[mjn.mixael]

I'm upgrading FS2, not FS1. Just so happens, I'll be using it for both because it's a beautiful model.

Detail is all over the place because, well you just can't model that much detail and expect FSO to keep it. This thing already has 3 detail boxes. The rest I can do with textures.

Now.. Black Wolf. Firstly, the ONLY portion of this that changed significantly from Ragingloli's model is the center hole area. So saying that you can see hodgepodges all over is you making things up.

Oh, also, I highly resent the implication that I picked this up as a "quick fix" for my cutscene project. This was no quick fix... go look at the OP date. I've been working on this for a LONG time trying to clean it up and make it FSO compatible. If I wanted a quick fix, then I wouldn't have even bothered to do all that. It's also no "quick fix" that I'll be UV mapping and texturing this. Considering it took me a couple days to UV a fighter, this is going to take much, MUCH longer. (Still quick?) If there's anything I've proved in my time around here, it's that I don't cut many corners and I still put out a crapton of stuff.

No.. I picked up this one because I think the model straight up awesome and I'm tired of ugly retail Arcadia and no one else seemed to be working on it.

Now that I've pissed people off in two threads and it's only 10am here. I'm going to go eat breakfast and watch the poo hit the fan.

[Mobius]

What about creating two separate installations? Keep the blocky one for the FSPort and mediavps, and release the other one (perhaps with more turrets?) as a new installation class, with a different name.

[mjn.mixael]

Um... no. That would contradict canon.

Also, FSPort has made no decisions on this model and if it will even work in the mod. Lay off the FS1 people. This is FSU.

[Mobius]

Do you mind explaining us how that would contradict canon? You'd have:

1) A blocky Arcadia for the mediavps and FSPort, similar to the original;

2) A curvy Arcadia, released as a separate model, to be used in mods as a next generation Arcadia. As a completely different model, it could have more turrets (just a suggestion);

[mjn.mixael]

Sorry, I thought you meant leave this one for FS2 and use retail for FS1. My bad.

Meh.. whatevs. I know which model will be MY Arcadia. (The one that doesn't look like a tile mapping monster puked on wooden block)

[The E]

Okay, reposting a bit from irc here:

