[TrashMan]

you don't become an anti-semite if you dislike israel

you become anti-israeli if you dislike israel.

you become an anti-semite if you hate all jews

Yes, but the brain creates the connection anyway, since the state is jewish.  And it would not only be Israels fault if that were to happen. That organization led by that natzi-hunter...whatshisname...pulls all sorts of stupid crap too.

All it takes is a few very vocal and very irritating members of X to paint a very negative picture of all X. You know..like the media are demonizing gamers and turning games into kill/rape simulators.... The world is full of examples.

[Mika]

You're kidding me right?

I've already made the point about a dozen times that it was Israel's side lining of the PLO and Fatah that opened the door for Hamas to be elected.

I don't think you have explained this with much of detail yet. How did they side line PLO? Why did they side line them?

One additional comment: reading through your posts, I get the impression that the mentioned side lining was a calculated move by Israel as if they would have wanted the Hamas power to increase. Is this correct or incorrect?

Mika

[General Battuta]

you don't become an anti-semite if you dislike israel

you become anti-israeli if you dislike israel.

you become an anti-semite if you hate all jews

Yes, but the brain creates the connection anyway, since the state is jewish.  And it would not only be Israels fault if that were to happen. That organization led by that natzi-hunter...whatshisname...pulls all sorts of stupid crap too.

All it takes is a few very vocal and very irritating members of X to paint a very negative picture of all X. You know..like the media are demonizing gamers and turning games into kill/rape simulators.... The world is full of examples.

So because Black individuals are more often criminals, you've started to become anti-Black?

[karajorma]

I don't think you have explained this with much of detail yet. How did they side line PLO? Why did they side line them?

One additional comment: reading through your posts, I get the impression that the mentioned side lining was a calculated move by Israel as if they would have wanted the Hamas power to increase. Is this correct or incorrect?

Israel deliberately made the PLO and Fatah seem ineffectual (via blockades, etc) in order to get the Palestinians to pick different leaders. They hoped that they would get someone that they were able to deal with. They continued this policy despite several warnings that it was only leading to more extremism in Gaza and the West Bank.

The end result was that Hamas were seen as the party who could get things done. When Hamas won the election, Israel immediately refused to talk to them, claiming that they were a terrorist organisation and therefore it wouldn't deal with them. That of course simply had the effect of convincing the average Palestinian that they'd made the right choice by picking someone who pissed off Israel.

The saddest thing about it is that I saw it coming. Hamas were building schools and hospitals while the PLO, under siege from an Israel absolutely convinced that they'd never see peace while Arafat was alive couldn't do anything. I'm sure they thought it was perfectly logical but anyone sensible could see that sooner or later this policy was going to blow up in their face.

[TrashMan]

So because Black individuals are more often criminals, you've started to become anti-Black?

Not yet.
Not many black folk where I live and those I do know are rather nice. So I'm not bombarded by negative experience with them.

[General Battuta]

So because Black individuals are more often criminals, you've started to become anti-Black?

Not yet.
Not many black folk where I live and those I do know are rather nice. So I'm not bombarded by negative experience with them.

Actually, to be fair, you're describing the mechanism by which most people form stereotypic associations.

So here I'd say you're actually being rather scientific.

[Splinter]

Yes, I'd say that describes the Israeli governement quite well.

Nice use of examples and facts there. I am totally busted now.

Deliberately targets or deliberately disregards the safety of non combatants. All the proof you need is the fact that there is anyone left alive in Gaza. If Israel was deliberately trying to kill or deliberately disregarded civilians the fighting would have been over before it began. We wouldn't have spent millions and billions of dollars planning and executing a 22 day operation. It would have been quick and painless (for Israel) and it would have been done 8 years ago when the rockets started.

