[General Battuta]

My apologies, I had a brain fart.  Though in my case it would probably be more like a corpse blowing open, but either way, I'm sorry.  And I'd love to read the tech room for BP again.  But I redownloaded it and when it's the selected mod, the launcher goes nuts and 3.6.12 crashes on pilot select.

Huh that is really annoying. Have you tried WXLauncher and creating a new pilot? We should try to fix this.

[MatthTheGeek]

They're protagonists in WiH, but not in AoA but I'd have to say that I personally have more emotional attachment to the GTVA, since every campaign (in the FS universe) I've played, except for this year, has them as the protagonist.

The way I see it:
The UEF fights emotionally - either completely damning violence, or going on a quest for vengeance (See Pawns on a Board of Bone). Yes the GTVA is going up against an unknown force in the Shivans - but they're doing their best to gain tactical and technological ground. Remember what Sam Bei said "Even if we die today, we will embody the true spirit of a GTVA pilot, fighting against the odds to protect those we love." That appears to be the philosophy of the Tevs in WiH - an honorable death against the odds is a fine one (very similar to the Berserks in Viking epics) that's the very thing that makes them a superior force to the UEF armada - a willingness to take losses and die, and a willingness to use every available technology to take down as many enemies as they can.

That whole post considers that the GTVA Bei fought for during AoA is the same GTVA we fight in WiH. The last mission of AoA made it pretty clear that, at least for Bei, that GTVA doesn't exist anymore, and that's the very reason Bei defected to the UEF.

Even with the example of Capella, the tech room makes it very clear that it was a tactical miracle pulled off by the GTVA.

That's what we usually call propaganda dear sir.

[Mars]

That section of the tech room is actually written as 3rd person history, it doesn't really lend a great deal of bias either way.

[Pred the Penguin]

They're protagonists in WiH, but not in AoA but I'd have to say that I personally have more emotional attachment to the GTVA, since every campaign (in the FS universe) I've played, except for this year, has them as the protagonist.

The way I see it:
The UEF fights emotionally - either completely damning violence, or going on a quest for vengeance (See Pawns on a Board of Bone). Yes the GTVA is going up against an unknown force in the Shivans - but they're doing their best to gain tactical and technological ground. Remember what Sam Bei said "Even if we die today, we will embody the true spirit of a GTVA pilot, fighting against the odds to protect those we love." That appears to be the philosophy of the Tevs in WiH - an honorable death against the odds is a fine one (very similar to the Berserks in Viking epics) that's the very thing that makes them a superior force to the UEF armada - a willingness to take losses and die, and a willingness to use every available technology to take down as many enemies as they can.

That whole post considers that the GTVA Bei fought for during AoA is the same GTVA we fight in WiH. The last mission of AoA made it pretty clear that, at least for Bei, that GTVA doesn't exist anymore, and that's the very reason Bei defected to the UEF.

Even with the example of Capella, the tech room makes it very clear that it was a tactical miracle pulled off by the GTVA.

That's what we usually call propaganda dear sir.

And Tevs are already used to dying in large numbers. That could explain why they keep on making bigger ships. The firepower to them is worth the risk of more lives.

[MatthTheGeek]

Well no. If you looks at the new Tev designs, they have completely abandoned the idea of Colossus-grade massive warships to go with a fleet comprised mainly of corvettes, with only a few destroyers leading em. They want small, nimble ships with enough firepower to be efficient (contrary to cruisers) but small enough to not be critical losses and be mass-produced (contrary to desties and above).

[Pred the Penguin]

Completely slipped my mind. :facepalm: The destroyers are big though!

[MatthTheGeek]

They're big (bigger than their Capella-era counterpart), but there's very few of em (two dozens on the tev side, probably a similar number for the zods, 3 for the UEF). They're only flagships, carriers and command centers, and are rarely sortied as heavy hitters. Corvettes probably number in the hundreds, and they form the core of the Tev fleet, just like Karunas for the core of the UEF fleet.

[-Norbert-]

They're protagonists in WiH, but not in AoA but I'd have to say that I personally have more emotional attachment to the GTVA, since every campaign (in the FS universe) I've played, except for this year, has them as the protagonist.