(4:13:42 PM) Wanderer: that is not exactly a good solution either - new one looks so different that should be arcadia II rather than HTL arcadia
(4:14:57 PM) The_E: Too bad that it's useless to argue about this
(4:15:13 PM) MjnMixael: do whatever you like.. I'll be using this one as my Arcadia until a better one is made
(4:15:26 PM) Wanderer: to argue against modelling? that is true... but i certainly will argue against adding it to mediavps
(4:16:05 PM) The_E: Wanderer: The problem is, it's very much a question of individual tastes
(4:16:47 PM) Wanderer: true. which necessites that there should be a consensus before something is changed
(4:17:13 PM) MjnMixael: or that there should be a FINISHED model before there is a consensus
(4:17:44 PM) The_E: Wanderer: I would agree with you, IF this was a case similar to TrashMan's Typhon
(4:19:44 PM) Wanderer: what sets this case apart - in your opinion?
(4:19:44 PM) The_E: As it is, I believe it is better to have a new model in there, even if it is somewhat controversial, than to leave it out just for the sake of not stepping on anyones toes
(4:20:11 PM) The_E: What sets this case apart is the quality of the work on display
(4:21:45 PM) The_E: Whether you agree with the specific design choices made or not, I think you'll agree when I say that it is really well executed.
(4:22:55 PM) The_E: So the question is, should we leave stuff out of the mediavps just because a vocal part of the community thinks that it's not what they wanted to see from the model?
(4:23:39 PM) The_E: Same for the new Typhon, should that one be left out as well because people think it's not FS1-ish enough?
(4:24:16 PM) Wanderer: that depends... vasudan models in fs always left more to imagination that purposedly blocky terran models
(4:24:54 PM) Wanderer: than
(4:25:19 PM) The_E: But couldn't the same be said of the terran models?
(4:27:16 PM) Wanderer: terran models featured hard edges, not rounded surfaces.. in general... i'm having much more difficulty in imagining hard edged flat panel as curved plated in terran designs than i am having with more organic shaped vasudan designs
(4:28:10 PM) The_E: Well, as MjnMixael said, a lot depends on the texture.
(4:29:19 PM) Wanderer: perhaps... however in retail arcadia textures i couldnt see anything even hinting of it being curved or rounded
(4:29:39 PM) MjnMixael: oh.. because of awesome tile textures?
(4:29:51 PM) MjnMixael: maybe if I tile it, people will be happy.. :/
(4:31:45 PM) The_E: At any rate, the general sentiment underlying my arguments is this. The MediaVPs are, to me, a testament to and celebration of the community, and what they do. As far as I am concerned, unless we have the luxury of choosing between several interpretations of the same design (See: Sathanas, Typhon), we should not leave stuff out that was provided by the community just because some people think it's not what they wanted.
(4:33:11 PM) MjnMixael: The_E: you should post that
(4:34:08 PM) Wanderer: all depends on what exactly is the role of the mediavps
(4:35:19 PM) The_E: Make FS2 look better. Utilize the possibilities of FS_Open to make FS2 look as fresh as we can make it.
(4:35:40 PM) Wanderer: first part i agree.. second part i don't
(4:36:04 PM) MjnMixael: probably because of the current argument...
(4:36:57 PM) MjnMixael: I wonder if that state was posted during a time when there were no controversial models being discussed... would people dissagree with teh statement
(4:37:04 PM) Wanderer: no... simply cause in my opinion that is not what mediavps should be doing. hell why dont rewrite the main campaign while you are at it to make it more fresh?
(4:37:27 PM) The_E: Because the writing and mission design are still good enough.
(4:37:45 PM) MjnMixael: oh.. so you are one of the people who wants us to upgrade the retail assets while keeping them the same...
(4:38:46 PM) Wanderer: no. i just want the improved assets to stay true to the retail assets
(4:39:12 PM) MjnMixael: XD
(4:39:14 PM) The_E: But that is a very purist stance
(4:39:51 PM) MjnMixael is now known as MjnMixael|AWAY
(4:39:55 PM) The_E: Look, if we had concept art from V that showed us what the "true" Arcadia looked like before it was translated into polygons, then we wouldn't have this argument
(4:40:21 PM) The_E: Then we could point and say "This is not what the designer intended"
(4:40:33 PM) The_E: As it stands, there is room for interpretation
(4:41:11 PM) The_E: And I, for one, am unwilling to tell people who want to work on FS stuff to keep it the same, just better.
(4:41:28 PM) The_E: That's the sort of thinking that brought us TrashMans Typhon

[Kolgena]

Heh. I like the punchline about trashman's loltyphon. (No offense to trashman)

I quite like the curvy arcadia, and think it's fine as is even in FSPort. The curves used look like they're arcs of circles for the most part, which still looks quite solid/rugged/terran for its simplicity. Vasudan curves are all over the place and far more organic, so in comparison I don't think its design has migrated to FS2 vasudan-terran architecture as much as a lot of people suggest.

To be fair though, pretty much everything made by ragingloli is freaking epic, but has a very distinct feel from the rest of FS, either retail or MVP. Doesn't mean that we shouldn't use the assets though, like The_E said.

(Also, the original Arcadia particularly suffers from blobitis. It's a huuuge installation with a few dozen polies and a massively tiled texture. It's hard to read much detail out of that without concept art.)

[Rodo]

WOW, really?... was all that argument necessary?

This MUST go into the mvp's, anyone arguing it's too far from the retail model to be added, can later on either create it's own personal model or use the retail one.
Be a grown up and do that.

These lines I just read on the thread are not about people talking on model profile and compatibility, you are just using those topics to keep fueling an unnecessary dispute with "acceptable" reasons.

BTW MJN, this is pure win

[Shivan Hunter]

This Arcadia is changed way too much from the original because it has more polygons. You need to stay true to the original and have less polygons so the geometry is the same as it was.

(I don't even think this is a strawman anymore. This is where purists' arguments all logically end up.)

[Commander Zane]

**** the truists that want new content to be the exact same pixel-for-pixel. It looks a lot better than Retail regardless. Get over it.

