[AlphaOne]

Actualy there is mention of at least 2 Hecates in the wiki! So that amount to a s**t load of fenrisses and leviathans since I dontt believe they stopped production imediately after the great war.  Having that many Fenrises around sure as hell is usefull now that the GTVA battle fleet wah smashed to pieces. I mean even if they are withdrawn from combat duty they can double as refugee homes medical ships cargo ships u name it. Since i don think the GTVA has that many Argos around to cover the need's . I dont think they imagined they would loose so badly and the destruction of one of their jewel sistems so to speak.

[aldo_14]

Actualy there is mention of at least 2 Hecates in the wiki! So that amount to a s**t load of fenrisses and leviathans

Eh?

[Mars]

Fleet = Battle Group because they're used interchangalbey in the main campagin.

[AlphaOne]

Well during the debate over on the VBB, i believe it was there that the debate took place, there were the arguemnts and it was established that vasudans use the battlegroup description while the terrans used fleet. Also The arguement regarding the fenrisses and the leviathans was based on the fact that there must be at leas 4 cruisers per fleet even moreif you have lets say 3 corvettes in a flleet and at least 2 cruisers per corvette.

Also the fact that Hecates are present in vasudan battlegroups sugests that the terrans actualy have more destroyers then the vasudans . Remember thy dont have the benefit of the old Typhoon class since most of them were unable to mount beam cannons as oposed to the Orion ! Also I would imagine the GTVA building Orions long after the great war to replace theyr depleted fleets. And sisnce the Hecate and not only the Hecate but also the Deimos are new designs we would tend to see a lot more Orion and Deimos then Hecates. But still the Hecates would be built in a reasonable number as to even sugest the phasing out of the Orion class.


I believe that they must have somewhere like 2orions/hecate something like 10 Hecates. Then most of the Production was shifted with the introduction of the Hatsheepsut class of destroyers. I believe they are newer then the Hecates. not by much but by at least 2 or 3 years.


This would sugest they ae able to produce somehting like one destroyer per year.


sure you would tend to say thet that figure is unrealistic sine it took some 20 years to complete the Colie but then again the colie took over 20 yeasr from the anouncement of the project to the actual manufacturing of its shipyards and logistical supoort testing of various sistems and subsitems etc.

[Mars]

Except that the collie is 12X bigger than a Lucifer, which is ~twice the size of an Orion (by voleume) so by my guestimation a destroyer is perfectly capable of being built in a year, and remember, you can make more than one at once.

[AlphaOne]

Thats what i said! I do however believe that mi bad spelling caused yet another miinterpretation! Damn! So can anyone care to guess how many destroyers,corvettes,cruisers the GTVA built in 35 years??

[Mars]

No, I agreed with you, but I was saying it's not hard to belive.

[AlphaOne]

However this would bring in focus yet another question if the GTVA lost only a fraction of its fleet as it is showen in fs2 campaign does this mean it suffered a crusshing defeat of its entire fleets or just the fleets comissioned to fight the shivans.  Since it is obvious that they lost maibe 60-70% of the fleet asigned to fight the shivans i would guess that would amount, acording to what is known to be the losses, to less then 1/3 of its entire fleet. That would mean the GTVA still has a huge flet compared to its actual losses. However I dont believe they are able to organize theyr warships fast enough as to become a serious fleet fast since most of them would be scattered across the entire GTVA controlled space and some of the ships would actuly take week's if not even a month or more to reach the battlefield by which time it would be pointless.

Is that acurate?

Also that would mean that the GTVA is not as badly dammaged as previously believed.

We do know that an amy does not have to be destroyed fo it to lose the war it just has to suffer enough damage as to make the batlle pointless to continue. To be more explicit even if you have a fleet composed of 10 destroyers with wich you go to battle if that army suffers a crushig defeat then the whole war is lost even if you would have another 20 destroyers scattered across a vast distance they would not be able to reinforce the existing battle line fast enough as to mount any decent defensive battle. So the only thing left would actualy be to retreat and hope that the enemy does not reach your home faster then it takes you to gather the reamaining of your forces.

Correct?

A star sistem is quite a big place and you can not expect a sigle distroyer to be able to defend it all by himself. There is simply too much space to cover and patrol/defend then you would need even more ships posibly another 5 or 6 of them to acurately keep the pirates and smuglers at distance and also to control the criminal element posibly put down rebelions and stuff like that. This would actualy make up an entire GTVA fleet. 1 or 2 destroyers with at least 2 corvettes and 3 or 4 cruisers gooing on patrols police duties and other stuff like that.


This sort of raises again the need for fast patrol ships similar to the fenris. Fast versatile capable of fast strike missions and boring supply depot defence.


Wow i alwais believed the Fenris to be something near useless because its so fragile but when i look at other ships in the game and when i think about all of the roles a ship can actualy perform it makes the Fenris look pretty damn good and usefull.

[Mars]

Fighters and bombers defend a destroyer pretty well, maybe one Deimos, the rest of the fleet can do things elsewhere in the system and jump in to defend the destroyer in an emergency

[AlphaOne]

well you do have a point. Also since i do not believe that th GTVA has any more the abilaty to mount a credible warfleet so to say at least not in the coming weeks or even a month or 2 i would imagine the GTVA fleets beeing streched to the limist in order to cover as much ground as posible so that diferent ships can leave theyr home sistem/s in order to form a new warfleet. At least until the GTVA can replenish some of the losses sutained in the last war which would take acording to my estimates anywhere from 1 year to 5 years depending on theyr dedication to rearm and reequip.


this exact scenarios is where ships like the fenris come in very very usefull. I mnea its fast and agile and i do not believe pirates would be able to sneak past it with ease since they will have to have at least on transport. This coupled with added help from fighters from a sistem instalation or even a destroyer would help a lot in the coming months after the second shivan war. Also how many fighters does each star sistem have? I believe someone said that there were like hundreds of them defending the major sistem alone. I mean in close orbit to each major planet.


