[NGTM-1R]

Originally posted by KappaWing
They are perfectly capable of scanning and capturing, but why mess around when you could just send in a Sathanas fleet to blast away the GTVA quickly and efficiently?

Because it's not efficent to use all 80+ Sathanas juggernauts? If they were just out to kill the GTVA, they only would have needed 5 or so for a swift, decisive, and assured victory.

I've already shown that the GTVA has outstripped the Shivans in the realm of fighter-based technology. Go look at the Eryines. One of them can take down a wing of Maras all by itself. The GTVA can't beat the Shivans...but the Shivans ought to start worrying a bit. If the GTVA can build a fighter so superior that a single one can defeat a wing of Shivan fighters, or worse, two or three unescorted cruisers, then it's time to start worrying about them.

[aldo_14]

You assume the Shivans even care about fighters & carriers beyond using them for cannon fodder, though.  They sure as hell didn't care about anything but the Saths in Capella (assuming they intended to nova the star in the first place).

[KappaWing]

Because it's not efficent to use all 80+ Sathanas juggernauts? If they were just out to kill the GTVA, they only would have needed 5 or so for a swift, decisive, and assured victory.

They needed 80 for the experiment to work, which I talked about earlier. Besides, the Shivans don't know exactly how large the fleet is. If the GTVA has been concentrating every single resource and citizen to build a massive warship fleet, then they could have built up to 10 Colossus-Class Warships.

I've already shown that the GTVA has outstripped the Shivans in the realm of fighter-based technology. Go look at the Eryines. One of them can take down a wing of Maras all by itself. The GTVA can't beat the Shivans...but the Shivans ought to start worrying a bit. If the GTVA can build a fighter so superior that a single one can defeat a wing of Shivan fighters, or worse, two or three unescorted cruisers, then it's time to start worrying about them.

What difficulty are you playing on? Very easy? Freespace is meant to be played on Normal to Hard difficulty. In this mode, an Erinyes matches a Mara 1 to 1.

Besides, the GTVA probably hasen't even SEEN the best Shivan fighter yet. For all we know, the Mara, Astaroth, Aeshma, etc. could ALL have a superior replacement that the Shivans have either kept to guard their home systems (see my theory earlier), or don't want to risk the GTVA capturing it.

Remember, the system beyond GD and the Binary System (lions den) are all frontier worlds for the Shivans, and frontier systems have more primitive technology, where the biggest guns are swarming around the central systems.

For example, the deployment of the Nephilim, Astaroth, and Mara are signs that the Shivans are actually starting to take the GTVA seriuously, but not seriously enough to send in the best warships and fighters/bombers.

[karajorma]

Originally posted by ngtm1r
Still, if you consider that pretty much every animal on Earth with a significantly sized brain exhibits a fear response of some sort, then I don't find it all that difficult to believe that the ability to fear would be a universal rule.

Do I believe that the Shivans could feel fear. Yes. Why not. The Vasudans certainly do.

Do I believe that the Shivans have to be able to feel fear. Never in a million years.

You point to the fact that all of the smarter animals on Earth feel fear but failed to consider the fact that they all share a common ancestor.

It's also worth pointing out that even if the shivans did have fear when they evolved there's no reason that they still have it. A race that is willing to become cybernetic probably has no problem with removing other defects at the genetic level. The same is true if the shivans were created by something else.

Originally posted by StratComm
It's canonically the leading theory, supported by the behavior of the Shivan fleet after the destruction of the Lucifer. Beyond that, it's all conjecture.

To be honest I'd say that that was better evidence for the existance of a leadership caste rather than a hive mind. If the Lucifer was the brain of a hive mind you'd pretty much expect the body to fall over dead once it was destroyed.

The fact that the shivans still acted as a group even if highly disorganised shows that they were still capable of low level organisation even without the Lucifer. With a hive mind the shivans probably wouldn't be capable of that kind of organisation as all such functions would have gone through the brain. I'd have expected the shivans to have acted at random (or at least with random hostility).

