[Freespace Freak]

On the other hand for bombers. How hard was it ever to get really up close and personal to a sath with a normal bomber? I'd say if gtva wanted to, they could get away by just having more powerful ordinance, and possibly more capacity on bombers. With more powerful bombs, taking down a sath could become easier than taking down a destroyer (since saths don't have much weaponry besides 4 huge arms).
[/quote]

Exactly right.  I think after a little demonstration, the Shivans would become very reluctant to commit the Saths to battle any longer.  They may even scrap them and convert the scrap to contemporary Destroyers and other capships, which would be much more effective against the GTVA at this point.  After the Shivans abandon the Saths, GTVA vs. Shivan battles would become more like old-fashioned slugging matches that we're used to in FS2.

[Agent_Koopa]

We still don't know the purpose of the Sathanas, or of the destruction of Capella. We don't know that the Shivans ever intended the Sathanas as a general-purpose assault ship. Perhaps the expense of putting four BFReds on a Sathanas was simply an acceptable investment to protect the juggernaut's anti-star weaponry/theorized portal generator. The Sathanas has many already-pointed-out weaknesses, the biggest being its lack of rear-facing defensive beams. The Lucifer proved to be an equal threat, and it was much smaller. We don't know anything about Shivan motives for the Sathanas fleet, which could easily have destroyed every city on every planet in every system governed by the GTVA before any nodes could be destroyed, but chose not to, instead wholly destroying a system which they may have known to be uninhabited, having observed many transports (assuming they recognized them to be transports) leaving the system, even attempting to destroy these transports, sacrificing not insignificant forces in the process. While the Sathanas fleet destroyed Capella, the Melchom and the Bane attempted to enter the node in what was probably an attempt to attack the GTVA or perhaps an attempt to stop them from closing the node. We can only speculate on Shivan motives for producing the Sathanas, or indeed their motives for pretty much anything.

[Snail]

FSFreak, I don't think the Shivans would scrap the Saths, they have a special purpose that we don't know about. I agree with Koopa, the 4 BFReds were either there to protect the Sath's subspace weapon, or were simply benefit of having the weapon's reactor. The Melchom and the Bane could actually be trying to escape Capella before it went nova. And about the Saths not jumping out. Perhaps they just had no more energy to do so after using the weapon. You actually see that the red fades from them, signalling they had used almost, or all, their energy on the subspace weapon.

The Sathanas fleet, at the time, could have easily wiped out the GTVA fleet in Capella, split up into two groups, wipe out Epsilon Pegasi and Vega, and move on until they have pushed the GTVA into a corner somewhere. They could've done that, the GTVA fleet was entirely inferior to a fleet of eighty Sathanes, but they did not. Wonder why...

So I doubt they would scrap Sathanes, I think they would simply just add more SAAA or protect them better with many more Cains, Liliths, Rakshasas, Molochs, Ravanas and Demons. Or simply keep them in subspace for as long as possible, stop at a rally point, recharge jump drives and continue on. So the Strategic Bombers would probably kill a few Sathanes before the Shivans begin to go all tactical on you. Perhaps if they still want to blow up ships normally with their Sathanas fleet, they would just jump them in and then warp them out as quickly as possible.

But the bomber strike force is probably the only thing the GTVA can rely on unless they make Meson Beams that can kill Saths in a single beam, which would be a lot cooler. However, flying a lumbering superbomer would probably be far more fun than just guarding the Meson lobber from Shivan Bombers.

[Mefustae]

The Sathanas fleet, at the time, could have easily wiped out the GTVA fleet in Capella, split up into two groups, wipe out Epsilon Pegasi and Vega, and move on until they have pushed the GTVA into a corner somewhere. They could've done that, the GTVA fleet was entirely inferior to a fleet of eighty Sathanes, but they did not. Wonder why...

Woah, that would be an awesome idea for an AU-Campaign: The GTVA pushed literally into a corner, almost every core system occupied by the Shivan Juggernaut armada, the only choice left being to push through the Shivan fleet and try to fight through Shivan territory beyond the Knossi while the bulk of their forces are in GTVA space. Damn, i've gotta go write this down somewhere... *wanders off*

Back OT: If they had any Sathanas left, the Shivans would sooner upgrade them than sell them into scrap. They would likely use the tactical information they gathered from the scuffle against GTVA forces and augment the hull to hold more weapons systems and give the Sathanas a wider firing arch, potentially similar to the Colossus. Given the size of the Juggernaut, scrapping a Sathanas would be akin to the USN scrapping the Nimitz-class Supercarrier just because the design isn't perfect.

