[PsychoLandlord]

I wasn't trying to imply that the BP team was restricted to using said Deus, just stating that I dont see a way for the UEF to win if the war remains conventional. Either way, I look forward to seeing this ending come about.

Also, the Colossus was a terrible idea and thank god the Tevs smartened up.

[Luis Dias]

yep, UEF is doomed. Time for shivans to come and mess up the fight again, just like in FS1 and FS2.

And in the middle of the mess, an UEF pilot will save the galaxy. His name won't be Sheppard.

[crizza]

Range advantage is nullified by Narayanas and fighter strikes. Carrier capacity is better supplied via Hecate- or Titan-class ships. Ressources spent to build a massive juggernaught are better employed building strike corvettes and Raynors or Titans.

Colossus has it's own fighters to defend itself and at the time of return to Sol, it would have most likely been upgraded with new beams. Though, as I said, costs of deploying and operating such a ship make it less effective compared to smaller, more versatile warships. The biggest adventage Colossus would have against UEF would be it's size, which makes a great psychological weapon. I doubt UEF would dare to fight a ship of such size (and so though it would appear invincible, even when technically not being so), it could also serve as a morale booster for GTVA. If they did dare to fight it, however, it would soon turn out to be less usefull than regular carriers and destroyers, being a single ship (thus unable to defend two locations at once) and being rather slow.

I am firmly of the opinion that the UEF forces, if they had fought competently, could have secured Sol rather easily;

Also, if 1st fleet wasn't mostly standing near Earth and guarding their secret project (though they do it for a good reason, which will be revealed when the time comes), they could shift the balance in favor of UEF. If all three fleets answered to a single commander, and if that commander was a good tactican, then UEF could be doing much better.

Well, a Colossus in Sol would most certainly lure UEF ships out...so it would be a perfect bait to crush any attempts to destroy it.

[MatthTheGeek]

And what would you destroy the UEF forces with, if all your budget went in the Colly itself ?

[Destiny]

Darn it, too slow to post and new replies. Actually Dragon, you do not need to defend anything with the post-Capella Colossus. Drag the Imper-something and Steele's flagships along with their battlegroups, to the Colossus for more psychological impact, and jump into Earth orbit together, to sign a peace treaty with beams.

And what would you destroy the UEF forces with, if all your budget went in the Colly itself ?

You already have ships built, like that annoying GTD Raynor Steele captains and the GTD Imper-something, and their battlegroups. Just put them on node guard for...ten or twenty years.

-------------

[TheColossusTheory]Oh and just for a note on my point: It's pitting the UEF against a Colossus and it's battlegroup. Not alone~

Considering the GTVA can swarm the skies (space) with more fighters than the UEF can output, I doubt the Durgas and Vajras, will ever get to reach a Colossus battlegroup enough to do anything. You can shoot down bombs anyway. Of course, there is no Colossus, I'm just stating a 'what if'. Sixty fighter wings from the Colossus itself, and the XXX fighter wings Orions/Hecates around it. If you want, maybe the GTD Titans and Raynors, or other carrying shippy. Oh and, don't forget...the popup Trebuchet strike~ The UEF may be good at gathering intel, but that doesn't mean the GTVI is drinking tea and eating crumpets. (Wonder if I got that British phrase right...?)

The blockade I mention, actually is a misnomer; actually should be the 'orbital defense of Earth'. My bad on that one, sorry. But yeah, having the Colossus battlegroup even appearing in Sol would fill the people with what SD-Beast said. Public morale, pilot morale, squad morale, ship morale, fleet morale...if that pilot (Noemi?) was scared or something that the GTVA had two dozen Hecates, wouldn't a single Colossus be a super-nightmare? Psychological warfare is quite effective for one, look at Steele and the Vasudans.