[KappaWing]

The Lucifer isn't the core of the hive mind, just a sub hive mind off of the main central hive mind, that is why the Lucifer was so important, but it also explains why the Shivans came back after 32 years; the main hive was still intact.

The main hive mind exists in the Sphere that I explained earlier. The main hive mind communicates to lesser hive minds (such as the one housed in the Lucifer) for battlegroups extremely far away from the Shivan home system. Once the Lucifer was destroyed, the Shivans took orders from higher up in the Hive Mind chain, which would be the main hive mind itself. That hive mind was so far away that the Shivans couldent communicate effectively with it. That explains why they were disorganized but it also explains why they weren't totally random.

[karajorma]

Doesn't explain why the Shivans completely ignored the GTVA for 32 years though.

Besides the back of the FS2 box does quite clearly state that the Shivans are wondering what happened to their scouting party. No idea how canon that is but it does suggest that the Shivans didn't know what had happened to the Lucifer.

[KappaWing]

Before the Lucifer left, the Shivans probably told them to report back in a few years. When they didn't, the Shivans assumed their 'scouting party' or whatever the Lucifer Fleet was, got in trouble. Besides, that old 'Ross 128 - Shivan System 'node was probably unstable. The Shivans had to snatch the window of oppurtunity to squeeze their LF through while they still could. The Main hive probably detected the loss of the Sub hive (Lucifer) long before the period was up, but they couldent send in more forces because the 'Ross 128 - Shivan System' node completley collapsed (due to natural phenomena). And remember, it was Admiral Bosch who led the Shivans to Allied space by activating the Knossos.

[NGTM-1R]

Originally posted by KappaWing
What difficulty are you playing on? Very easy? Freespace is meant to be played on Normal to Hard difficulty. In this mode, an Erinyes matches a Mara 1 to 1.

I play on normal, and I've seen a wingman of mine (not even me, an AI-controlled wingman) take down four Maras with ease. On normal I can take down whole 18-ship squadrons of Maras. So, the question becomes, what difficulty are you playing at?

Besides, look at the raw numbers in the table entries. The Eryines is easily better in every significant area save speed without the AB on and missile capacity. Eight guns to four, thicker armor, better shielding, equal or better speed on burner, better manuverablity. There is no Shivan fighter that can stand up to the Eryines one-on-one when an AI pilot is behind the controls of each.

As for the cruisers...Maxim. Hell, you could blast unescorted Shivan cruisers all day and not get a scratch.

Originally posted by KappaWing

Besides, the GTVA probably hasen't even SEEN the best Shivan fighter yet. For all we know, the Mara, Astaroth, Aeshma, etc. could ALL have a superior replacement that the Shivans have either kept to guard their home systems (see my theory earlier), or don't want to risk the GTVA capturing it.

There is no canon evidence for different ship types with vastly better or vastly different abilities from those that we know of. Therefore the existance of such ships is purely speculative, and must bow to the existance of ships that can be found in ships.tbl.

Originally posted by KappaWing

Remember, the system beyond GD and the Binary System (lions den) are all frontier worlds for the Shivans, and frontier systems have more primitive technology, where the biggest guns are swarming around the central systems.

Are you sure? Really, really sure? After all, we've never seen a Shivan installation, they seem to be specially adapted for life in zero-gee, and they show no interest in planets or even spaceborne resources like asteroid fields. The only resourcing operation of the Shivans we've ever seen was a collection of gas miners. They might not even have core systems, but instead be nomadic or semi-nomadic.

Also, the logic behind holding your big guns back is faulty, particularly since the Shivans seem to be a very aggressive civilization. Reserve units are composed of older equipment, correct? Reserve units are what you find at home. New units are what you find out at the pointy end of the stick on the frontier, because that's where the new units are needed.

Originally posted by KappaWing

For example, the deployment of the Nephilim, Astaroth, and Mara are signs that the Shivans are actually starting to take the GTVA seriuously, but not seriously enough to send in the best warships and fighters/bombers.

You draw a lot from the Nahema's tech room entry, and conveniently ignore that it also mentions the ship could be simply brand-new instead.

