[aldo_14]

Nazi Germany also had massive public works programmes in the aftermath of the massive depression that helped Hitler get into power; which is quite probably a contributor to why they needed to invade countries and take slave labour, as doing so indefinately without war would have bankrupted the country.

[AlphaOne]

Yes that is very much true but then again war is something the GTVA does not lack. Its either a rebel faction or the shivans. Also they would not be dooing this forever just enough time in order to get they act toghether.

Build enough housing fo the refugeez create enough workplaces for the majority of the working population since only 50% of the refugeez actualy can work since we do have children and elderly people and stuff like that.

[aldo_14]

Yes that is very much true but then again war is something the GTVA does not lack. Its either a rebel faction or the shivans. Also they would not be dooing this forever just enough time in order to get they act toghether.

Buh?  The whole point was that the Germans went to war to claim resources and slave labour - who the hell are the GTVA going to go to war with to get that?

[AlphaOne]

Umm maybe not slave labour since they already have a masive surpluss of unemplyment on theyr hands but resources they could take from the...umm...can u guess it....the shivans!

I mean they sure as hell are gooing to run into shivans again. And even if they do not defeat them they can at least snatch a nebula and one or 2 sistems from they control seal of the nodes till they are capable of gooing at war with the shivans again. Even if they do not target the shivans they sure as hell are gooing to run into them again since i do not believe we have seen the end of the GTVA expansion into other sistems.


And dont tell this wont happen because they ar too terified of the shivans cuz that is simply not the case.

[aldo_14]

Umm maybe not slave labour since they already have a masive surpluss of unemplyment on theyr hands but resources they could take from the...umm...can u guess it....the shivans!

I mean they sure as hell are gooing to run into shivans again. And even if they do not defeat them they can at least snatch a nebula and one or 2 sistems from they control seal of the nodes till they are capable of gooing at war with the shivans again. Even if they do not target the shivans they sure as hell are gooing to run into them again since i do not believe we have seen the end of the GTVA expansion into other sistems.


And dont tell this wont happen because they ar too terified of the shivans cuz that is simply not the case.

At this point, the Shivans have control of Beta Cygni, Betelgeuse, Ross 128, Ikeya, and Regulus. Most of the Vasudan forces are gathering in Vega for a counterstrike, while we are gathering our fleet in Antares for an effort to retake Ribos and Beta Cygni. Oddly enough, the Shivans don't seem to be interested in taking control of any planets in the systems, or gathering natural resources. Instead they seem to be focused on controlling individual jump nodes.

For a long time we did not know why they chased us. They were no ordinary enemy. They did not seek our territory, our technology, our resources. Now we know our crime was sin.

Not really a strong justification for picking the Shivans to attack, is it?

That's aside from the whole problem that the GTVA a) doesn't know where the Shivans are and b) building a portal so your biggest enemy could annihilate you would be massively expensive.

Oh, and c) both times the GTVA faced the Shivans they barely survived.

It's the military equivalent of trying to carjack a tank.

[TrashMan]

carjacking a tank...interesting..

Well, given the fact that shivan weren't interested in controling planets or resources, then those would still be in tact after the shivan invasion (except Vasuda)...

[AlphaOne]

well when i said resources i mean control of jumpnodes. Bi controling the jumpnodes to/from a sistem you control the sistem. Also I dont believe they have to go too far before they come face to face with the shivans. And even if the shivans have retreated the GTVA will sooner or later face them again.

Either way the exploration and subsequent colonization of a star sistem would also mean some more capships to that sistem to defend it and keep control over it just in case.

Remeber that the shivans can uses jumpnode not YET available to the GTVA meaning either too unstable or undiscovered jumpnodes. They will most certainly make the economical effort to strenghten they milatary even if they do not go after shivan controled sistems cuz they never know when they might come under attack.

It seems like a wasted chance to have the abylaty eventualy to go an colonize new star sistem open up the way to new economical and material resources and not do it !

[aldo_14]

well when i said resources i mean control of jumpnodes. Bi controling the jumpnodes to/from a sistem you control the sistem. Also I dont believe they have to go too far before they come face to face with the shivans. And even if the shivans have retreated the GTVA will sooner or later face them again.

Either way the exploration and subsequent colonization of a star sistem would also mean some more capships to that sistem to defend it and keep control over it just in case.

Remeber that the shivans can uses jumpnode not YET available to the GTVA meaning either too unstable or undiscovered jumpnodes. They will most certainly make the economical effort to strenghten they milatary even if they do not go after shivan controled sistems cuz they never know when they might come under attack.

