Author Topic: BP: War in Heaven discussion  (Read 543341 times)

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Offline Snail

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
You can't "hold" the Shivans when they start sending Dantes. And the GTVA know of Dantes since they have the records of the 14th battlegroup. Nuf said.
It's better than just committing mass suicide, which is what you would be doing otherwise.

 

Offline MatthTheGeek

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
You're depressing dudes, you always forget the most important. It seems this debate is starting every few weeks and noone learn from it. I'm just tired of repeating the same thing, I suggest you to report to the previous topics in which it was discussed.
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Offline Venicius

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
I really enjoyed the opportunity to fly against the GTVA, and by the second mission, I really did begin to hate them.  The Laporte/Simms relationship was, in my opinion distracting and I wasn't all that crazy about iy, but it was still written well.  Great job on WiH gameplay and story, can't wait to play the next part of it!

 

Offline Qent

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
You're depressing dudes, you always forget the most important. It seems this debate is starting every few weeks and noone learn from it. I'm just tired of repeating the same thing, I suggest you to report to the previous topics in which it was discussed.
Once again, it's possible that the GTVA's plan comprises much more than just closing nodes to the Shivans. I think it does.

 

Offline Ravenholme

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
You're depressing dudes, you always forget the most important. It seems this debate is starting every few weeks and noone learn from it. I'm just tired of repeating the same thing, I suggest you to report to the previous topics in which it was discussed.

So are you, and you're not contributing anything really useful - just "Feds have solution", and so far it seems to be TALKING to the Shivans, which didn't work too well for Bosch.

So, yeah, GTVA has a better solution.
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Offline The E

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
which didn't work too well for Bosch.

You are sure about this?

Also, plz2notflamewar, kthnx.
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Offline -Norbert-

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Quote
Even Laporte doesn't believe that until the end. And even then I'm not sure she believes it intellectually; she just comes to recognize the need to hate the enemy.
Are you so sure about that?
If yes then you didn't read the "recommendations" in the "Their Darkest Hour" debriefing.
It goes something like that:

Spoiler:
My fighters was covered in soot from the Valkyries explosion, consisting partially of the dead crew. I got it on my hands, flightsuit and even my face. I havn't washed since.
Now the incident with the SOC wing might have brought her back a bit, but to me it seems that she hated the GTVA even before the assasination. Maybe not as uncompromising and deeply, but still hated them.

 

Offline Snail

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
which didn't work too well for Bosch.

You are sure about this?

Also, plz2notflamewar, kthnx.
Bosch might have lots of plunder and Shivan wimmenz, but it certainly didn't work very well for 99% of his followers.

 

Offline -Sara-

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
I'll bite this time I guess, entering the discussion. Both the GTVA and UEF when looking at the whole picture deserve merit. The UEF might know more than we think they know, possibly hoping to make peace with the Shivans. The GTVA hopes to control the jump nodes, so that the Shivans (or anyone) can't pour through. I assumed Bosch might be the Shivan-elected ambassador to humankind, which might explain why the Shivans bother to communicate through Nagari people in the first place. I always say that if they wanted us dead, they'd probably throw a handful of Sathanas Juggy's at us spearheaded by the Dante herself.

Both factions are taking a gamble. The UEF cannot know for sure if the Shivans already condemned us at the start of their first invasion. The GTVA does not know the slightest of the true technological might the Shivans have. The Shivans keep surprising us, so perhaps they might be able to open nodes anywhere: it might just cost such an effort that the Shivans prefer to travel through excisting nodes. Alternately, the Shivans might be able to build a Knossos device themselves. If the ancients could, sure the Shivans can. And if there's a GTVA gate on one side of the node and a Shivan gate on the other side having a tug of war trying to close and open the node, my bet is on the Shivans every time.

Also, we do not know what the entire universe looks like. The Shivan/Vishan/former-Brahman council may only be but one of many giantic forces living in the universe. So far we only got to look at our own galaxy, the milky way, which is a tiny place. But let's not ponder on the entire universe. :P
« Last Edit: September 18, 2010, 02:35:02 pm by -Sara- »
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Offline -Norbert-

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Only the milkyway is overstating the scrope of FS2 quite a bit (a bit as in comparing a glass of water to an ocean).
There are millions of suns in our galaxy and how many systems are part of Freespace? Maybe a dozen?

 

Offline -Sara-

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
I more meant as the expected reach of the Vishans and Shivans.
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Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
You can't "hold" the Shivans when they start sending Dantes. And the GTVA know of Dantes since they have the records of the 14th battlegroup. Nuf said.

They've also never sent Dantes first. The most powerful first strike group was a Ravana. (No, not the Lucifer, :v: has explicitly stated they worked their way in through a few preliminary systems first.)

All previous encounters with the Shivans have been in the form of meeting engagements, and the GTVA actually won the battle of the intial buildup in the first stages of the Nebular Campaign. While it's a bit of an ugly plan relying on intentions rather than capablities, it is a workable one and precedent from both previous encounters with the Shivans support it.
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Offline Scotty

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Additionally, I'm not sure a Dante would be an insurmountable adversary with the capabilities of Titans and Raynors in regards to their torpedo armament, as well as beams.  Shock jumping corvettes wouldn't exactly be life threatening, but they would still hurt, especially if they use that first volley of beam fire to target an important subsystem like, say, weapons?

 

Offline -Sara-

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Additionally, I'm not sure a Dante would be an insurmountable adversary with the capabilities of Titans and Raynors in regards to their torpedo armament, as well as beams.  Shock jumping corvettes wouldn't exactly be life threatening, but they would still hurt, especially if they use that first volley of beam fire to target an important subsystem like, say, weapons?