[karajorma]

Originally posted by KappaWing
Before the Lucifer left, the Shivans probably told them to report back in a few years. When they didn't, the Shivans assumed their 'scouting party' or whatever the Lucifer Fleet was, got in trouble.  

That completely contradicts your  theory that the main hive mind was controlling the remaining Shivan forces after the destruction of the Lucifer.

If they suddenly had to take over control of the remaining elements of the lucifer fleet they must have instantly been aware of the destruction of the Lucifer.

Originally posted by KappaWing
Besides, that old 'Ross 128 - Shivan System 'node was probably unstable. The Shivans had to snatch the window of oppurtunity to squeeze their LF through while they still could. The Main hive probably detected the loss of the Sub hive (Lucifer) long before the period was up, but they couldent send in more forces because the 'Ross 128 - Shivan System' node completley collapsed (due to natural phenomena). And remember, it was Admiral Bosch who led the Shivans to Allied space by activating the Knossos.

Maybe. That's all complete supposition though. Not a shred of evidence to support it. Besides it still doesn't cover that line about the Shivans wondering what happened to the scouts. They would have known exactly what happened to them. They would have just been unable to do anything about it until Bosch opened the portal.

[KappaWing]

I play on normal, and I've seen a wingman of mine (not even me, an AI-controlled wingman) take down four Maras with ease. On normal I can take down whole 18-ship squadrons of Maras. So, the question becomes, what difficulty are you playing at?

Besides, look at the raw numbers in the table entries. The Eryines is easily better in every significant area save speed without the AB on and missile capacity. Eight guns to four, thicker armor, better shielding, equal or better speed on burner, better manuverablity. There is no Shivan fighter that can stand up to the Eryines one-on-one when an AI pilot is behind the controls of each.

As for the cruisers...Maxim. Hell, you could blast unescorted Shivan cruisers all day and not get a scratch.

I usually play on normal/hard but I alter the individual AI in Fred so you're probably right there. [V] had to dumb them down a bit to make them beatable, or else the game would be nearly impossible.

Are you sure? Really, really sure? After all, we've never seen a Shivan installation, they seem to be specially adapted for life in zero-gee, and they show no interest in planets or even spaceborne resources like asteroid fields. The only resourcing operation of the Shivans we've ever seen was a collection of gas miners. They might not even have core systems, but instead be nomadic or semi-nomadic.

Also, the logic behind holding your big guns back is faulty, particularly since the Shivans seem to be a very aggressive civilization. Reserve units are composed of older equipment, correct? Reserve units are what you find at home. New units are what you find out at the pointy end of the stick on the frontier, because that's where the new units are needed.

When Petrarch said that the Shivans were 'nomads', that was pure speculation without any factual basis. Their behavior indicated that they are spreading out from their home system and the GTVA is in the systems that the Shivans are trying to spread into.

The reason we never saw any Shivan installations was because we never encroached more than 2 systems in their territory, and their territory may be 100+ systems deep. When I said frontier 'worlds', I meant frontier 'systems'. Sorry about that. I know Shivans don't hang around on planets but as I mentioned earlier they have (0-G) installations in their home systems. They have to command and rally somewhere.

Shivans are agressive, but not rediculously so. I consider the possibility that due to the Shivan's massive empire, they may be fighting battles on multiple fronts simultaniously that the GTVA has no knowlege of, as these Shivan-Other Species battles may be taking place in other galaxies. Shivans send the better units to fight off the more challenging enemies, and they use the GTVA as a way to cleanse their armada of long-outdated ships such as the Sathani while inflicting damage on the GTVA at the same time.

So basically, the best Shivan vessels are at the front lines, but not the lines shared with the GTVA. Shivans probably woulden't employ Terran military tactics anyway.

[aldo_14]

(not @Kara but the posts above)

Um... not to nitpick, but you people do realise that the Shivans might not have territory anyways?

 so whether or not they have reserves or front lines is about as suppositionary as whether they've deployed them or not.  As indeed is the assumption whether or not the Shivans have better ships elsewhere; although natural gameplay progression would dictate they do, becuase what else would be added to FS3?