It seems like a wasted chance to have the abylaty eventualy to go an colonize new star sistem open up the way to new economical and material resources and not do it !

How does any of this stop an economic depression, again?

[AlphaOne]

I posted above! also there is no proof of an economical depression! sure there mai be some sort of economical problem/crisis but to go as far as to say an economical depression would grip the GTVA is somewhat exagerated. I dont think that people would start selling theyr stock  all of a sudden now that the GTVA has gotten beaten again. I believe people would start or at least try to buy new stock options and stuff like that especialy in the companies that make weapons and well housing to put it simpli since there would be a lot of major requests for these 2 branches. Not to go around and say the other industryes like food clothing and other stuff like that.

Nothing makes the economy booming at least for a short-medium time duration like a major war.

they may be short on manpower and resources to acomplish this but that wouldnt mean they go into an economical depression.

[aldo_14]

I posted above! also there is no proof of an economical depression! sure there mai be some sort of economical problem/crisis but to go as far as to say an economical depression would grip the GTVA is somewhat exagerated. I dont think that people would start selling theyr stock  all of a sudden now that the GTVA has gotten beaten again. I believe people would start or at least try to buy new stock options and stuff like that especialy in the companies that make weapons and well housing to put it simpli since there would be a lot of major requests for these 2 branches. Not to go around and say the other industryes like food clothing and other stuff like that.

Nothing makes the economy booming at least for a short-medium time duration like a major war.

they may be short on manpower and resources to acomplish this but that wouldnt mean they go into an economical depression.

Right, so the GTVA is going to throw itself into a suicidal war for short term 'economic' benefit (of what?  bodybag sales?  wreckage salvaging?), even though the last 2 resulted in the loss of massive amounts of resources and people?  And somehow they will obtain enough materials to rebuild the decimated fleet, build all these ships, build a Knossos, find Shivan space, capture Shivan space, whilst somehow rehousing millions of refugees?

Hmmm.  Let's think.  The US is currently in an effective state of war.  Is there an economic boom?  And that's a war not posing a threat to their survival.

Ok, so, what about WW2?  How did the UK do?  Still technically paying off war debts to the US, you say?  Erk.

I'd also like to know how refugees, forced to leave their possesions and wealth behind, can be anticipated to suddenly start investing in 'stuff'.  Or how the GTVA is going to pay to magic up all these new factories and money to pay for wages (let alone private enterprise).  I mean, Sudan must be booming in wealth now!

[Mars]

During war economies go into overdrive, it's a fact. I'm not saying he's right about everything, but there are short term economic benifits of war.

[aldo_14]

During war economies go into overdrive, it's a fact. I'm not saying he's right about everything, but there are short term economic benifits of war.

But you pay in the long-term.  That's why no sane country recovers from warfare by immediately invading someone else.

[Mars]

Yeah, I know, that's the "I don't agree with everything" part.

[AlphaOne]

Aldo i mi english mai be bad but you must be blind! Where on earth did you SEE in mi post anithing about the refugees buing stock and investing into the industry??? For crying out loud stop putting words into other peoples posts. The GTVA is more then a few milion refugees. Also since when did the GTVA got its entire fleet decimated?? It got its war fleet or whatever you wan to call it decimated. for all we know its fleets cound be 3 times lasrger then that but scattered all across the GTVA space. NO MILATARY puts its entire assets into a war !

Or you are gooing to come up with some cannon evidence that the entire GTVA fleet was composed of nothin more then 7 or so destroyers and a dozen corvettes because that is insane.


Also the GTVA did not loose its entire industry base or its core sistems this time like it happened during the Great War oh and guess what not only did they survive the last war with even more battered fleets then during the second shivan war but yeah you know it without a very larga part of its industry and the loss of its 2 major economical jubs the homesistems.

And now you are willing to tell me that just because the GTVA lost some of its fleet and one sistem which was not even a capital sistem they would go into an economical depression and chaos and stuff like that?? Please....! Where is Trashman when you need him!???


As I said before a milatary entiti does not have to suffer masive damage in order to be defeated it just needs to suffer enough damage in a short enough period as to make it unwilling and/or unable to continue fighting its current battle. As is the case of the GTVA.

Suer they mai have had more ships but they were nowhere near the conflict area.

[Sarafan]

I didnt know the Fenris was such an important vessel to the economic stablilty of GTVA.