By the looks of it 10 times the health of a Sathanas, so destructable if the GTVA would throw the majority of their fleet at it. Also has 4BFRED 24SRED and a lot of anti fighter weaponry (beams and flak) according to the wiki. I doubt said Dante travels alone however and with an escort of destroyers and perhaps one or more juggernaughts that would quickly change the odds. But, how many Dante's are there. Is it merely their ultra capital class or is it their version of the Colossus: a single super vessel and one of it's kind.
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Offline Rodo

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
You don't get it, the problem is not the type of ship they've got, the problem is their numbers.
No matter what you've got, Shivans will pwn us all for great cosmological justice.
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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
The GTVA doesn't know that, though.  From their point of view, all they see are angry Shivans who can and will unleash massive destruction on mankind at the request of an unknowable whim.  Would you not fight faceless destroyers with unknowable motives, or would you choose something that has a ridiculously slim chance of survival?
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Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
You don't get it, the problem is not the type of ship they've got, the problem is their numbers.
No matter what you've got, Shivans will pwn us all for great cosmological justice.

You clearly didn't grasp the scenario I posisted.

Hell, you clearly didn't grasp the scenario you played in FS2.
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Offline bigchunk1

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Alright I read the stickies, downloaded all the lastest stuff and I am still unable to play WIH. Ladies and gentlemen I would like to run this mod and this problem is becoming painful in the late hours of the day.

I have a new computer, so I transferred all my old files to it with no issues. The 3.6.12 FS2 retail campaign runs fine. Now when I run the mod with the core, visuals 1, visuals 2 and audio all packed in a file titled blueplanetWIH, I get this most frustrating error...

bp2-wep.tbm(line 789:
Error: Required token = [#End] or [$Name:], found [+Unknown Miss Factor:               1.4 1.]
in weapon: SRed
.

ntdll.dll! ZwWaitForSingleObject + 21 bytes
kernel32.dll! WaitForSingleObjectEx + 67 bytes
kernel32.dll! WaitForSingleObject + 18 bytes
fs2_open_3_6_12r_INF_RC2.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_12r_INF_RC2.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_12r_INF_RC2.exe! <no symbol>
<no module>! <no symbol>
<no module>! <no symbol>
<no module>! <no symbol>
<no module>! <no symbol>
<no module>! <no symbol>
<no module>! <no symbol>
<no module>! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_12r_INF_RC2.exe! <no symbol>
<no module>! <no symbol>
<no module>! <no symbol>
<no module>! <no symbol>

I don't know what to make of this. I see the word INF in there, so is there something going on with that? I checked for the most recent version and as far as I know I have it. Anyone up late? I would like to be defending earth as quickly as possible.
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
You are not using 3.6.12 final, but RC2l. Please use final, it'll solve that error.

In addition please rename your War in Heaven folder to blueplanet2 or you could hit serious trouble in the future.

 

Offline Ypoknons

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
I think the GTVA's strategy with containing a Shivan invasion is quite good, and they did successfully enact and carry out their contingency plan for evacuating an inhibited star system in the Second Great War. What bothers me more, at least in the BP backstory, is that Capella seems to have magnified the GTVA's weaknesses as a governing body. This can be seen in GTVA's performance in dealing with the aftermath - slow economic recovery, increasing regionalism and strained diplomatic relations with the Vasudans and now the UEF civil war. Reduced Terran-Vasudan officer exchanges, for example, hampers coordination between fleets in case of an invasion. Continuing economic problems makes the GTVA a less attractive government, contributes to secessionist activity, and may hamper fleet building. These deficiencies are already undermining and will continue to undermine the GTVA's ability to coordinate its activities and deal with the Shivan threat and other threats to humanity, and, depending on the severity of these issues, may eventually threaten the GTVA's continuation as a political entity. Success is more than just a ideological choice between 'vigilance' and 'negotiation' but also a matter of expediency and effectiveness in government. In light of repeated Shivan invasions, a test of good governance is that the GTVA recovers from crisis, not just stopping the incursions but thereafter regaining strength socially and economically. Whilst returning to Sol held the GTVA together, even if they win the civil war, it doesn't exactly fix the long-terms diplomatic and governance issues.

It's possible to take a "well, if humanity is dumb enough to reject the GTVA, then it deserves to end" kind of opinion, but I don't think it's that simple.

I do not propose the UEF as an ideal solution to these problems. I agree with the GTVI opinion that the UEF is a product of its circumstances, and if it were to take on the GTVA's role, it would be a very different animal. Its military preparedness is probably not at GTVA levels, and that is a definite problem. However, I find the GTVI's view on the threat of mass emigration to Sol quite extraordinary - is the GTVA that bad at serving its citizens needs or Ubuntu that good? The UEF's amazing success at realigning Sol's economy and socio-political situation after losing all interstellar contact is quite incredible, the amount of redistribution of resources in the economy, for example, would have caused disturbances fatal to many governments (the Sol GTA's failed command economy being one example).

As for the talking to aliens situation, I think I'll have to see WiH R2 first. We know these people exist - the Beis, Noemi; there are other, possibly - the prophet, the Elders, Lt Ash, FS1 Alpha One, Bosch, maybe others. We'll have to see. I think the resolution of the situation also depends on what the Vishnans meant in the dialogue with Bei at the end of AoA as well.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2010, 05:00:06 am by Ypoknons »
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