Anyone have any ideea?

[Mars]

I think the GTVA will fix itself pretty quick, the Zods'll have a bit more trouble though.

With the fighters, assuming every system has two destroyers and an Acadia ~318, but I think the number is probably higher than that.

[Sarafan]

I think that the major error that the GTVA does, is that they take up the duty of patrolling and enforcing the law on the systems all by themselves so there wouldnt be a police to at least help them and that's an issue that should be adressed, especially after the second great war. Without this responsibilty, the GTVA would've able to bring a far more powerful fleet to bear against the shivans and would've been able to attack at least the shivan system beyond the 2nd knossos before the arrival of the Sathanas fleet.

The Fenris, for its porpuse (a faster, more agile cruiser), serves really well but its hopessly outgunned/outclassed for a military ship. The GTVA (militarily) should concentrate on building more Aeolus cruisers since they're more armored and armed than a Leviathan and (I guess) almost as fast as the Fenris.

Also the GTVA could definitely built ships quickly, especially in war time, the wiki says that ''production of the Hornet ran full-tilt at factories in eight star systems right up to the end of the war'', and since they would be desperate to replenish their losses after Capella, a destroyer per year is quite possible but I guess the real problem would be finding a crew.

[Mars]

Other than the pirates in Silent Threat, I see no canonical evidence that the GVN and GTN are responsible for police action. I don't think most civvys would have acess to anything bigger than one of those guns the marines carry, any more than a civvy in any MDC would have acess to a Vulcan cannon or a cruise missile.

[Goober5000]

Suppressing pirates doesn't fall under police action in FreeSpace any more than it did in the 18th century, IMHO.  It's defending political territory.  Think of it as a modern day Border Patrol or Coast Guard.  (When the GTVA is fighting the NTF or the Shivans, of course, it functions as a full-fledged navy.)

Combination of the military and the police inevitably leads to corruption of both.  The GTVA would be wise to keep them separate.

[Kosh]

When it comes to ship numbers and the types of ships the GTVA uses, consider two things:

1.) After the Great War, most of the Vasudan shipyards were probably destroyed by the Shivans. Most of the Terran shipyards were located in Sol, which of course was cut off. The Vasudans were able to rebuild much faster than the Terrans, sp when FS2 starts they have more shipyards then the Terrans did, so their fleet was almost completely modern (unlike the Terrans, whose fleets had lots of Great War leftovers)

2.) They also have something called "a budget" to worry about. The Vasudan economy was much better than the Terran economy, so they could afford to wield many of these shiny new warships. Why else do we see so many Sobeks in the main campaign, but not as many Deimos's? Or just looking at the cruiser types that we see, the Vasudans always seem to have brand new Mentu cruisers when the Terrans frequently use refitted Great War era designs.

[Colonol Dekker]

I thought the Hierarchy went like this,

Armada
Fleet
Battlegroup
Flotilla
Patrol
escort

[Mars]

Yeah, the Vasudans seem to send in a Sobek with every squadron they dispatch, you gotta love it.

[Sarafan]

The wiki says that design of the Sobek ''began in the dark days after the destruction of Vasuda Prime'' so it would make sense that they have far more of these ships than the Deimos, the wiki also says that the Deimos is the ''newest addition to the Terran fleet'', so does that mean that its even newer than the Hecate?

And I agree with what Kosh said about budget, especially if you note that after the first great war the GTA splintered into several terran blocs, each with its own economical problems so that would make them put an even greater reliance into building great war era ships than modernizing their fleets so that only after the formation of the GTVA it would be possible to field new terran designs.

Sorry, for patrolling and enforcing the law on the systems I meant that they did that in space not in land, I should've explained it better.

[AlphaOne]

Well yeah the whole budget thing is a valid point but when you are facing the posibilaty of yet another shivan invashion you ten d to find wais to increase the budget of the milatary and geenraly speed up ship building and development of new tech. Dont ask me what those means are since i dont know just yet. Also even if the terrans split up into blocks they would still continue the raeserch and exchange of knoledge between them and with the Vasudans. considering that they managed to rebuild they societies from scratch after the Great war i believe that it would be a lot eassier for them to actualy rearm they fleets and evolve into even a greater milatary power then ever before. They only lost one sistem.

sure it was an important sistem but noenthelesss they do not have to start from scratch I mean most of theyr shipyards are intact as is most of theyr sistems.

Relocating the cappelan refugees whyle a big task I believe it is a lot easier then most people would imagine. I mean sure it will be hard but not that hard as to cause very serious problemes.


Whant an example of economical solution ? Tkae for instance the great economical depression that hit europe and america and not only these parts of the world. I mean the US devised a somewhat practical solution:they needed both roades and railways to cross the entier USA and so they put to work most of the unemployed people to do just that build roades and railways thus ensuring both a worker problem and an unemplymkent problem. Sure they orked for food and a few dolars a month but it was better then to starve to death.   Such a solution I believe could be implemented by the GTVA especialy now that they need crewes for they ships as well as pilots.

They can just offer them a chance in the milatary. I think there are a lot of capellan refugees that are just diing for the opurtunity to inflict some damage to the shivans so enlisting should be at all time high.

Sure you have to train them but its better then just letting them unemployed and waiting for the GTVA to provide them with fodd and whatever they need. This is by no mean the solution to the problem but its one of its remedies.

[Mars]

That was the philosophy of the US and USSR during the Cold War, one colapsed from economic self abuse and the other is in trillions of dollars of debt.