The Second Great War had mainly two impacts on the GTVA economy:

First the Capellan refugees, there are about millions of them, finding them a new home would be relative easy (a good place would be the systems beyond Altair or Laramis) but the logistics and costs of such operation (tranporting them to the site, settling them there and building an entire infrastructure (economical and social) to support them, plus medical treatment and feeding them all the way) would be an nightmare to any nation, that just by itself would an incredible severe blow to the economic.

Second the military losses, several destroyers, corvettes, cruisers and fighters, you're going to have build all of them again AND get the crew to operate (but I sorta agree with AlphaOne when he said to recruit the refugees, a really good part of them would be begging for a chance for revenge, this is a good possiblity) and train the crew (something that would take years).

Each of these two by themselves would already have a deep impact on the economy but I think the GTVA could handle them, the big problem is they're ocurred at the same time and because of that the impact they had on the economy would be enough to sunk the GTVA in to a serious depression. Now going to war against the shivans is just stupid.

Even if they fleet was spread across the whole territory, the problem was that the shivan had a fleet of 80+ Sathanas threating to invade, with this kind of firepower even if the entire military power of the GTVA was avaliable it would have still lost the war.

[AlphaOne]

Never said it wouldnt lose the war when faced with 80+juggs. Again I believe you are overestimating the impact the loss of Capella had on the economy of the GTVA. However i do admit that the GTVA would be facing a serious economical probelem/crisis. But like I said before they managed to raise themselfs from the ashes of the Great War I have no problem what so ever in sayng that this problem now would be nothig more the just that shot lived economical crissis. That is untill they have a chance to reorganize and start putting the GTVA back on track. This would take 1-3 years . This is the time period it would take the GTVA to actualy relocate the majority of the refugees  and provide some sort of infrastructure on theyr new sistem.

Also the refugees could actualy work for the rebuilding o theyr lives since i do believe there must be some engineers or pilots or architects or scientists among them. Also dont tell me that the GTVA can build 2+ km destroyers in a relative shor amount of time yet they can not set up the infrastructure for several milion refugees on a nwe planet. (by this i understand building houses,sanitation facilaties and other stuff like that) As for actual jobbs for the long term I do believe that 10.000 people per destroyer is a big enough figure. Also they will need soldiers (ground forces) for the Deneb/Sirius and Polaris sistems. I do believe they actualy fought the NTF over there and there was a masive landing of troops. And if they did that through every sistem the NTF managed to control then you would have casualties ranging from several hundreds of thousand to more then a milion. I do bileve there is rather pressing need for soldiers.

Also the GTVA can recruit pilots for freighters,asteroid miners, gas miners and just plain old janitors.


The problem is not as big as aldo would make you to believe it is! Sure is it serous but is by no means "life threatening"  .


Oh and the Fenris actualy does play a rather important economical role in the GTVA especyali  now that they have a constant demand for fast ships to patrol the shiping lanes, supply depots, and even conver them  into transports of goods and personell/civilians. These are all tasks that a Fenris can actualy perform because of its good speed and relative generous interiour. 

[Nuclear1]

NO MILATARY puts its entire assets into a war !

Except when it just happens to be a war that, if lost, could spell the death of billions and the destruction of two species.

Or you are gooing to come up with some cannon evidence that the entire GTVA fleet was composed of nothin more then 7 or so destroyers and a dozen corvettes because that is insane.

You seem to be forgetting the sheer scale of the conflict. To start, the NTF rebellion likely took the majority of the fleets stationed in Sirius, Regulus, and Polaris through defection and surprise attacks, leading to the GTVA's loss of three fleets alone. The heavy casualties sustained in Deneb and Epsilon Pegasi are canon evidence of the losses sustained by the GTVA. For the NTF, the Colossus and the gauntlet of blockades en route to Gamma Draconis were both factors in destroying significant portions of the fleet.

So, let's add this all up. The NTF lost approximately 9 destroyers and about 6 or so corvettes. The GTVA lost 75% of the 6th Fleet, sustained heavy casualties in Deneb, and met fierce resistance from a two-pronged offensive in Sirius. With the canonical NTF casualties, the total is at about 108,000 dead, and those are just the destroyers and corvettes mentioned in briefings or seen ingame, and does not include the countless cruisers, convoys, pilots, and marines.

The GTVA is already known to have lost 85,000 in EP, and, when added with the casualties in other theaters of the civil war, likely lost well over 100,000 as well.

