Author Topic: BP: War in Heaven discussion  (Read 523026 times)

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Offline -Norbert-

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
What they meant and how honest they were with it.
Just because they tell Bei something, doesn't mean it's really true.

The team said often enough that the Vishnans have their own agenda and everything we know about them is what they told Bei. The only thing that Humanity knows for sure about the Vishnans is their combat performance and even there Samuel seemed to have had a big impact on tactics, both directly (by giving orders) and indirectly (by the knowledge the Vishnans pulled out of his brain).
« Last Edit: September 19, 2010, 05:00:49 am by -Norbert- »

 

Offline Ypoknons

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
They might have said things which are intended to bring about a certain result without being completely honest or dishonest. Plus, with things that vague, it's always open to interpretation, or even our interpretation of the BP team.
Long time ago, you see, there was this thing called the VBB and... oh, nevermind.

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
For that matter, simply because we can talk to the Shivans doesn't mean they're going to listen. They wouldn't listen to the Vishnans, who are in an infinitely stronger posistion to hold a rational discussion with an entity like the Shivans. If you accept the numbers argument people throw about against the GTVA, then you also accept that the Shivans don't need to listen to either side. They can crush everybody with equal ease. This isn't a species with a track record that suggests benevolence.
"Load sabot. Target Zaku, direct front!"

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Offline -Norbert-

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
On the other hand you can't just map the Shivans actions in the other universe over to ours.
When the Vishnans tried to talk the Shivans out of fighting, they argued about the destruction of the 14th battlegroup plus the Sanctuary. They didn't argue about the third Shivan incursion.

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
So you're saying they're not arguing about trying to wipe out humanity? Because that's what both discussions would be at the core.

In the alternate universe they didn't want to leave the job unfinished in form of the Sanctuary, and they added 14th Battlegroup to the targetlist despite their nature as being essentially strangers who just want to go home. The Shivans didn't HAVE to hit 14th Battlegroup on the way out. They could have focused on the Sanctuary. So not only did they want to wipe out all that remained of humanity in that universe, they wanted to wipe out all humans period.

The really scary thing though is that they wouldn't listen to the Vishnans, who are their equals. Humanity is at best a child and at worst an anthill in comparison. Why should the Shivans even bother to discuss anything with us if they don't accept the judgements of their equals?

For that matter, even in the regular FS Universe the Shivans have never showed a real capacity for mercy. They kept attacking convoys out of Capella long after it should have been obvious the GTVA didn't have the resources insystem to upset their plans. The Lucifer fleet was completely indiscriminate in target selection and neither asked nor offered quarter. Now, there is a slim (very slim) possiblity that the Shivans were provoked both times, but the response in either case wasn't remotely proportional either. This does not paint a picture of a race that is accustomed to leaving survivors.
"Load sabot. Target Zaku, direct front!"

A Feddie Story

 

Offline -Norbert-

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
There is a difference between stepping on 5 ants and taking out an entire anthill....

Apart from that we don't know for sure wether the Shivans are interdimensional like the Vishnans appear to be (which again doesn't necessarily mean they really are), so maybe in our universe the Vishnans and Shivans are still a happy family.

In that argument the Vishnans said something along those lines
"One species is now annihilated, do you seek to destroy the other as well?"
But the Vasudans were only wiped out in the other universe, which to me is a pretty good indicator that they weren't talking about any inter-dimensional battle, but only about that particular universe.
In addition to that, it's been two years since that moment and the Shivans still didn't attack.
Now maybe they have some kind of feudal system and need that much time to muster an invasion force, but I somhow doubt that very much.

 

Offline Scotty

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Quote
There is a difference between stepping on 5 ants and taking out an entire anthill....

Not when the hill is home to only five or six ants.

 

Offline bigchunk1

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
AAH problems problems problems! I took battuta's advice and things are working... better, but I got this in game error message message right after the FS2 intro cutscene saying "The currently active mod has generated 37 warnings and\or errors during program startup. These could have been caused by anything from incorrectly formatted table files to corrupt modules... ...Source code project staff cannot provide assistance or support for these problems, as they are caused by the mod's data files, not Freespace open's source code."

Mediavps runs error free. It seems the error triggers only when I try to run WIH. If I press 'ok' when I see the error message, I can get to the flight deck. I am able to run "The blade itself", which I must say after having played it was quite an unexpected surprise. I must have gone through that mission 5 or so times by now. The UEF main battle frigate is pretty cool, let alone being able to control one. I was very excited to see that kind of innovative gameplay. I kept trying to see how well I could dance around enemy Deimos corvettes while feeding them large missiles.
 From what I have read on the forums, many people have said cap ship missions don't work. I think this one worked quite well. I thought It was pretty well balanced too. I hope this is the start of more such missions as the campaign description implied.

