues one is left puzzled either by the lack of data given by V, or errors in it, such as the Capella supernova. The cutscene shows nothing left of the star, but that contradicts the nature of a supernova, which in turn leads to one of two conclusions, either V screwed up and didn't show the remains of the star (be it white dwarf, neutron star, etc...), or the shivan nature of the supernova made it... like it was shown. The nebula beyond Gamma Draconis (bGD) characteristics are linked to the Capellan one which are the following, the shivans created the nebula bGD or they didn't. If they didn't, than all is settled, if they did the Capella supernova puts some questions regarding the nebula bGD, such as "Is the star in the nebula an engine limitation or a previous star that stood in a binary system in that part of space?", etc...

So... we may never know...

(I just love to ramble )

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by dan87uk
again, the point of the supernova would make this theory void, the knowssos devices in the nebula would have been vapourised....unless they were designed to withstand infinity degrees lol

Actually, you missed the really stupid mistake of that theory.... the Knossos was built going from GTVA space, not to it.  

Whoops.  

EDIT; unless the nova vapourised one and not the other (is there an effective range to a nova?)... but that's very iffy reasoning as the 2nd knossos wasn't in a pair, so there's no reason to assume the same was required for the first.

[Goober5000]

Originally posted by aldo_14
The closest to evidence is the statement in Bosches monologue wondering if an ancient Pharoah on earth would have witnessed the supernova.

IIRC, there was a supernova - the earliest recorded I think - witnessed and recorded in Egypt in 1066 (in the Lupus nebula).  But, that would still mean it was much older than 1,000 years, due to the time it took light to travel to earth.

There's another possibility... the nova that created the Crab Nebula.  It was witnessed in 1054 (IIRC) and also falls within the appropriate timeframe.  I have to modify the page I made for the Wiki to account for it...

The interesting thing is that one supernova was type Ia (I think) and the other was type II.  So we can decide between the two of them if we can agree on what kind of supernova the Shivans triggered.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by Goober5000
There's another possibility... the nova that created the Crab Nebula.  It was witnessed in 1054 (IIRC) and also falls within the appropriate timeframe.  I have to modify the page I made for the Wiki to account for it...

The interesting thing is that one supernova was type Ia (I think) and the other was type II.  So we can decide between the two of them if we can agree on what kind of supernova the Shivans triggered.

A biggy?

It would have to be somewhere 7000+ light years distant to account for the Knossos, though.  I'm checking justnow.

EDIT; the Crab nova occured in 5400 BC.  Not got a date for lupus yet

EDIT2; http://www.earth.uni.edu/~morgan/astro/course/Notes/section2/past_sn.html

This, however is very interesting;  http://rathnasree.htmlplanet.com/indian_records_of_the_crab_super.htm

Maybe a bit too subtle, of course, but still.....it's a curiousity (this page is 2 years older than FS2 itself, natch - so don't expect it to have had an actual bearing on the story )

[Goober5000]

http://dynamic6.gamespy.com/~freespace/fsdoc/index.php?pagename=Lupus%20Nebula

I'll have to move the node links into a page titled "Nebula System" and make a new page titled "Crab Nebula".  That way the reader can form his own opinion.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by Goober5000
http://dynamic6.gamespy.com/~freespace/fsdoc/index.php?pagename=Lupus%20Nebula

I'll have to move the node links into a page titled "Nebula System" and make a new page titled "Crab Nebula".  That way the reader can form his own opinion.

I think that page is wrong in stating
[q]We know that the Ancients built the portal that linked Gamma Draconis to the nebula, so we can conjecture that the Shivans caused the parent star to go supernova when they destroyed the Ancients' empire.[/q]

Because of the 2nd Knossos

[Goober5000]

*shrugs* It's a conjecture.  I'm pretty sure Volition meant for this supernova to have occurred during the time of the ancients... it fits in very well with the rest of the story arc.  They just goofed with the second Knossos.

[dan87uk]

so what your basically trying to theorise, is that the nebula is the 'crab nebula'? however, to contradict this, the GTVA would have surely realised this from astrolgical co-ordinates when they were able to get a bearing....also you forget that the GTVA beleive they were in another galaxy and had 'travlled firther than any other terran'

[Ghostavo]

They were not in another galaxy, but they travelled farther than any other terran.

[Goober5000]

1) We're saying that the nebula could be either the Crab Nebula or the Lupus Nebula.
2) Who says the GTVA ever tried to get a bearing?  They never told us what the binary system was.  And if they tried to get a bearing in the nebula, they'd have to first figure out how to see through it.
3) They had travelled farther than any other Terrans, yes, but it never says they left the galaxy.