Do you have any idea what their capabilities are? Because I have security clearance for top secret and I don't even know half the things that my own tank was capable of. Before the war in Iraq my friend in a certain unit was tasked with whipping the US navy seals into shape before they were allowed to go in. Marines are here all the time for their CT training. Israel exports more weapons per capita than any other nation in the world beating out russia in 2nd place and the U.S. In 7th. Not to mention microwave weapons and the first military to be fully integrated into a digital battlefield (C&C anyone?). An air force with a  687 to 23 kill in dogfights. And that doesn't even begin to scratch the surface of what I can tell you let alone what I can't tell you and beyond that what I don't have clearance to know.

So again who the hell do you think you are talking about when you say that Israel disregards non combatants? It's more of an effort for the IDF to sneeze then to wipe their problems from the present into the past.

Boith sides have lied on many occasions. Taht is pretty muhc irrelevent.
Unless you can actually offer proof that those buisnissmen are lying?

How is that irrelevant? So you agree that both sides are untrustworthy and yet you will take these businessmen at their word because? Businessmen don't lie? Are not politically motivated? Do not have their own reasons to gain from media attention? What exactly gives you the sense that you can trust them above anyone else's word bar none? The point is you dislike Israel and that is your right however you do it to the extent where you WANT to believe the other side and you will take them at their word until proven otherwise and look at everything Israel says with a magnifying glass instead of doing that to both sides and realizing you can't really know where the truth lies from your high and lofty pearch.

99% of the videos I've seen is utter crap. Green blobs and shapes that can be pretty much anything. Videos and images that make it hard to see what the structure is or even where it is.
I could use the same videos to justify blowing up Notre Dame

You see what you want. You want to believe Israel is wrong and will lie about stuff and so you see what it does as suspect and that is fine. But what isn't cool is you do that only for one side. You need to be foxified (not that I think they are fair and balanced but the idea is the right one). Be as suspicious of one side as you are of the other because as YOU said “Boith sides have lied on many occasions.” So to take one side as absolute truth is hypocritical... think about it.

Maybe they will take that into consideration next time they elect a terrorist organization into power who is trying to eradicate their neighbors by any means necessary.

Isreali government is a terrorist organization. You deserve to have your house rocketed.  Take that into account the nexst time.

Well thank you. I appreciate the death wish you have for me and my family. Even though I can't reciprocate because I wish you only a good life and happiness and hope you never have to be personally involved in the mess going on here.

First of all let's assume you were right and the Israeli government is a terrorist organization. Do I allow them to come into my house store weapons and use it as a launching ground for attacks targeted at civilians on the other side? Do I run in the street singing praises to my god every time a bus gets suicide bombed in Gaza? Do we condemn our own government and military to account for their actions and strive to do better? Israelis are more judgmental of themselves than anyone else. but they get defensive about it when outsiders who don't know their face from a hole in the ground come and try and tell us what is happening here. In short that was a really good comparison and I'm going to go prepare my family for the afterlife because we deserve to die. Peace out.

Wow. Heh. You got us there. You uncovered Israel's master plan. Whenever there arose a Palestinian leader to political power we rocketed his ass. Abbas... Arafat... Ismail Haniyeh... etc etc... oh yeah I heard about rocket attacks on cars of leaders... hmm but I seem to recall those were leaders of the terrorist factions. Funny that you didn't mention that... seems like an important note.

Yes it is. But not for the reasons you think.

Didn't you try to claim that Fatah and the PLO were also terrorist factions earlier? Now you say that Abbas and Arafat aren't the leaders of terrorist factions and therefore weren't attacked with rockets?

So which one is it?

Both. Both the PLO and Fatah (being a part of the PLO) have engaged in terrorist acts one way or another, directly or indirectly. So it really depends on if you view the PLO or Fatah as having responsibility for the terrorist factions that swear allegiance to them or not. Therefore the leaders of those groups were mostly indirectly responsible for terrorist acts and they were the closest we ever got to a moderate Palestinian leadership to deal with and because they publicly denounced violence (even though the organizations they were at the head of continued to perpetuate it most of the time) Israel accepted them as the 'lesser evil'.