[AlphaOne]

WEll the way i see it the GTVA really needs a fast ship with powefull weapons sistems.

One idea would be to produce omething about 1.5 km long put 2 subspace jump drives onm it and 4 heavy wepons sistems (4 heavy beam cannons) give it the armour of a deimos of about 80.000 hp with a top speed of about 35 m/s small fighterbay of about 100 spacecrafts. Such a ship would be very fast very versatile. And deadly give the right cirustances or a good capatain. I wonder if Bosch would of taken the job of camanding such a beutyful ship. Oh and lets not forget use as much vasudan and shivan tech as curently available. Terrans are somewhat inferior to vasudans in terms of reactor cores and general power sistems.

Of course for such a ship to be viabl you would have to decrase its beam refire rate. Even 30% would be good.

[Snail]

The GTVA should pour all its resources into making the Sol Jumpgate rather than doing anything else. Well, that's probably what command would do anyway.

[Mefustae]

The GTVA should pour all its resources into making the Sol Jumpgate rather than doing anything else. Well, that's probably what command would do anyway.

Exactly, distract the GTVA populous from the cripplingly devastating economic and social hardships ahead as the second reconstruction era begins.

[Snail]

It would probably boost morale, but what happens if the SHivans return and all you've got is a Knossos portal?

[Mefustae]

If they're in serious danger of losing to a third Shivan incursion? Collapse the nodes. That would likely be one of the major avenues of research into the future; craft specifically designed to collapse subspace nodes. The GTVA already have the crude ability to collapse them permanently, but I forsee that the advent of Knossoss technology will allow the them to collapse and re-open nodes at will. Shivan fleet coming your way? No problem, just seal off the node and go happily about your way.

[Admiral Edivad]

Shivan fleet coming your way? No problem, just seal off the node and go happily about your way.

the problems comes when shivans re-open the nodes... i've seen that in Inferno there is a "shivan knossos". if shivans are fast enough and have the resources to build 80+ sathanas in a short period of time, they could as well open a subspace portal to come in the systems of the GTVA. (-->a new idea for the sol history: GTVA builds the Sol Gate and finds shivan inside.... )

[AlphaOne]

The chances of shivans actualy managing to get to Sol before the GTVA are even smaller then you actualy taking out a shivan jugg with a cruiser.....a fenris cruiser. I thing that every square km of space that surounds the closest sistems to Solhave been scaned and rescaned in order to find a suitable jump node. Not to mention that the Sol fleets would of done the same. If a stable jumpnode could of been to get to Sol then you can rest asured then the GTVA would of eventualy found a way to use it without the use of a knossos. Hell they had shivan captured ships. Sure they did not manage to get the engines working properly but the jump drive seemed to be operational.

[Snail]

Who says they didn't use their own jump drive?

The Shivans are known as the MASTERS OF SUBSPACE (dun dun dun), so I dont really see how they were sealed off in the first place anyway.

[Agent_Koopa]

AlphaOne may be right. So far, the Shivans have been explained as using unstable nodes as jump points, never making their own. On the other hand, how many times do jump nodes form and collapse in a second? Stable ones last decades, how often do unstable ones? It's fairly difficult to scan an entire star system, perhaps they missed something.

Also, now that the GTVA has Knossos technology, I think they'll go around and build Knossos portals around every jump node to prevent collapse, once they've rebuilt the economy.

[spartan_0214]

Do the Shivans even know that Sol is our home system?

[S-99]

No, but they sure do know that's where your mom lives. And they want a piece of that

[Freespace Freak]

I personally don't think that there would have been a second economic collapse.  The Second Great War was not nearly as devastating as the first, and they only lost one system.  Granted it was a major system, but it wasn't a homeworld.  Additionally, during the first Great War the TV forces were pushed into a corner, and who knows how many civilians were slaughtered behind enemy lines. 

Most likely the GTVA would have simply accelerated into a command wartime economy, creating a rationing economy sort of like a temporary communistic economy.  Not unlike the wartime economies of WWII America and the US.  Even though they wouldn't be directly at war, they would realize that the Shivans could return at any moment and this time they knew more about the Shivans capabilities.  They would behave as if they were still waging an ongoing war with the Shivans, even thought they had severed contact. 

The first thing the GTVA would have done, I think, after the collapse of Capella would be to find some way to take on a large Sathanas fleet, and be able to build this capability in under, say, five years.  This is why I came up with the ultra-bomber idea because they would need to build this anti-Sath-armada capability quickly, for as far as they knew the Shivans could have popped up in some other GTVA system practically the day after the collapse of Capella.