[dan87uk]

ok ok point taken. i wasn't disagreeing, i was just...errr adding further speculation .....

lol it does make an interesting concept thought doesnt it, saying that the shivans detroyed a star and it was recorded in human history without even realising it

Edit : i obviously dont mean in reality, i mean in FS terms before anyone thinks iv lost my mind or a mental patient (well im not one yet anyway )

[NGTM-1R]

Originally posted by Ghostavo


Except that in the endgame cutscene there isn't anything left of the star, and supernovas don't leave cores behind, what's left is either a white dwarf, neutron star or pulsar, or black hole...

First, are you (all of you) watching the same cutscene I am? There's this, you know, GIANT BRIGHT LIGHT that washes out any view of the remains of the Capella star. You can't say there isn't anything left, because you can't see to tell.

Second, what did you think white dwarves, neutron stars, and black holes were? They're the core of the star.

Third, there is a type of supernova that will leave nothing behind. However, it requires a binary system with a white dwarf.

I find it entirely possible the Knossos could have survived a supernova. The general wisdom regarding the location of jump nodes (with some exceptions) places them towards the edge of a system, and the Knossos proved itself incredibly resiliant. A meson bomb, point-blank, and a supernova shockwave at nine or ten Astronomical Units are probably not all that different in terms of damage.

The real mystery about the Capella supernova is that it was two-stage.

[dan87uk]

maybe we're all insane! maybe we'l all turn on each other and kill each other because we dont agree on theories before the shivans do it for us!! maybe we're all right and we're all wrong ........im not mad

[Ghostavo]

Originally posted by ngtm1r


First, are you (all of you) watching the same cutscene I am? There's this, you know, GIANT BRIGHT LIGHT that washes out any view of the remains of the Capella star. You can't say there isn't anything left, because you can't see to tell.

Second, what did you think white dwarves, neutron stars, and black holes were? They're the core of the star.

Third, there is a type of supernova that will leave nothing behind. However, it requires a binary system with a white dwarf.

I find it entirely possible the Knossos could have survived a supernova. The general wisdom regarding the location of jump nodes (with some exceptions) places them towards the edge of a system, and the Knossos proved itself incredibly resiliant. A meson bomb, point-blank, and a supernova shockwave at nine or ten Astronomical Units are probably not all that different in terms of damage.

The real mystery about the Capella supernova is that it was two-stage.

Watch frame by frame the cutscene, you will see (rather pixelized) nothing being left. Of course it could leave a black hole or something incredibly small to remain undetected, but it is unlikely, I will try to get a screen posted.

A white dwarf, neutron star or black hole were the core of the star but not anymore, were is the key word.

Then you are talking about a nova, not a supernova, because a supernova always, always creates a new star (black holes being stars also).

EDIT:
A meson bomb at point blank and a supernova have very diferent damage values, the supernova vaporised (not destroyed, vaporised) both corvettes shown in the cutscene, the meson bomb couldn't do this to fighters (possibly engine limitation, but still).

The supernova in two stage is intriguing, I grant you that, as I would have figured many more stages than just two.

Here are 3 screens of the event, they are rather pixelised so I ask anyone who has FS2 installed (I don't have at the moment) if they could take a few shots of the supernova scenes I would be grateful.

[NGTM-1R]

I see a big white light with a slight bludge in the middle...which would actually make it more likely, not less, that it left something.

Originally posted by Ghostavo

Then you are talking about a nova, not a supernova, because a supernova always, always creates a new star (black holes being stars also).

No, actually I'm not. For your reading pleasure and enlightment, the Type Ia supernova: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/universe/supernova1a_nf_05.html

I would have quoted my Astronomy textbook as well, but I don't have it handy.

Hey, Goober? Write off the Type Ia supernova...they're distingushed by a lack of hydrogen lines in their spectra. A normal star would still display these.

[Ghostavo]

A black hole is out of the question, unless again V screwed up, if a black hole is indeed there, you wouldn't see any light coming from the proximity of it, if it's anything else non-black holish it's a bit small and too eliptical, don't you think?

Also about the supernova Ia type, it leaves a new celestial body.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supernova

The theory of these type of supernovae is similar to that of novae, in which a white dwarf accretes matter more slowly and does not reach the Chandrasekhar limit. In the case of a nova, the infalling matter causes a fusion reaction of material near its surface but does not cause the star to collapse.

Note that a nova does not cause the star to collapse, while the supernova does, and therefore, creates a new celestial body.

[dan87uk]

since the CGI is inconclusive we cant tell

[Jal-18]

If the Capella supernova formed a black hole, we still wouldn't know.  It's not like the things going to be formed in 3 seconds, eh?

[FireCrack]

And even if it was, theres all that explosion in the way.

[Ghostavo]

It would still create suficient gravitational pull to stop the light from the shockwave which is going in the oposite direction to reach the hypotetical observer, or not?