Anyways However, when I try to run the main campaign for WIH off the flight deck I get this error message. Last night, It's appearance was so discouraging that it put me to sleep. Keep in mind this is after seeing the previous message and hitting 'Ok'.

asystem Gate"
      "UEI Bretonia"
      "Scimitar"
   )
   ( tech-add-intel
      "Shivans in the Great War"
      "The Second Incursion"
      "The Post-Capella GTVA"
      "Earth"
      "Aken Bosch"
      "Vasudans"
      "Hammer of Light"
      "The Ancients"
      "Shivans"
      "Subspace"
      "The Rift"
      "The Rift Part 2"
      "Vasudan Mysticism"
      "Vasudan Mysticism part 2"
      "Project Nagari"
      "Project Nagari Part 2"
      "Vishnans and the 14th BG"
      "Vishnans - What We Know"
      "The Reunion"
      "The Reunion Part 2"
      "The Balance of Power"
      "The Balance of Power Part 2"
      "The Balance of Power Part 3"
      "The Balance of Power Part 4"
      "The Balance of Power Part 5"
      "United Earth Federation"
      "The Council of Elders"
      "The Fedayeen"
      "The Gaian Effort"
   )
   ( allow-weapon "Gattler" )
)
(Error appears to be: Mass Driver#Karuna)
File: missionparse.cpp
Line: 5388

ntdll.dll! ZwWaitForSingleObject + 21 bytes
kernel32.dll! WaitForSingleObjectEx + 67 bytes
kernel32.dll! WaitForSingleObject + 18 bytes
fs2_open_3_6_12r_INF.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_12r_INF.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_12r_INF.exe! <no symbol>
atioglxx.dll! atiPS + 2878517 bytes
<no module>! <no symbol>
<no module>! <no symbol>
<no module>! <no symbol>
<no module>! <no symbol>
<no module>! <no symbol>
<no module>! <no symbol>
<no module>! <no symbol>
<no module>! <no symbol>
<no module>! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_12r_INF.exe! <no symbol>
<no module>! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_12r_INF.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_12r_INF.exe! <no symbol>
<no module>! <no symbol>

I have the core, visuals 1 and visuals 2 installed as well as audio. all the vps are in a folder titled blueplanet2. I downloaded INF http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=70692.0 here so I don't think that's the problem this time even though I see INF a lot in that error message. I have been continually trying to reorder files to see if that's the issue but from what I can see, everything is in its rightful place.
BP Multi
The Antagonist
Zacam: Uh. No, using an effect is okay. But you are literally using the TECHROOM ani as the weapon effect.

 

Offline The E

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Please post a debug log. Instructions for how to do tihis are in the FSO FAQ, which is found here: http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=56279.0

I suspect the error to be a missing or not updated BP: AoA.
Let there be light
Let there be moon
Let there be stars and let there be you
Let there be monsters and let there be pain
Let us begin to feel again
--Devin Townsend, Genesis

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Yeah, I'm guessing you didn't update your AoA install to the latest version. It may not be located in the 'blueplanet' folder either.

 

Offline -Norbert-

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Quote
There is a difference between stepping on 5 ants and taking out an entire anthill....

Not when the hill is home to only five or six ants.
Some people must find it hilarious to pull a metaphor out of context....

Okay let's go a bit deeper:
The 5 ants are the 14th battlegroup and the Sanctuary.
The anthill is the whole GTVA.

Are you trying to tell me that the whole GTVA has the same number of people living in it, as the combined crews of the 14th battlegroups ships and the ones sleeping in the Sanctuary?

To wipe out that convoy from AoA the Shivans would only need a single Sathanas jumping in behind them and in range. Before the bombers could scratch the paint off the beamguns or the capships could turn and bring their heavy beams to bear, the 14th battlegroup would be a cloud of molten metal.
Wiping out the GTVA requires a lot more effort and fleet assets, not to mention the possible reconstruction of a node into their terretory.

 

Offline Scotty

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Quote
The 5 ants are the 14th battlegroup and the Sanctuary.
The anthill is the whole GTVA.

Counter-interpretation:
The five ants are the 14th battlegroup and the Sanctuary.
The anthill is the entire human race in that universe.

 

Offline -Norbert-

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
The thing you quoted isn't an interpretation, but an explenation of what I to express with that metaphor. Since it states very clearly what I meant, there is no room for interpretations.

 

Offline Scotty

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Then you should probably have picked a better metaphor if you didn't want an alternate interpretation that conflicts with your own.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
You have to decide whether your metaphor is about red ants or black ants.

 

Offline -Norbert-

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Quote
Then you should probably have picked a better metaphor if you didn't want an alternate interpretation that conflicts with your own.
Maybe, but I didn't choose it, I just replyed to it, after NGTM-R1 chose that metaphor. What upset me a bit yesterday was, that you didn't quote the actual metaphor (at which point different interpretations are only natural - even though I still think the context shows pretty clearly what I meant in the first place), but rather you quoted my explenation of how I meant it for your comment.

Color?
If the GTVA humans are the red ones and the UEF the black.... does that make the Vasudans termites?
And what are the Shivans, since they are far more "swarming" still?

 

Offline Commander Zane

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Shivans would be army ants. :D

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
shivans are the delicious sashila

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Maybe, but I didn't choose it, I just replyed to it, after NGTM-R1 chose that metaphor. What upset me a bit yesterday was, that you didn't quote the actual metaphor (at which point different interpretations are only natural - even though I still think the context shows pretty clearly what I meant in the first place), but rather you quoted my explenation of how I meant it for your comment.

Hey, it's my metaphor to define! However context is irrevelant; Snail is perfectly correct in his assertion that they do constitute the entire anthill in the alternate universe, and the Shivans did try to kill them all.

(Batts is poking fun at your obtuseness. And possibly Snail's.)
"Load sabot. Target Zaku, direct front!"

A Feddie Story

 

Offline Scotty

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Snail? :wtf: