[Lightspeed]

They do occupy [whole] systems, but not whole systems

Do I smell a contradiction there (systems = whole systems)?

There is a difference between taking control of the jumpnodes and controlling the system.

[Goober5000]

Originally posted by Lightspeed
Do I smell a contradiction there (systems = whole systems)?

There is a difference between taking control of the jumpnodes and controlling the system.

Er...

If you control all the entrances and exits to the system, then you control the system.  Do you not?

[FireCrack]

If your in your kitchen you occupy your house. You cant occupy the kitchen but not the house.

And as goober said in his misordered post.

[phatosealpha]

It is usually pretty signifigant to make note of context when arguing about word usage.  Occupied, in the context being used here, is fairly clearly refering to the millitary usage of the term, not the common usage of the term.  The shivans occupy systems in the common sense, but not in the military sense, as they don't take control over planets or resources or populations.  A force needs to more then just powerful and there to be an occupying force.

Nor does controlling all entrances and exits to a place mean you control the place.  If I had quite firm control over all the entrances to exits to my pants, but there were three dozen angry wasps in them, in control would not be the words I'd use to describe my situation.  



As for the rest....ah, who knows.  We don't have any confirmable data on the shivans actual total military or industrial strength, and any attempts to apply logic to the shivans are doomed to failure.

[Lightspeed]

Originally posted by High Max

Actually, age and time is relevent. By knowing how long the Shivans have been in existance, let alone being a space-faring race, one can then accurately guess the potential size and power of the Shivans entire arsenal. Not only this, I'm probably not alone when I say that I'm interested in knowing how long the Shivans have been a space- faring race. Bosch says, "what if there have been countless races, stretching back into infinity, and like the 9 cities of Troy, each were built over the rubble of the one that came before. Each, annihilated by the Shivans."

Bosch is a very clever mind. Insane, but intelligent. You still think along a wrong line. Age and time have absolutely no importance, for they have absolutely no meaning when talking about the Shivans. Bosch maybe doesn't even suspect how close his comment is to truth.

 

However I don't believe that the Shivans are as old as time. Obviously, the Shivans were constructed by another species and we all know that no matter how large the arsenal may appear, all have limits. Meaning that even the Shivans have a limited number of constructions. Perhaps Shivan space surrounds their creators' space. You never know. A symptom of a bigger problem. Also, it says in the tech database that Shivans were likely constructed be another entity.

Shivans are not as old as time. Simply because the usage of the word "time" when we speak about Shivans, has, in itself no meaning.  The Shivans were not constructed by any other species; rather they're a cybernetically "modified" living entity. The number of Shivans, as you'd describe it is, of course, limited (or they'd fill the whole universe, hmm?). The Shivans are not surrounding any space, because simply, they don't care for systems and planets, hence do not occupy space as such. If you study the game content closely, you'll notice that this claim about the Shivans being constructed is not made until FS2. The GTVA has a very VERY bad knowledge about Shivans, or even the Great War. What little knowledge had been gathered about the Shivans got lost in the Hades Rebellion. However, if you want to put it this way, Shivans are a symptom of a bigger problem, yes.

It is usually pretty signifigant to make note of context when arguing about word usage. Occupied, in the context being used here, is fairly clearly refering to the millitary usage of the term, not the common usage of the term. The shivans occupy systems in the common sense, but not in the military sense, as they don't take control over planets or resources or populations. A force needs to more then just powerful and there to be an occupying force.

Bingo. Shivans do not control systems. Controlling systems means actually covering the area, making it important to have installations or planets under control, while taking control of the jumpnodes merely requires a few ships/blockades among the nodes. Now imagine the size of an average system and think about how "controlled" it is.

 

As for the rest....ah, who knows. We don't have any confirmable data on the shivans actual total military or industrial strength, and any attempts to apply logic to the shivans are doomed to failure.

Any attempts to apply logic from a human point of view, yes.