By the end of the civil war, the GTVA was fighting without the strength of the Regulus, Polaris, Sirius, and Epsilon Pegasi fleets. Because many of these fleets were short jumps away from Capella and the Shivan front (namely Polaris and Epsilon Pegasi), the GTVA likely had to call up help from both the Vasudans and other GTVA fleets throughout the galaxy.

The Shivan incursion was very likely even more costly for the GTVA. Multiple warships fighting the Ravana alone were lost, as well as two destroyers and the Colossus to the Sathanes alone. Add to this that the GTVA had sustained over 100,000 casualties in Capella when the plan to collapse the jump nodes was finally launched. The fierce Shivan attacks at the Vega and Epsilon Pegasi nodes likely cost thousands of casualties as well, not to mention the sizeable fleet left behind in Capella at the time of the supernova.

So there you have it. 100,000+ in Capella, 100,000+ in the civil war (not counting the genocide of the Vasudans), and 100,000+ for the NTF leads to well over 300,000 combat deaths, at least 13 mentioned destroyers lost, and four fleets essentially lost.

[aldo_14]

Aldo i mi english mai be bad but you must be blind! Where on earth did you SEE in mi post anithing about the refugees buing stock and investing into the industry??? For crying out loud stop putting words into other peoples posts. The GTVA is more then a few milion refugees. Also since when did the GTVA got its entire fleet decimated?? It got its war fleet or whatever you wan to call it decimated. for all we know its fleets cound be 3 times lasrger then that but scattered all across the GTVA space. NO MILATARY puts its entire assets into a war !

Read the end mission.

The Allied fleet has been pulverized, so for the sake of all Terrans and Vasudans, the war must end here.

and, er, ever heard of a war for survival?

"Oh, sorry captain - we lost earth, but at least the 3rd fleet is hidden in Wolf 359"

Or you are gooing to come up with some cannon evidence that the entire GTVA fleet was composed of nothin more then 7 or so destroyers and a dozen corvettes because that is insane.

Read the end mission.

And if you want to invent numbers, go ahead, but the only canonical numbers for the GTVA ships as seen in the campaign, and for the losses, indicates that fleet was not the 50-or-60 destroyer sized monster you seem to be expecting here.

Also the GTVA did not loose its entire industry base or its core sistems this time like it happened during the Great War oh and guess what not only did they survive the last war with even more battered fleets then during the second shivan war but yeah you know it without a very larga part of its industry and the loss of its 2 major economical jubs the homesistems.

sorry, this part hurts my head.  Jubs?

The GTVA lost Capella.  It lost a massive amount of ships.  It has to house, feed, and protect millions of civillians.  It has also undergone a huge civil war over the last 18 months prior, in case you forgot the NTF.

And now you are willing to tell me that just because the GTVA lost some of its fleet and one sistem which was not even a capital sistem they would go into an economical depression and chaos and stuff like that?? Please....! Where is Trashman when you need him!???

Um, they would go into depression if they launched a job-and-ship manufacturing programme as you suggested, yes.  Because they can't pay for it.  Money does not grow on trees, even in the GTVA, as far as I know.

As I said before a milatary entiti does not have to suffer masive damage in order to be defeated it just needs to suffer enough damage in a short enough period as to make it unwilling and/or unable to continue fighting its current battle. As is the case of the GTVA.

Um, technically, the GTVA was unwilling to fight from the point the first Sathanas emerged, barring their little excursion back until they found the 2nd.  Everything after that was effectively a combination of disaster control and retreating.

Sometimes, you see, the enemy doesn't let you retreat.  Shocking principle, I know, that the enemy might want to pursue and destroy you even after running away.

Suer they mai have had more ships but they were nowhere near the conflict area.

Read the end mission.

NB:
@nuclear; not to mention the civillian casaulties (probably well into the millions), or the military ground casualties - 600,000 ground troops were landed on Cygnus Prime, and that's scarcely likely to be the only planet with ground combat between the NTF and GTVA.

Also, it's worth noting Capella had 250,000,000 civillians.  That's not exactly a trivial or cheap amount to feed, clothe, house, etc.

[Mars]

Actually the reported number was 250,000, but that was after many of them were evaced.

[aldo_14]

Actually the reported number was 250,000, but that was after many of them were evaced.

COMMAND BRIEFING 3

Allied Strategy

A small task force will oversee the demolition of the Knossos while the bulk of the allied fleet blockades the jump node leading to the densely-populated Capella system. Command has begun the process of evacuating the two hundred fifty million civilians inhabiting Capella, the largest exodus since the Great War. The Colossus will remain in that system to engage the Sathanas should we fail.