Remember, this is a 'what if'. All theoretical, nonsense and rubbish stuff. Yes, the resources used to build a Colossus can be used for many other ships. I could build a buncha Raynors and steamroll the orbital defense network of Earth. But is there any ship that has the hull strength, firepower, sheer amount of turrets all over the place uselessly and especially, the psychological impact of the GTVA Meatshield in the Galactic Terran-Vasudan Alliance? No. Since it's stated that the GTVA has firm control of the node itself, the Colossus battlegroup jumping into Earth orbit will be capable of making anyone crap in their flightsuits and sue for peace immediately. After building the Colossus, anyway...[/TheColossusTheory]

Although I do agree with you on several points, The E. If only Byrne had the balls. The whole thing of the Elders and First Fleet's doctrine is hopelessly flawed. How can they ever dream of trying to attrition against a faction that controls many, many many systems, capable of pumping out warships like...well...<insert word here>? I'm starting to think that Byrne and the Elders are mental somewhat.

And if the GTVA put the Colossus in Sol...yeah, I think the UEF might wanna...not suffer that tragedy at Saturn with the Carthage.

On the case of technological level, I'd say the UEF is much, much more primitive. What do the UEF have in comparison to an antimatter torpedo? (GTVA has many suns, the Antimatter complex at Mercury could be blown up and...poof.) They don't even possess basic (AAA) beams, even. If the blob turrets had better AI instead of Captain and quit shooting at fighters when there are bombs/anti-ship missiles around...and from what I see, the UEF as of R1, has no sentry guns (Hey, they're not useless!) at all for some odd reason. The GTVA (well...the NTF I guess) had asteroids which could shoot and transform into a destroyer-armed frigate! Oh and, don't you love firing TAG-Cs at UEF bombers?

[Luis Dias]

Well, a Colossus in Sol would most certainly lure UEF ships out...so it would be a perfect bait to crush any attempts to destroy it.

Perhaps the UEF fleet would just avoid it at all costs... In this sense, the Colly would be the ultimate defender of any given position the tevs would like to preserve in the middle of the war. It could also serve as a counter-bait. You move the colly, everyone there flees and then you attack the UEF fleet to wherever they went.

There's another problem with the Collossus. That ship was built by both humans and vasudans. It was voiced by humans, but it was a joint endeavour. I seriously doubt that the Vasudans would okay the release of such a ship for the civil war of humans... at least there would be created a huge point of tension.

And of course, it's incredibly bad economics.

[Scotty]

Calder almost single-handedly holding back the GTVA invasion for over a year should be proof of that.

I think that Severanti's general attitude of moderate-intensity war of attrition is a primary contributing factor to the longevity of the war.  Granted, Steele wouldn't have had an excellent staging situation for his blitzkrieg if it hadn't happened, I'm almost entirely sure that the war would have only lasted between six and eight months if a more aggressive admiral had been present and in command for the whole war.

[crizza]

We need -Sara- to finish her Helios mission:)

[The E]

Destiny, please, please remember what was being said before. In BP, the Colossus is dead, and will never be rebuilt, because it just isn't a practical ship.

And you are consistently overestimating the psychological effect that that overgrown watergun has. Your "What If" scenario is very, very flawed because it discounts the realities of combat and warfare in BP. Let me repeat: The Colossus is only scary in two situations. The first being its role as a node blockade breaker. In that role, it is excellent, as it has the all-around firepower and durability to jump into a contested system, take whatever the defenders can dish out in a node blockade, and smash said blockade to pieces.
The second is its role as a surprise attacker, as the ultimate trump card in a subspace speed chess match (See: "Feint, Parry, Riposte").

However, during line combat, its role is largely relegated to that of overly big fighter base, as a force like the UEF (or the Shivans, for that matter) can track it, and thus avoid it with ease.

On the case of technological level, I'd say the UEF is much, much more primitive. What do the UEF have in comparison to an antimatter torpedo?

The Apocalypse torpedo, Warhammer, Jackhammer and Sledgehammer missiles all carry antimatter warheads. If there is one resource the UEF has ample supply of, it's antimatter.

(GTVA has many suns, the Antimatter complex at Mercury could be blown up and...poof.) They don't even possess basic (AAA) beams, even.

Umm.