[Taristin]

That's something that has confuzzled me for a little while. If the shivans have no interest in planets, or systems, why on earth did they Glass Vasuda Prime?

Were the Vasudans experimenting with Subspace weaponry?

[phatosealpha]

The shivan's weren't interested in Vasudan prime - but they were real, real interested in killing all the Vasudans.

[pyro-manic]

They kill off any species advanced enough to use subspace, isn't that right? Vasudans had suspace tech, so they tried to wipe them out. Same happened to the Ancients, and the Lucy was on it's way to do the same to Earth.

Or you could think about the Reciprocity story - that there was something on Vasuda Prime that they had to destroy, and there is still something on Earth because the Lucifer failed. Whether or not it's beasties ramains to be seen...

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by pyro-manic
They kill off any species advanced enough to use subspace, isn't that right? Vasudans had suspace tech, so they tried to wipe them out. Same happened to the Ancients, and the Lucy was on it's way to do the same to Earth.

Or you could think about the Reciprocity story - that there was something on Vasuda Prime that they had to destroy, and there is still something on Earth because the Lucifer failed. Whether or not it's beasties ramains to be seen...

EDIT: bollocky-bollocks, stupid time dilation

To be fair, the Reci story was stupid in that respect.... the Nightmares would have just wiped out all life on said planets, so I needed to work in a bit of iffy storylining to explain why they hadn't.

That whole aspect was to explain the attacks as being part of the war vs the nightmares, really.... oh, and the Lucifer was heading for Mars, not Earth.  One Reci mission was intended to take place in the Marianas trench before a Nightmare ship erupted from it.

[TrashMan]

Originally posted by phatosealpha
It is usually pretty signifigant to make note of context when arguing about word usage.  Occupied, in the context being used here, is fairly clearly refering to the millitary usage of the term, not the common usage of the term.  The shivans occupy systems in the common sense, but not in the military sense, as they don't take control over planets or resources or populations.  A force needs to more then just powerful and there to be an occupying force.

Nor does controlling all entrances and exits to a place mean you control the place.  If I had quite firm control over all the entrances to exits to my pants, but there were three dozen angry wasps in them, in control would not be the words I'd use to describe my situation.  

If you have a dozen Sathanases (that chrused any ship they see) controling all the nodes in the system then you ARE in fact controling the system.
What can the few misely ships that are left in it (IF there are any left) or hte loca lpopulace do? If you are powerless and at the mercy of the enemy who keeps you loked in your house, then he IS controling your house..

[Lightspeed]

Originally posted by Raa
That's something that has confuzzled me for a little while. If the shivans have no interest in planets, or systems, why on earth did they Glass Vasuda Prime?

Think of the best way to shatter a species' fighting spirit and hopes.

Maybe the Shivans are a weapon created by another entity and the guardians of this species and are the first line of defense and offense for this almighty unknown species. You never know, maybe they were constructed by another entity. If this was true, it would make the FS2 storyline even more interesting, not to mention giving the FS series the ability to continue for a long time. If the Shivans were completely wiped out, then maybe the GTVA could fight the creators, if the Shivans have creators. It would probably take place in the 2600's though and if they kept making FS games then it would probably be in FS5 or 6.

Sorry, but no. Theories like this one have been discussed over and over again, in fact, so often it isn't even funny anymore.

If you have a dozen Sathanases (that chrused any ship they see) controling all the nodes in the system then you ARE in fact controling the system.

When, pray-tell, have you ever seen one of those Sathanii guarding a node, or even attacking anything? They serve only one single purpose there, which you can watch in the ending cinematics.

[Taristin]

Originally posted by Lightspeed


Think of the best way to shatter a species' fighting spirit and hopes.

 
 

Yes, but that only strengthened their hatred for the Shivans in the second great war. Hell, while the terran arm of the GTVA was off killing itself, the Vasudans were the ones holding the Shivans at bay in the Nebula. Where they not?

[Liberator]

It has been stated, by , that the Shivans are a symtom of a larger problem.