[Rga_Noris]

My stance on Terran ships is that they need to look industrial and utility-esque, blocky be damned. The Herc has curve in the cockpit and engines, yet no one would argue its Terran-ness. The Arcadia is, without a doubt, industrial and thus very very Terran.

[mjn.mixael]

Here's the way I see it.

There's 3 people groups to consider.

• Freespace vets who like the new model
• Freespace vets who don't like the new model
• Players new to Freespace

Now, the first two categories explain themselves. The third (new people) category is a group that is not looking at things through nostalgia glasses. In fact, it could be argued that because they never saw the original Arcadia as a staple of Terran design, they would probably choose the new one because it looks better and CAN WORK as an Arcadia installation.

Now, to those in the second group (those who don't like the new model)... Fine, whatever. This is an internet forum where people rarely if ever change their minds (or admit it even if they did). It's a matter of taste and if you don't like it, there's nothing I can do at this point to please you. However, if you are going to use your distaste of it to argue against it being included in the MediaVPs, I have something against that.

Why should the other two groups of people have to stare at the retail Arcadia simply because the new one doesn't fit into your likings? Did you like every single model that  made in retail? Do you REALLY expect to have every upgraded asset to match perfectly to your vision of upgraded freespace? Should you really be expecting every new asset to please everyone?

Lastly, should you really argue against this model, when this vp is so readily available for you to replace it if it were to be included in the MediaVPs?

Now.. kindly take all the poo and throw it as if your life depended on it. I'm going to go play a happy game!

[Nyctaeus]

FSU vision of the second group is Upgraded Freespace, vision of the first group is changing everything because "they likes curvy ships because they thinks curvy ships looks better" o___O. You can change everything in mods, but clear Freespace must stay unaffected. We shouldn't change anything big, like shapes of orginal models because we only refreshing it, not recreating with our own tastes.

[mjn.mixael]

FSU vision of the second group is Upgraded Freespace, vision of the first group is changing everything because "they likes curvy ships because they thinks curvy ships looks better" o___O. You can change everything in mods, but clear Freespace must stay unaffected. We shouldn't change anything big, like shapes of orginal models because we only refreshing it, not recreating with our own tastes.

 

[Hades]

I'm going the other end of the spectrum and say that the curviness is the best thing that happened to the Arcadia.

I definitely agree here. I think it looks fine curvy and fits equally well in both games.

[Rga_Noris]

There is no reason this should be excluded from the MVP's. If you do not like it, use the .vp MjnMixael provided. Simple as that. If another one pops up that people like more, then great. It would be stupid to not include this version in the next MVP's. Keeping it retail would just be unfathomably idiotic.

[The E]

FSU vision of the second group is Upgraded Freespace, vision of the first group is changing everything because "they likes curvy ships because they thinks curvy ships looks better" o___O. You can change everything in mods, but clear Freespace must stay unaffected. We shouldn't change anything big, like shapes of orginal models because we only refreshing it, not recreating with our own tastes.

Way to misinterpret what was being said.

1. The basic shape of the Arcadia is unaffected. It is still recognizably an Arcadia.
2. "Recreating with our own tastes" is exactly what we (or rather, mjnmixael) is doing. You would do the same, given reversed positions. It's just that your taste is different from his. I am looking forward to your Arcadia though.
ALL models in the MVPs have varying degrees of artistic license applied. Every. Single. One. You want FS to stay the same it has been all this time. Which, as I said before, is the thinking that brought us TrashMan's Typhon.

In short, Haters gonna hate.

[Dragon]

There once was a more blocky HTL Arcadia, I recall that at least two people were once working on different versions (Vasudan Admiral and Ragingloli, perhaps, maybe also Trashman).
Mjn.mixael just decided to work on this one.
It would be nice it somebody found and started to work on one of the other versions, so people who like Arcadia blocky, with a circular hole, etc. would simply be able to use another version and stop complaining about this one.

EDIT: It looks like there were at least 4 different WiPs of HTL Arcadia when Mjn.mixael started work on his, so if somebody wants to finish one of them, there's plenty to chose from.

[Mobius]

Sure, but that wouldn't put an end to the debate. Only one Arcadia will make it to the mediavps.

[Rga_Noris]

...and until someone pops another one out, there will be no question. This one will go in.