[TrashMan]

Deliberately targets or deliberately disregards the safety of non combatants. All the proof you need is the fact that there is anyone left alive in Gaza. If Israel was deliberately trying to kill or deliberately disregarded civilians the fighting would have been over before it began. We wouldn't have spent millions and billions of dollars planning and executing a 22 day operation. It would have been quick and painless (for Israel) and it would have been done 8 years ago when the rockets started.

Hheh...nice joke. Of'course, that proves nothing...since Israel can't do that even if it wanted to, due to the political consequences.
If you keep the killing on a smaller scale, and hide it, you can get away with a lot of things tough.

How is that irrelevant? So you agree that both sides are untrustworthy and yet you will take these businessmen at their word because? Businessmen don't lie? Are not politically motivated? Do not have their own reasons to gain from media attention? What exactly gives you the sense that you can trust them above anyone else's word bar none? The point is you dislike Israel and that is your right however you do it to the extent where you WANT to believe the other side and you will take them at their word until proven otherwise and look at everything Israel says with a magnifying glass instead of doing that to both sides and realizing you can't really know where the truth lies from your high and lofty pearch.

So you saying I should believe the opposite, like you? The view from your lofty pearch must be nice too.
As I said, anyone can lie..but sooner or later I will have to start believing someone.
Given that multiple news agencies reported the same and the buisnissmen have little to gain, given that they ferry goods trough Israel...I'm inclined to believe them.

You see what you want. You want to believe Israel is wrong and will lie about stuff and so you see what it does as suspect and that is fine. But what isn't cool is you do that only for one side. You need to be foxified (not that I think they are fair and balanced but the idea is the right one). Be as suspicious of one side as you are of the other because as YOU said “Boith sides have lied on many occasions.” So to take one side as absolute truth is hypocritical... think about it.

I'm not being hypocritical. I filter and weight everything I hear as best as I can. The terrorists are a bunch of retarded rednecks that I would gladly strap to a rocket and shoot at the sun if I could.
There are many (negative for Israel) reports and stuff I heard that I don't believe, and thusly I haven't brought them up.

First of all let's assume you were right and the Israeli government is a terrorist organization. Do I allow them to come into my house store weapons and use it as a launching ground for attacks targeted at civilians on the other side? Do I run in the street singing praises to my god every time a bus gets suicide bombed in Gaza? Do we condemn our own government and military to account for their actions and strive to do better? Israelis are more judgmental of themselves than anyone else.

Israel has a large, advanced, full-blown military. It doesn't NEED to stock weapons inside your house. You support your troops and their actions. You support the bombing of gaza. you feel it justified just as some retard in Gaza feels it's justified that a bus was blown up. Same difference.
civilians may be more critical towards the IDF, but the government and military aren't even close to being critical enough.

The only difference between Isreal and Gaza strip is the military and technological capability. The all-out-warfare mentality is the same.
If the tables were turned, you'd be fighting a guerrila/terrorist warfare, hiding weapons in houses and fully supporting it.

[Mika]

Hheh...nice joke. Of'course, that proves nothing...since Israel can't do that even if it wanted to, due to the political consequences.
If you keep the killing on a smaller scale, and hide it, you can get away with a lot of things tough.

For me, this doesn't make any sense from militaristic or from the economical point of view.

Israel deliberately made the PLO and Fatah seem ineffectual (via blockades, etc) in order to get the Palestinians to pick different leaders. They hoped that they would get someone that they were able to deal with. They continued this policy despite several warnings that it was only leading to more extremism in Gaza and the West Bank.

Two questions: has this been official policy of Israel and are you sure that the blockades weren't there to stop something else?

The end result was that Hamas were seen as the party who could get things done. When Hamas won the election, Israel immediately refused to talk to them, claiming that they were a terrorist organisation and therefore it wouldn't deal with them. That of course simply had the effect of convincing the average Palestinian that they'd made the right choice by picking someone who pissed off Israel.