Have you actually played War in Heaven? The Burst Flak/PD Gun one-two punch is arguably more effective than any AAA beam short of the Ultra.

Also, the Mercury facilities are the one installation in Sol space the GTVA can never assault and take over successfully, due to environmental factors. Any ship sent there will be shot down in a matter of seconds.

If the blob turrets had better AI instead of Captain and quit shooting at fighters when there are bombs/anti-ship missiles around...and from what I see, the UEF as of R1, has no sentry guns (Hey, they're not useless!) at all for some odd reason. The GTVA (well...the NTF I guess) had asteroids which could shoot and transform into a destroyer-armed frigate! Oh and, don't you love firing TAG-Cs at UEF bombers?

Sentry guns, in general, are only good to annoy fighters or supplement your point defence. Given that the GTVA relies on beams, having something that is stationary to bolster your missile defense makes no sense for a force like the UEF, which is built on mobility and having tons of flak guns on their ships.

[Commander Zane]

The Apocalypse torpedo, Warhammer, Jackhammer and Sledgehammer missiles all carry antimatter warheads. If there is one resource the UEF has ample supply of, it's antimatter.

Haven't played WiH for a while, doesn't the Redeemer fire antimatter-tipped shells also?

[The E]

Yes, it does.

[Destiny]

I do know the Colossus is dead and won't ever appear in BP, The E. That's why I've said 'Remember, this is a 'what if'. All theoretical, nonsense and rubbish stuff.' I'm accounting for the Superbat being the endgame because there is something huge in path that they (UEF) can't blow up. And because the UEF has to avoid the Colossus, wherever the Colossus goes = Area denial. Go to Luna...there. Earth, endgame. The other's comments do matter as well. Whatever, past the Colossus finally:


Technology level, not the weapon effectiveness. That's the key point. I'm leaning towards that the UEF is technologically inferior. Your 'never' in the Mercury topic is quite unstable. I'm sure the environmental factors are nothing if they drag a AWACS or two over. If the Indus didn't already melt badly being that close to the sun, yet only taking structural damage and rad poisoning, somewhere as 'far' away as Mercury wouldn't be that bad at all.

Well, a Colossus in Sol would most certainly lure UEF ships out...so it would be a perfect bait to crush any attempts to destroy it.

Perhaps the UEF fleet would just avoid it at all costs... In this sense, the Colly would be the ultimate defender of any given position the tevs would like to preserve in the middle of the war. It could also serve as a counter-bait. You move the colly, everyone there flees and then you attack the UEF fleet to wherever they went.

There's another problem with the Collossus. That ship was built by both humans and vasudans. It was voiced by humans, but it was a joint endeavour. I seriously doubt that the Vasudans would okay the release of such a ship for the civil war of humans... at least there would be created a huge point of tension.

And of course, it's incredibly bad economics.

I'm not sure where would the GTVA have the Colossus defend actually. Do they actually have anything to defend in Sol? I didn't know they had any. But it's best position would be scaring people for defense (dress up as the Colossus on Halloween), and counter-bait, yeah. Like Saturn.

A joint project and the Vasudans agreeing wouldn't be a problem, Steele did a number to the Ubuntu-Vasudan relationship by smashing that shuttle with the Pegasus fighters and the Vasudan admiral arrived in the Hatshepsut.

[The E]

Let me explain why the antimatter farms will never, and never can be assaulted.
One, getting them intact is one of the main objectives of the GTVA.
Two, getting to them involves figuring out its orbital elements with a very high degree of precision. Despite their name, they are nowhere near Mercury at any given time, they are, in fact, quite a bit closer to the Sun. If you do not know exactly where they are, or your jump is even slightly imprecise, you end up in full view of the Sun, which means that you'll burn to a crisp rather quickly. And even if you do get all of that together, you end up staring down the business end of literally thousands of Apocalypse missiles, not to mention the defenders stationed there (Hint: Where do you think the Masyaf was before coming to the Indus' rescue?).

