[Hippo]

thats anything from 2+(0.1x10^infinate) to 4-(0.1x10^infinate)... You have to specify whole number


*goes back to avoiding these topics*

[KappaWing]

Doesen't an integer refer to a whole number?
Well, if it doesen't then I have no other choice...

Arggg! Alright then! I shall proclaim that which cannot be expressed in any other way;

Freespace 3! Freespace 3! Freespace 3!

*Runs away and hides in corner*

[TrashMan]

Originally posted by KappaWing
It doesent bother them at all actually. IMHO Shivan ships are made out of artificially grown material that only melts at extremely high temperatures (more than that of a star). This could be true bacause there is no canon evidence of Shivans ever having a temperature tolerance limit. The Shivan bodies themselves are made out of elements unknown to Terrans or Vasudans. Obviously if a GTVA vessel approached this central installation, it would surley melt due to the temperatures.

There is canon evidence, however, of Shivan bodies and Shivan alloys being made out of highly advanced material.

If you believe the Shivan Manefesto story, there is even furher evidence to back this up. The fact that Shivans come from subspace which there is no temperature at all explains why temperature means nothing to them or their materials which they grow.

[V] never gave any hint at what a Shivan home system may be like, so this is all open to speculation.

Excuse me...but are you clinicly insane? where do you get this stuff?

First of all, the Shivan manifesto isn't cannon... Only thing cannon about shivans is what is written in the tech room and what you see in the movies.

Now read this - NOTHING...NOTHING can stay in solid state when exposed to that temperature...
Shivans ships aren't organic - this we know, since you flew Dragons and Maras outfitted with terrna tech.
Secondly, shivan bodies aren't made of unknown materials or alloys...

It's tru that [V] told us nothing of shivan origin...perhaps they don't even havea home system..

But please, think before you post such....redicolous theories...

[Kie99]

Originally posted by TrashMan

Now read this - NOTHING...NOTHING can stay in solid state when exposed to that temperature...
Shivans ships aren't organic - this we know, since you flew Dragons and Maras outfitted with terrna tech.
Secondly, shivan bodies aren't made of unknown materials or alloys...

Perhaps the Lucifer could, and you have no basis for this statement: "shivan bodies aren't made of unknown materials or alloys..."

[comic]

If they can wistand temperatures greater than a star then they can clearly walk through beam cannons with out noticing that they are bing fired at!

My pet theory is that the SV's are involved in a much bigger war. Also i dont think the ancients would have been a push over or even poorly armed. To an extent you are as well armed as tech allows even if you dont actualy develope the wepons.

For examle the ancients were clearly hugely advanced in subspace so could probably use this to their advantage for example using  weapons that cause small subspace vorticies ripping chunks of the oposing vessel into subspace while leaving the rest there.  Conseptualy not imposible judging by the Knossos tech base.  Also the tech you use in your car is low compared to the army yes, so the knossos could have been so common in the ancient empire that they were centuries behind their actual tech level, especialy if the shievens saw no point in destroying them.

The Knossos could have been so common the shieves where satisfied with the death of the race not bothering to rip up every yard of road that race put down metaphoricaly.

This leads to the possiblity that the shievens are able to taylor their ships and weapons to the target. If the Lucifer was all powerfull against the ancients subspace tech then maybe it was vulnerable to our "lower" tech.  Thus they send in better armed but  less unneccesarily armoured ships ie. the Sahs to wipe us out and not give us the advantage of taking appart or capturing tech that would give us a desisive advantage by combing our tech with ancient.

Thats my two cents.

[KappaWing]

Shivan ships ARE organic. They are grown at a central location which also serves to be the home of the hive mind.

After Shivan ships have grown fully, they are fitted with mechanized subsystem parts.

The reason command didn't think that these ships were alive is due to one simple theory: integration. When a Shivan is killed or removed from his vessel, the vessel dies because the Shivan is no longer supplying it with life energy. The GTVA only fitted the ships AFTER the Shivan in the cockpit was removed, so to the GTVA, the Dragon or Mara was just a big lump of unidentifed material, which the GTVA studied and learned how to enhance it.