Well, isn't Hamas a terrorist organisation by EU terms also? And are you claiming that it is acceptable for Palestinian people to vote for Hamas on the basis that Hamas means pay back time for Israel?

The saddest thing about it is that I saw it coming. Hamas were building schools and hospitals while the PLO, under siege from an Israel absolutely convinced that they'd never see peace while Arafat was alive couldn't do anything. I'm sure they thought it was perfectly logical but anyone sensible could see that sooner or later this policy was going to blow up in their face.

I interprete this as that you are implying that the current problem is caused by Israeli government and is carefully planned and implemented so that Israel can retain the status quo in Palestinian issue and does not need to act or correct the situation.

Mika

[karajorma]

Never attribute to malice what can be attributed to stupidity.

Israel backed the Fatah into a corner cause they were dumb enough to think that it would result in someone more to their liking coming along. It was a pretty stupid plan as you can see it blew up in their faces.

[Commander Zane]

This thread still gives me that learning Hebrew ad. Every single time I go here.

[NGTM-1R]

Never attribute to malice what can be attributed to stupidity.

Israel backed the Fatah into a corner cause they were dumb enough to think that it would result in someone more to their liking coming along. It was a pretty stupid plan as you can see it blew up in their faces.

Gray's Law.

Any sufficently advanced stupidity is indistingushable from malice.

[Snail]

Anti-Zionist

[Mika]

Never attribute to malice what can be attributed to stupidity.

Israel backed the Fatah into a corner cause they were dumb enough to think that it would result in someone more to their liking coming along. It was a pretty stupid plan as you can see it blew up in their faces.

Before you said you blame both sides equally. But for me it seems you are not as neutral to this conflict as you think you are. The above quote leaves the blame solely to Israeli hands.

I think one of the big problems is that the Palestinians should really be treated as a separate nation in UN. If so, the international law would be much more clear. All crossings of the borderline from both sides could be seen as international incidents and perhaps acts of war as they should be.

The difficulty arises when borderlines have to be drawn to map. But it could be possible to construct an agreement that when certain amount of time (5 years?) has passed without incidents, more strategically important land area could be given back.

Then you would also need to solve the internal conflicts of the Palestinians. That is where a lot of UN personnel from impartial countries are needed. You need quite a lot to monitor the settlers also.

Mika

[karajorma]

Before you said you blame both sides equally. But for me it seems you are not as neutral to this conflict as you think you are. The above quote leaves the blame solely to Israeli hands.

No it doesn't.

If I walk into a pub, find the biggest guy and tell him I ****ed his mum, that's a pretty stupid plan too. But that doesn't mean that he's not responsible for the ensuing assault.

The discussion between us was about Israel's attempts at diplomacy. You claimed that they have attempted to solve the conflict recently by diplomatic means while I say that neither side has made any serious attempts since Oslo. The attemps Israel has made are pretty hollow. Hamas has itself offered a 10 year truce with Israel if they'll leave the occupied territories but without a pledge to give up violence that is pretty much pointless too.

They really are both as bad as each other. Hamas is responsible for all kind of xenophobia about Israel and for launching terrorist attacks against Israel while Israel is responsible for practising a doctrine of collective guilt against Gaza, the West Bank and even other nations like Lebanon and Syria.

I think one of the big problems is that the Palestinians should really be treated as a separate nation in UN. If so, the international law would be much more clear. All crossings of the borderline from both sides could be seen as international incidents and perhaps acts of war as they should be.

How the hell would you enforce that with one country currently occupying the other though? Not to mention that it would make Israel's blockade of Gaza from the sea illegal. As well as making attempts by Gaza to buy weapons perfectly legal.

[Splinter]

Hheh...nice joke. Of'course, that proves nothing...since Israel can't do that even if it wanted to, due to the political consequences.
If you keep the killing on a smaller scale, and hide it, you can get away with a lot of things tough.

There is only one flaw in this logic. And that is if killing on a smaller scale bit by bit is what Israel has been doing then first of all it would be doing it a little more often with excuses of rabid terrorists etc. Secondly if Israel wanted to get rid of the Palestinians what political consequences would there be? Yeah short term everyone would be pissed then we would switch governments and no one could blame the new one cause they didn't do it and everything would go back to normal. It would sadly be a lot easier than you think. All Israel needs to do is take its cue from Russia and do whatever the hell she wants and then say “What are you going to do about it? I dare you.”

So you saying I should believe the opposite, like you? The view from your lofty pearch must be nice too.
As I said, anyone can lie..but sooner or later I will have to start believing someone.
Given that multiple news agencies reported the same and the buisnissmen have little to gain, given that they ferry goods trough Israel...I'm inclined to believe them.

I didn't say you should believe like me. I said you should not take untrustworthy people and sources at their word. So what if multiple agencies reported the same story? This makes it true? It's usually one agency reports it and then the rest just copy the story. So how is this proof exactly? How does that smidgen of not even fact but possibility of fact give you the right to condemn a whole people of wrongdoing? The view is nice from up here it looks right onto the whole situation unfolding first hand but I suppose that is irrelevant when you can find out everything you need to know from your TV right?

And they have little to gain? Because, again, “Businessmen don't lie? Are not politically motivated? Do not have their own reasons to gain from media attention?” Tell me dearest. Does the businessman not also want Hamas endorsement or at least their blessings so they leave him alone? Does the businessman not also have a cousin or a son or daughter or uncle or nephew who is fighting Israel or is maybe imprisoned in Israel? No. He has the title businessman so that removes him from the society he lives in so he can live with his head in the clouds and all he cares about is his business. Silly me.

I'm not being hypocritical. I filter and weight everything I hear as best as I can. The terrorists are a bunch of retarded rednecks that I would gladly strap to a rocket and shoot at the sun if I could.
There are many (negative for Israel) reports and stuff I heard that I don't believe, and thusly I haven't brought them up.

What filter do you have? What kind of scales are you weighing these accounts and stories on? Because so far even though I  have shown you at reports if nothing else of how the Palestinians flat out lied about what they were doing when they were doing why they were doing etc you have yet to show me any about Israel and above and beyond that you still take their word over Israels no questions asked just because more than one media outlet reported it so it must be true. I'm glad you hate the terrorists... what about those that support them? Shelter, food, lgoistics, intel, hiding, storage? They bad people too?

First of all let's assume you were right and the Israeli government is a terrorist organization. Do I allow them to come into my house store weapons and use it as a launching ground for attacks targeted at civilians on the other side? Do I run in the street singing praises to my god every time a bus gets suicide bombed in Gaza? Do we condemn our own government and military to account for their actions and strive to do better? Israelis are more judgmental of themselves than anyone else.

Israel has a large, advanced, full-blown military. It doesn't NEED to stock weapons inside your house. You support your troops and their actions. You support the bombing of gaza. you feel it justified just as some retard in Gaza feels it's justified that a bus was blown up. Same difference.
civilians may be more critical towards the IDF, but the government and military aren't even close to being critical enough.

I supported the bombing of Gaza but I cringed every time they reported the civilian deaths even though they were initial reports and not solid numbers that is always truth somewhere to be found. They support the bombing of buses and hotels and businesses where the mission was to create civilian casualties and they dance in the street after and create images of the guys that did it and hang them on the wall. But that is the difference the IDF went on a military mission and sought out and killed terrorists and others who were not targets were also killed cause war sucks. The Hamas goes in looking to kill the civilians and ignoring the legitimate military targets and then the civilians dance in the streets.

The only difference between Isreal and Gaza strip is the military and technological capability. The all-out-warfare mentality is the same.
If the tables were turned, you'd be fighting a guerrila/terrorist warfare, hiding weapons in houses and fully supporting it.

No one can say what would or wouldn't be. As much as the world loves to think that they know what the right society should function like when given the chance they usually really cannot fathom what an absolute different planet it is in the ME. I don't believe that this situation would be the same elsewhere or if the roles were reversed I really don't. In what way I'm not sure but if wouldn't be the same thing just switched.

The difference between Israel and the Gaza strip is that one supports the purposeful targeting of civilians as a legitimate means to an end.

If I walk into a pub, find the biggest guy and  murder his mum right then and there, that's a pretty stupid plan too. And that does mean that he's responsible for the ensuing assault.

Fixed

[karajorma]

It's not fixed at all. You'd only say that if you didn't understand my point at all. How does that comment correspond to Israel's attempts to push Fatah out of power and replace them with someone more to their liking?

It doesn't. You simply took a cheap shot without any way of backing up the meaning in the context in which it was stated.

Israel spent years blockading the PLO and Fatah but the second Hamas are in charge they say that they're only willing to talk peace with Fatah (when they weren't willing with Fatah in charge). And now Israel are trying to do the same thing with Hamas even though it's obvious to anyone with half a brain that the same strategy that deposed moderates to put extremists in power is going to have no effect once you already have extremists in power.

The more you squeeze Hamas, the more they will point out to the Palestinians that it's Israel squeezing them.

[Mika]

Now that I found the inspiration to write again...

The discussion between us was about Israel's attempts at diplomacy. You claimed that they have attempted to solve the conflict recently by diplomatic means while I say that neither side has made any serious attempts since Oslo. The attemps Israel has made are pretty hollow. Hamas has itself offered a 10 year truce with Israel if they'll leave the occupied territories but without a pledge to give up violence that is pretty much pointless too.

Yes it was and at least from what I have gathered, Israel has actually recently trying to be doing what the rest of the world has told it to do (i.e. withdraw and see what happens). Unfortunately, this clearly has not worked as the rocket or mortar fire did not stop. I sure didn't get to read about this stuff on my local newspaper when it did happen, it was only mentioned in side sentences after ISRAEL INVADED GAZA!!!

There is another reason why I don't believe that Israel wouldn't have been doing its best in the recent years (meaning the time period between the end of 1990s to this day). The whole thing with Palestinians costs hell a lot of money and causes lots of different kinds of problems for Israeli imago, including the occasional embargoes. As Splinter said, the best solution for the Israeli would be to wipe it off the map, but the only thing stopping it from happening is that the Israeli have gone through the same themselves.

However, when Israel gets frustrated and ignores the UN more often (for reasons mentioned in this thread before), it is really a warning call for international community to take a good look on both sides again. The more ignoring the rest of the world happens from both sides, the greater the likelihood for total genocide IMO.

Also, I see a pattern in your texts that you do understand and have compassion towards Gazan people more often than towards Israeli people. My personal thoughts are that if the region is ever going to see peace, Gazan people should be hold just as accountable as the Israeli and should make exactly the same sized headlines whenever they don't do whatever they promised and were supposed to do, currently they don't.

They really are both as bad as each other. Hamas is responsible for all kind of xenophobia about Israel and for launching terrorist attacks against Israel while Israel is responsible for practising a doctrine of collective guilt against Gaza, the West Bank and even other nations like Lebanon and Syria.

Now, what does "collective guilt" mean in this context? I mean, it is pretty nice term to throw around, but I think that we should take a more through look at it.

How the hell would you enforce that with one country currently occupying the other though? Not to mention that it would make Israel's blockade of Gaza from the sea illegal. As well as making attempts by Gaza to buy weapons perfectly legal.

Well is Israel actually occupying Gaza? I thought the region was surrounded by a wall with checkpoint, but the police work is left for Palestinians. If it is actually occupied, then I apologize for spreading false information. The answer would be the same in both cases: replace the whole bunch with impartial UN operatives. I think Israeli are aware that if they manage to get a lasting peace with Gazans, they need to allow the free trade to that area at some point of future when the relationships have returned to less heated.