[KappaWing]

 That completely contradicts your theory that the main hive mind was controlling the remaining Shivan forces after the destruction of the Lucifer.

If they suddenly had to take over control of the remaining elements of the lucifer fleet they must have instantly been aware of the destruction of the Lucifer.

The hive mind is an automatic thing. It took control of the Shivans after the Lucifer got trashed but the return signal was unclear due to the distance. That is why they had the Lucifer in the first place, to relay the transmission.

Maybe. That's all complete supposition though. Not a shred of evidence to support it. Besides it still doesn't cover that line about the Shivans wondering what happened to the scouts. They would have known exactly what happened to them. They would have just been unable to do anything about it until Bosch opened the portal.

Thats exactly what I said!

The Main hive probably detected the loss of the Sub hive (Lucifer) long before the period was up, but they couldent send in more forces because the 'Ross 128 - Shivan System' node completley collapsed (due to natural phenomena).

It was difficult to detect at first, but the Shivans soon assumed that the Lucifer got destroyed due to lack of communication!

The evidence supporting the Ross 128 node collapse lies in the fact that the Shivans never used that node again and GTA couldent pick up the node.

[aldo_14]

Except the Shivans have more than one way into GTVA space, even excluding GD and Ross 128.

[KappaWing]

And what may that be?

[karajorma]

Originally posted by KappaWing
The hive mind is an automatic thing. It took control of the Shivans after the Lucifer got trashed but the return signal was unclear due to the distance. That is why they had the Lucifer in the first place, to relay the transmission.

You're telling me that the hive mind was able to coordinate and plan attacks on GTVA positions without being able to recieve any data on where the GTVA forces were or what they were doing?

That's absolute nonsense.

[aldo_14]

The Shivan attacks in FS1 came from all directions, not just Ross 128.  Including in distant systems such as Ikeya  (IIRC a command brief or techroom entry mentions speculation the Shivans used uncharted unstable nodes); they obviously did not come solely from Ross 128, or they would have quickly found Delta Serpentis and then Sol, instead there was a substantial front coming in from the right side of the node map.

[karajorma]

Originally posted by KappaWing
When Petrarch said that the Shivans were 'nomads', that was pure speculation without any factual basis. Their behavior indicated that they are spreading out from their home system and the GTVA is in the systems that the Shivans are trying to spread into.

And your entire series of posts isn't?

Their behaviour indicated nothing of the sort. If the shivans were indeed spreading outwards they would have seized GTVA space the first time they were there. There was no one to stop them after the ancients were gone after all.

A single demon class destroyer could have held the whole of GTVA space 8000 years ago.

Hell with a transport to rearm it a single Seraphim could prevent the rise of any culture dangerous to the Shivans.

[KappaWing]

That is the reason why they were UNCOORDINATED!!! The Hive mind sent the signal that basically said "kill everyone" so that's what they did. That was why they didn't go bonkers, they were still recieving transmissions from the Main Hive but the Main Hive wasent getting clear readings from Shivans on the other end pertaining to the location of GTVA forces. That's why it sent out the signal to kill without coordination evidenced by the Shivan's lack of co-ordination after the Lucifer was killed!

[aldo_14]

So the Hive mind was able to tell each and every ship to do something, and yet unable to know what they were doing?  How could it contact every ship without knowing that sort of basic information?

[KappaWing]

The Shivan attacks in FS1 came from all directions, not just Ross 128. Including in distant systems such as Ikeya (IIRC a command brief or techroom entry mentions speculation the Shivans used uncharted unstable nodes); they obviously did not come solely from Ross 128, or they would have quickly found Delta Serpentis and then Sol, instead there was a substantial front coming in from the right side of the node map.

Perhaps they ALL came in via R128 and then used unstable nodes from that system to get to Ikeya and other right side systms?

Their behaviour indicated nothing of the sort. If the shivans were indeed spreading outwards they would have seized GTVA space the first time they were there. There was no one to stop them after the ancients were gone after all.

They never detected the GTVA until they used the nodes heavily.  After the Ancients left, the Shivans ran off to kill the Ancients elsewhere, and left what was to become GTVA space neglected.