I know the Shivan Manefesto isn't cannon but there is NO evidence anywhere to prove that Shivans or their ORGANIC ships have a melting point. Shivans are so technologically advanced that they probably engineered themselves & their ships to be immune to heat. Shivans do stuff like that.

This post was origionally gonna be a lot longer but damn AOL had a fatal error just as I hit "submit reply".

So HA!

Edit-

If they can wistand temperatures greater than a star then they can clearly walk through beam cannons with out noticing that they are bing fired at!

Beams are not heat based weapons. They are energy based weapons designed to rip apart atoms and such.

[comic]

No melting point?  Shurly that defies the basic laws of physics.

I mean give something enough energy and eventualy the atomic bonds will break thats just basic physics that nomatter how advanced you cant get arround.  

and also in the game we see a melted cruser and corrvet both severaly damged and melted looking when cappela goes up.

also if you are impervious to temperature you can logicaly follow that yo are impervious to any energy changes including kinetic as your atomic bonds are infinite therfore the GTVA would be unable to even scratch the SV's.

Also if you assume the armour is added on how do you cut and from something with infinite bond strength.

If you asume it is grown then it is organic and has to have a temp limate for survival.

And if we are going down the road of Uber tech then it would probably be easier to phase your ship partialy into subspace and thus render realspace weapons usles for a fraction of a second the fully phase back into reall space and whoop ass.

Also if you have the tech to make your ships impervious (see points above!!!!) then you would be at a tech level so far in advance of the GTVA's then one fighter would probably be enough to kill them all let alone a fleet.

[KappaWing]

It doesent bother them at all actually. IMHO Shivan ships are made out of artificially grown material that only melts at extremely high temperatures (more than that of a star).

They have melting points, just more than that of a star's temp. (yeah, they are really high. ) Notice i said "really high", not that they have no melting point. That would be illogical.

And on Capella...
Melted looking? I always thought it was the pre-Shockwave that messed up the ships with sheer force. The heat must arrive after the second shockwave because the heat can only occur after the star explodes...
Let's say for a moment that you're right and the Shivan ship DID melt. That is because first the shockwave hit and severley messed up the material's inner structure. The ship would have melted after that because the material was screwed with by the initial shockwave.

Shivan technology (along with their armada) is vast but not infinite. It would take a higher level of tech to make ships partially resistant to energy than to make them partially resistant to heat. Their development of Shields shows that they have expertise in that area.

If you asume it is grown then it is organic and has to have a temp limate for survival.

As mentioned earlier in this post, it does have a limit which is higher than that of a star. Shivans can do that because it's their artificially engineered life form.

I never said that they were "impervious", just "highly resistant". When I said "immune to heat" I meant the heat of a star, not heat in general. In order to melt a shivan ship, I'm guessig you would need heat that can be found in the core of a star, but a surface installation would be able to withstand such heat.

-Edit
That's pretty much what I meant to say in the previous post before AOL screwed me.

[comic]

aghhhh

so you are saying beams are hotter or at least as hot as the center of a star?  

Also Heat is a measure of energy. It is simply the total internal kinetic energy possesed by a mass.

So if they could wistand huge (now we have found that energy of a mass is heat) energies then they could withstand any kinetic or thermal radiation enrgy inputs upto their limate.

Also the ammount of energy you can absorb is limated by the strength of the atmoic foces holding
1) the molecules to gether
2) the atoms in the molecules together
3) the sub atomic particals together

And no matter how advanced you are there are physical limates on these factors that you can not alter. Its a simple matter of bonding and the weak and the strong nuclear forces.  

Also just because they are SV's and they "grow" thier ships it does not mean they can alter the laws of physics.

[mrduckman]

I see two things about the shivans:

1) A failure to communicate. Seems none but Adm. Bosch was able to or ever wished to.
2) The shivans' attacks would mean an attempt to defend. It might be possible that the Ancients were similar or far superior than the shivans. No wonder why the Shivans advanced so much in subspace.

[KappaWing]

The Shivans have altered the laws of physics before! Using some subspace wave to destroy a star is definatley not within the laws of physics.