The way I see it:
The UEF fights emotionally - either completely damning violence, or going on a quest for vengeance (See Pawns on a Board of Bone). Yes the GTVA is going up against an unknown force in the Shivans - but they're doing their best to gain tactical and technological ground. Remember what Sam Bei said "Even if we die today, we will embody the true spirit of a GTVA pilot, fighting against the odds to protect those we love." That appears to be the philosophy of the Tevs in WiH - an honorable death against the odds is a fine one (very similar to the Berserks in Viking epics) that's the very thing that makes them a superior force to the UEF armada - a willingness to take losses and die, and a willingness to use every available technology to take down as many enemies as they can.

That whole post considers that the GTVA Bei fought for during AoA is the same GTVA we fight in WiH. The last mission of AoA made it pretty clear that, at least for Bei, that GTVA doesn't exist anymore, and that's the very reason Bei defected to the UEF.

Apart from what Matt said, how is fighting technologically and numerically inferiour pacifists (including blowing up civilian ships and structures and bombarding Luna) "protecting those we love" and "fighting against the odds"?

[Rodo]

These are just side effects to the unification plan.

I bet you'll see two different solutions to the same problem, each faction has it's own way to deal with the Shivan problem, we'll just have to wait to see which one is the correct one.. if there is a correct way to handle that problem.

[Buckshee Rounds]

These are just side effects to the unification plan.

I bet you'll see two different solutions to the same problem, each faction has it's own way to deal with the Shivan problem, we'll just have to wait to see which one is the correct one.. if there is a correct way to handle that problem.

Well the GTVA's solution seems to work well enough although given enough time there won't be any nodes left to cut off.

[-Norbert-]

It did work the first time, but now the Shivans know that "solution". Will it work a second time? Or a third time?
With the Shivans adaptability I wouldn't count on the node-collapse being a secure strategy.

[Mars]

They're protagonists in WiH, but not in AoA but I'd have to say that I personally have more emotional attachment to the GTVA, since every campaign (in the FS universe) I've played, except for this year, has them as the protagonist.

The way I see it:
The UEF fights emotionally - either completely damning violence, or going on a quest for vengeance (See Pawns on a Board of Bone). Yes the GTVA is going up against an unknown force in the Shivans - but they're doing their best to gain tactical and technological ground. Remember what Sam Bei said "Even if we die today, we will embody the true spirit of a GTVA pilot, fighting against the odds to protect those we love." That appears to be the philosophy of the Tevs in WiH - an honorable death against the odds is a fine one (very similar to the Berserks in Viking epics) that's the very thing that makes them a superior force to the UEF armada - a willingness to take losses and die, and a willingness to use every available technology to take down as many enemies as they can.

That whole post considers that the GTVA Bei fought for during AoA is the same GTVA we fight in WiH. The last mission of AoA made it pretty clear that, at least for Bei, that GTVA doesn't exist anymore, and that's the very reason Bei defected to the UEF.

Apart from what Matt said, how is fighting technologically and numerically inferiour pacifists (including blowing up civilian ships and structures and bombarding Luna) "protecting those we love" and "fighting against the odds"?

I was showing a culture of being willing to die in the military. I wasn't saying anything about the current war, other than GTVA fighters are more willing to die for their cause in general.

[Buckshee Rounds]

It did work the first time, but now the Shivans know that "solution". Will it work a second time? Or a third time?
With the Shivans adaptability I wouldn't count on the node-collapse being a secure strategy.

If the GTVA shuts them off fast enough then there shouldn't be a problem, but I catch your drift. The only truly practical limitation is how many bombs and how many million-ton ships they can afford to throw away, plus how quickly they can get them ready. It would be a real kicker to find out that the Shivans traversed some unknown, unstable node too, making all those efforts for nought.

I was showing a culture of being willing to die in the military. I wasn't saying anything about the current war, other than GTVA fighters are more willing to die for their cause in general.