Mika

[karajorma]

Yes it was and at least from what I have gathered, Israel has actually recently trying to be doing what the rest of the world has told it to do (i.e. withdraw and see what happens). Unfortunately, this clearly has not worked as the rocket or mortar fire did not stop.

Take a good long look at the figures for 2004 compared to the years afterwards. Notice how 2005 was much lower. Do you really believe that it's a coincidence that this coincides with peace talks between the two sides and Abbas having his police try to prevent rocket attacks?

You think it's a coincidence that the number spiked upwards in 2006 after the War with Lebanon started?

Peace talks were having an effect but Israel seem to believe that they can wave a magic wand and it will all stop. Again I must point at Northern Ireland. No one in the UK really expects that it's all over forever but just because the Real IRA continued with violence after the Provisional IRA stopped is no reason to blame the Provisionals for the on-going violence and tear up the peace treaties.

Israel should have spent their time and effort supporting Abbas' attempts for peace. Instead they ignored and sidelined him hoping someone better would come along.

There is another reason why I don't believe that Israel wouldn't have been doing its best in the recent years (meaning the time period between the end of 1990s to this day). The whole thing with Palestinians costs hell a lot of money and causes lots of different kinds of problems for Israeli imago, including the occasional embargoes.

By that logic the war in Iraq never happened either.

As Splinter said, the best solution for the Israeli would be to wipe it off the map, but the only thing stopping it from happening is that the Israeli have gone through the same themselves.

And the fact that it would be the end of American support for Israel. Cause even America couldn't turn a blind eye to that.

Also, I see a pattern in your texts that you do understand and have compassion towards Gazan people more often than towards Israeli people.

My compassion for both sides is equal. But there are more dead Gazans and no one is arguing that they are blameless. If someone is stupid enough to try to argue that they are you'd hear the other side of the argument.

My personal thoughts are that if the region is ever going to see peace, Gazan people should be hold just as accountable as the Israeli and should make exactly the same sized headlines whenever they don't do whatever they promised and were supposed to do, currently they don't.

Agreed. But one thing you have to remember is that on one side you have an elected government that is responsible for their military while on the other you have at best a loose affiliation of terrorist groups who for the most part hate each other but are linked by a common hatred of Israel. Expecting a truce with any particular group to be binding on the others is pretty silly.

Now, what does "collective guilt" mean in this context?

Collective guilt is the Israeli view (which I've seen parroted on this thread several times) that the Palestinians started it so any accidental deaths of civilians will help them realise that they shouldn't start it again.

That is of course nonsense as the extremists who commit the violence care very little for civilian deaths beyond their ability to use them as PR for why the fight must continue.

Israel need to realise that every dead civilian makes peace less likely, not more.

Well is Israel actually occupying Gaza? I thought the region was surrounded by a wall with checkpoint, but the police work is left for Palestinians. If it is actually occupied, then I apologize for spreading false information.

You do realise that the West Bank would have to be part of any Palestinian state and it most definitely is occupied, right?

[TrashMan]

@Splinter

I have to say that I do sympathize with you on a level.
I know how it is to have the truth distorted by foreign news agencies, since it happened here a lot too. Not a nice feeling.

That said, while the situation is similar it also have a few destinct differences, most notably that the fight isn't going on inside your city, inside your country. You're troops are fighting on the other guys turf. And I doubt you as a civilian have gone driving trough Gaza during the bombing to see what's going there with your own eyes.
So I doubt you have personally confirmed information on exactly what was going on in Gaza city.

While I conciede that the information I have may not be completely trustworthy, again, I have to start with something. And in this I draw on the experiences from the conflict here and make comparisons.
If here, in years of conflict, no city was bombed even remotely as much as Gaza city, if in shelling of cities here the death count was not even close to the one there...what do you expect me to conclude?
If 100 destroyed houses and 20 dead are considered "overshelling" and a war crime, when the hell should the bombardment of Gaza city be in comparison? You tell me.