[TrashMan]

It would probably boost morale, but what happens if the Shivans return and all you've got is a Knossos portal?

Would htat be all you got? Research would continue on other things and Sol would have some forces of it's own. Given the fear of Shivans, they would probably fortify the system beyond all reason

Plus, they have hte Lucifer remains floating there...which means Sol might have acess to some pretty neat tech

If they're in serious danger of losing to a third Shivan incursion? Collapse the nodes. That would likely be one of the major avenues of research into the future; craft specifically designed to collapse subspace nodes. The GTVA already have the crude ability to collapse them permanently, but I forsee that the advent of Knossoss technology will allow the them to collapse and re-open nodes at will. Shivan fleet coming your way? No problem, just seal off the node and go happily about your way.

I?m not so sure that it's permanent... the node might stablise again (in a few thousand years:D)

[AlphaOne]

You are right about the Terrans in Sol making it a super fortress. As for tech advances i think they could be ahead of the GTVA in terms of weapons and engines etc. Why? Simply because they had all this time to spare for nothing to do but advance theyr tech. And they also have the Lucy remains over there. Rememeber what the GTI did with that tech? Who says they wont be able to do the same .

This is indeed a very plausyble scenario since Even if it took 10 or 20 years for the GTA to rebuild Sol after aledged economical desasters or something like that the rest of the time they would be building more powerfull ships more advanced ships. Hell the GTVA has been in one war after another and they still managed to get the economy working and rebuild they shipyards and fleets and advance in tech terms. I think one of the biggest fears that the GTA would of had is the fear of another Lucy or more of them and would of taken apropriate measures .

Sweet just imagine Sol fleets actualy beeing more powerfull the theyr GTVA counterparts. this reminds me of Inferno.

[aldo_14]

You are right about the Terrans in Sol making it a super fortress. As for tech advances i think they could be ahead of the GTVA in terms of weapons and engines etc. Why? Simply because they had all this time to spare for nothing to do but advance theyr tech. And they also have the Lucy remains over there. Rememeber what the GTI did with that tech? Who says they wont be able to do the same .

This is indeed a very plausyble scenario since Even if it took 10 or 20 years for the GTA to rebuild Sol after aledged economical desasters or something like that the rest of the time they would be building more powerfull ships more advanced ships. Hell the GTVA has been in one war after another and they still managed to get the economy working and rebuild they shipyards and fleets and advance in tech terms. I think one of the biggest fears that the GTA would of had is the fear of another Lucy or more of them and would of taken apropriate measures .

Sweet just imagine Sol fleets actualy beeing more powerfull the theyr GTVA counterparts. this reminds me of Inferno.

Generally speaking, cutting off an entire city from the outside world in the aftermath of a disabling long-term war, does very little to make that city more economically vibrant.  The GTVA was forced to advance through said wars; it also had multiple colonies and cross-research with the Vasudans, which could potentially have opened up many new avenues of development (such as reactor technology).  The GTVA also had access to not just more materials, but more variety of materials.

Whilst it's hard to find an exact parallel with the real world or history, it's surely worth noting that Sol has had to endure the loss of every outside resource it ever had.  And I personally would suspect there was a growing economic dependence on exterior resources, for the very same reason that it expanded outwards in the first place.  It's hard, also, for me to see what motivation there would be for a stable Sol to preserve & expand the military when it's quite possible there are more pressing problems of rebuilding or perhaps overpopulation, and when there are no nodes for an enemy to come from.  Many nations without a plausible threat stagnate - even the Us needed to invent one in the 'War on Terror' to mobilize the masses - and I'm not convinced Sol would be driven to arm itself against an invisible threat.

The Lucifer remains, I think, are really a red herring.  If you look at the cutscene, the little that survives is gutted by the explosion; I'm not sure how much is left, let alone how much would be comprehensible (after all, they struggled to get a Dragon working and that was considerably more intact and quite possibly worked on more familiar principles).  The idea of the Lucifers crumbling remains as an Aladdins cave of technology has never really hung well with me.

[AlphaOne]

That may be true but let us not forget that almost all of the GTA manufacturing and industrial power base was based in Sol. Also Sol as far as we know is not that resource poor as one might think.

Also lets not forget that at the time the lucifer showed up only a few sistems actuali had mining gooing on. And even less were actualy colonized at the extent we see in Fs2