FS3 was supposed to be about the GTVA finding out what this problem is.

I'm of the opinion, personally, that the Shivans killed Capella to protect the GTVA from another, greater darkness that they are combating is the space beyond the nebula and that binary system from "Into the Lion's Den".

[Lightspeed]

Originally posted by Raa


Yes, but that only strengthened their hatred for the Shivans in the second great war. Hell, while the terran arm of the GTVA was off killing itself, the Vasudans were the ones holding the Shivans at bay in the Nebula. Where they not?

Yes, yes it did. However, that's actually 32 years later. Look at the Vasudans right after Vasuda Prime got attacked. Depression and pain always come first. Only then, hatred and revenge will eventually gain power.

@Liberator: Yes, the Shivans are the symptom of a "bigger problem". However, most people jump to the conclusion it must be a fourth species. Think about how the game is called - and how (if)  it relates to the plot.

[willy_principal]

Free-Space..two words......hmm..............hm............no idea....
They are fighting to have more............free space?..........................
dumb idea...........
Freespace is subspace, right?....then................
It's supposed that the shivans are sensitive to the subspace (or something)........then................may be when we jump through the subspace.........the shivans might feel pain....................
naahh......other dumb idea...

EDIT: the shivans are a sympton of a "larger" or "bigger" problem? (what are the exact words of V?)
well well, letsee...
a sympton is something that indicates a disease...
...then, who or what is sick???......the subspace is sick because, us, the Ancients???.......i think that idea is too simple, there must be something else that we missed.................
then, why the shivans seem to be playing with us?....why not to obliterate us in one strike..................like the Ancients....?

[Lightspeed]

Freespace, one word, is another name for subspace, that's correct.

[Liberator]

So what you're say Lightspeed is that the Shivan are defending their territory just like the GTVA is defending it's territory?  That's too easy and makes the Shivans into less of a threat.  They attacked us remember?

The Shivans could be a race of Von Neuman(self replicating) type machines who were tasked with protecting their creator's area of space.  But in their diligence, they either killed their masters accidentally or they were wiped out by a plague of some kind and the Shivans are now unknowingliy guarding a bunch of tomb worlds.

[TrashMan]

Originally posted by Lightspeed
When, pray-tell, have you ever seen one of those Sathanii guarding a node, or even attacking anything? They serve only one single purpose there, which you can watch in the ending cinematics.

that was just an example. It doesn't have tobe a fleet of Sathanii. It can very well be Ravans or whatever.

[Charismatic]

Ok ok ok. Liberator: Im interested in your thoughts. Thats interesting. The shivans protect us. But that dosent concur with Ross 128, or Vasuda Prime. Or either great war. Shivans are assholes, they dont care who uses subspace.

Freespace- many races fight for the right of space.

Shivans kicked our asses and could have killed us off. They have a nack fo going after the Population of the Home Planets.
-How did they know about Vaduda Prime, or Sol? Maby they have been there before.

If the Ancieents knew about how to stop the Lucy, then why didnt they stop it.
How did they know, if they had not killed a Lucy before.
Why did A. not kill off S.?

Id like to beleive the S. are protecting us, but why the hell did they kick our asses? After the first GW. they came Back. Why?
(I have a ton of stuff to say, forgot most of it, lol)

What is the greator problem then the Shivans? Have any statments or insights, Lib?

Shivans are very old and could have killed us maby. Otherwise us with our knoloage did hold them off 2 GW's.
Maby S. kill anyone off, who knows how to stop them. Maby A. knew more about the S. and their weaknesses, then was given or disvovered.

I tink the S were created by the A or some other race. Theirs a bigger race out there too, maby thaz why the S didnt wipe us out, and only spared a Lucy and a sathii  were spared for  ashort time, leased, to cauze a Supernova, then had to return. Why they didnt kill us, they at war with the bigger prob.?

[Charismatic]

Cant deleite this for some reason.