I don't think they're more willing to die - noone really is - but they just don't give a sh*t. That's the only real difference between the UEF and GTVA, otherwise they're both quite similar. The Feds are as you said: they're sensitive to 'right' and 'wrong' and keeping to the rules of war. Even in Delenda Est where the Wargods were at their most aggressive they still offered Lopez a chance to surrender. The 'no civilian' aspect of BETAC is the Tev's side of the mercy coin. The difference being they can choose to ignore it via the "total war clause", where as I doubt the Feds would bomb civvies...not yet anyway.

EDIT: I think the last two pages of this topic should be merged with General Discussion.

[Mars]

I don't think they're more willing to die - noone really is - but they just don't give a sh*t. That's the only real difference between the UEF and GTVA, otherwise they're both quite similar. The Feds are as you said: they're sensitive to 'right' and 'wrong' and keeping to the rules of war. Even in Delenda Est where the Wargods were at their most aggressive they still offered Lopez a chance to surrender. The 'no civilian' aspect of BETAC is the Tev's side of the mercy coin. The difference being they can choose to ignore it via the "total war clause", where as I doubt the Feds would bomb civvies...not yet anyway.

They're rather willing in general to throw civilian lives away by the end - Pawns on a Board of Bone. The whole point of that is that they lost themselves.

The funny part about the GTVA total war clause is that they still give the civilians a chance to surrender - the first mission of WiH for instance. It's not like they randomly kill civilians for the hell of it.

EDIT: I think the last two pages of this topic should be merged with General Discussion.

Agreed, but I think the BP discussion thread might do better.

[The E]

They're rather willing in general to throw civilian lives away by the end - Pawns on a Board of Bone. The whole point of that is that they lost themselves.

You are inferring a general shift in UEF military behaviour from the behaviour of one task force. That is a wrong thing to do.

[Mars]

They're rather willing in general to throw civilian lives away by the end - Pawns on a Board of Bone. The whole point of that is that they lost themselves.

You are inferring a general shift in UEF military behaviour from the behaviour of one task force. That is a wrong thing to do.

I was actually referring just to the Wargods, but I by no means made that clear at all. I just got back from a run, so I'm probably making little sense; sorry!

[Buckshee Rounds]

I don't think they're more willing to die - noone really is - but they just don't give a sh*t. That's the only real difference between the UEF and GTVA, otherwise they're both quite similar. The Feds are as you said: they're sensitive to 'right' and 'wrong' and keeping to the rules of war. Even in Delenda Est where the Wargods were at their most aggressive they still offered Lopez a chance to surrender. The 'no civilian' aspect of BETAC is the Tev's side of the mercy coin. The difference being they can choose to ignore it via the "total war clause", where as I doubt the Feds would bomb civvies...not yet anyway.

They're rather willing in general to throw civilian lives away by the end - Pawns on a Board of Bone. The whole point of that is that they lost themselves.

The funny part about the GTVA total war clause is that they still give the civilians a chance to surrender - the first mission of WiH for instance. It's not like they randomly kill civilians for the hell of it.

EDIT: I think the last two pages of this topic should be merged with General Discussion.

Agreed, but I think the BP discussion thread might do better.

Woops, I meant BP discussion. And no they don't go blasting civvies for kicks, but they do if there's just cause, like armed escort or supposed military targets. Like I said I can't see the Feds doing the same...yet.

They're rather willing in general to throw civilian lives away by the end - Pawns on a Board of Bone. The whole point of that is that they lost themselves.

You are inferring a general shift in UEF military behaviour from the behaviour of one task force. That is a wrong thing to do.

Maybe, but they're getting there. The war for the Feds is only going to get worse and they'll get more desperate. The fact they proved themselves resilient enough for the GTVA to have to initiate the total war clause proves they've got it in them to adapt. Who's to say they won't be open to some sacrifices? (Apart from the dev team )

[Mars]

The fact that the high ups cover up for Laporte if she kills a POW says something.

[-Norbert-]

The funny part about the GTVA total war clause is that they still give the civilians a chance to surrender - the first mission of WiH for instance. It's not like they randomly kill civilians for the hell of it.

Erm... no. That was the decision of a wing leader to offer the surrender. The first two (or three?) waves of attackers that came before the one that offered them a chance to surrender, didn't bother with any such offers. They just immediately started to blast away at the convoy.

[Scotty]

That we know of.  Combat was already joined when the player jumps in.