And no matter how advanced you are there are physical limates on these factors that you can not alter. Its a simple matter of bonding and the weak and the strong nuclear forces.

Simple! Use magic!
ummmmm.... I'm getting a tad too desperate there. I think it's time I abandoned my theory.

I shall now compose a new theory about the Shivans' home system, one with more scientific basis and less imagination.

[KappaWing]

Ahh... I got one!

Theory #2
Deep within Shivan territory lies a black hole, one of the most enigmatic phenomena known to man. A force so powerful that It can only be tamed by the Shivans!!!

Deep within the home system of the Shivans.....

There is a gigantic Shivan installation built around this black hole. It is basically a large, red-and-black pulsating sphere. The Shivans invented technology where their ships can counteract gravity by having the area immediatley around their ships exist in the Subspace plane as well as the Universe. So therefore, they are immune to gravity but they lose their shields. (This technology can be turned on and off at will of the Shivans.) Sprouting from this sphere are millions of giant protruding arms, each with crystalline blobs at the end. Some are over 400 kilometers long while some are a mere 10 meters long. The blobs slowly take shape over time and form into genetically engineered spacecraft. The Spherical installation can collect the infinite amount of energy offered by the black hole to constantly produce these ships. Once the Ships are fully grown, they are guided into a space yard where they are fitted with mechanized subsystems and electronic parts. Shivans are implanted and integrated into these vessels for the remainder of their lifetime.

Then blah blah blah about the giant ships patrolling the surrounding systems which I explained earlier in this thread.

So there you go. At least it's better than my last theory.

[comic]

Originally posted by mrduckman

2) The shivans' attacks would mean an attempt to defend. It might be possible that the Ancients were similar or far superior than the shivans. No wonder why the Shivans advanced so much in subspace. [/B]

I like the idea. Another thought, Maybe the ancients were far superior and still are it is possible that of an empir of that size areas were cut of and thought that all was lost (our galactic are where our ancient info comes from).  And thus the shievens are still engaged in a much larger war where we are insignifi**** but annoying enough to pose a threat and therfore to be whiped out. Also maybe the SV's see some advantage in our spacial are Cappella??? And simply did not see this untill we opened the knossos and reminded them?

It could be that we are in an effective nomans land between the "ancients" that survived and are still at war with the SV's and that destroying us gives them an advantage, maybe an excuse to move into teritory maked as a nutral zone and set up base.  

It would be nise to think that something could scare SV's though? lol

[mrduckman]

I'd say that there isn't a law that wasn't altered before, anyway.
Besides, there are things we don't know and can't even begin to understand.

Antimatter is quite new. Artificial gravity, same thing..
Now, do we know subspace for real?

Originally posted by KappaWing
The Shivans have altered the laws of physics before! Using some subspace wave to destroy a star is definatley not within the laws of physics.



Simple! Use magic!
ummmmm.... I'm getting a tad too desperate there. I think it's time I abandoned my theory.

I shall now compose a new theory about the Shivans' home system, one with more scientific basis and less imagination.

[FireCrack]

Originally posted by Hippo
thats anything from 2+(0.1x10^infinate) to 4-(0.1x10^infinate)... You have to specify whole number


*goes back to avoiding these topics*

umm... m'm prteety sure you couldnt be more wrong if you tried.

[TrashMan]

You still favor organic ships? I didn't see any shivan ship bleed whan you shoot him...

[Kie99]

Organic =/= Bleeds

[KappaWing]

I mean organic life as in a plant. AFAIK, plant's don't bleed either!

[Ghostavo]

*throws acid at shivans ships*

That'll get them bastards

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by TrashMan
You still favor organic ships? I didn't see any shivan ship bleed whan you shoot him...

Organic ships aren't necessarily alive, of course; just grown.

But I've never seen any canon evidence of Shivan vessels being organic in nature; including Hallfight.  Shivan individuals are, but that's scarely evidence - by the same reckoning human ships can be made of skin and cloth.

What I'm wondering is, is this - http://dynamic3.gamespy.com/~freespace/fsdoc/index.php?pagename=Shivans - bit of the Wiki all canon (particularly the 'technology' part).  I'm not sure it is.