Now, as you are aware, the Indus had quite a few problems near the end. That's because she isn't built to handle that environment; the antimatter farms on the other hand are there not only for protection (of the rest of the solar system as much as anything else), but also because that's where they get their energy from. They are engineered to withstand the thermal pressure there, and they can use the energy available in quite a number of incredibly destructive ways.

If you have ever seen the film "Sunshine", the AM farms basically look like the Icarus.

[Rodo]

The UEF, on the other hand, is far better at gathering intelligence

Really?, yet they fell completely on that last plan to destroy the Wargods.

[The E]

They are better than Koth and the entire NTF, who seem to have had a giant, Colossus-shaped hole in their intel.

[Destiny]

Hmm, never knew the GTVA wanted them intact. What purpose would they actually serve? They already have so many suns. A Pegasus or two SOC people could do something, but otherwise I thought that Fedayeen was from Venus since it has never been mentioned and Venus seems like a pretty mysterious place to me...I'm getting the feeling we're going a bit off-topic here, so...ha. End of story.

I like that Colossus joke, but I was surprised they managed to find out the discrepancies of our dossiers when we infiltrated the NTF.

Really?, yet they fell completely on that last plan to destroy the Wargods.

Actually I don't think UEF intelligence banked on him being a double agent. It kinda sucks, since there's no double-cross or something spy system Britain used in WWII, here.

[Qent]

I do know the Colossus is dead and won't ever appear in BP, The E. That's why I've said 'Remember, this is a 'what if'. All theoretical, nonsense and rubbish stuff.' I'm accounting for the Superbat being the endgame because there is something huge in path that they (UEF) can't blow up. And because the UEF has to avoid the Colossus, wherever the Colossus goes = Area denial. Go to Luna...there. Earth, endgame. The other's comments do matter as well. Whatever, past the Colossus finally:

Is your "What If?" a free Colossus for the GTVA? Because if they had built another Colossus (and not gotten a free one from God) then they would not have had all those other ships.

Also I wouldn't like having to supply that thing through the node.

Technology level, not the weapon effectiveness. That's the key point. I'm leaning towards that the UEF is technologically inferior.

How so? Most of the R&D got stuck on the Sol side. They developed jump gates by themselves. They developed fighter primaries outclassing the Kayser without the benefit of studying Shivans from the Second Incursion.

Your 'never' in the Mercury topic is quite unstable. I'm sure the environmental factors are nothing if they drag a AWACS or two over. If the Indus didn't already melt badly being that close to the sun, yet only taking structural damage and rad poisoning, somewhere as 'far' away as Mercury wouldn't be that bad at all.

I'm pretty sure if The E say it's true then it's true.

A joint project and the Vasudans agreeing wouldn't be a problem, Steele did a number to the Ubuntu-Vasudan relationship by smashing that shuttle with the Pegasus fighters and the Vasudan admiral arrived in the Hatshepsut.

He would have to convince the Vasudans not only that they should support the Terrans in the war against Sol, but also that the Colossus is an effective ship. And I doubt Steele would even want to.

[The E]

Umm. Here are the facts. While the GTVA (terran half) has over a dozen systems, their population is only about equal to that of Sol. Every single world currently colonized is still in one or another stage of terraforming. As a result, they simply do not have the resources to build up the kind of infrastructure the UEF has. Taking an installation like the AM farms intact is a very big concern for the GTVA, as having it would increase the supply of AM significantly.

[Destiny]

Wow, I'm surprised humans reproduce so slowly, many years after Capella blew up? Considering they've already got that accelerator at Antares, I doubt harvesting antimatter from many suns would have to take extremely hard to do with all they've gone through with both Shivan Incursions, making so many breakthroughs. I guess they're taking it easy?


Oh and Qent:
Well in the previous page I had stated "after building the Colossus anyway..." multiple times, actually. But yeah, looks like the Colossus is quite sensitive topic. If the Colossus dragged a Anemoi or two along, it should be okay, I'd like to get over the Colossus already. Well, most of the Great War R&D got stuck in Sol. No Meson bombs capable of blowing up an entire jump node, nor guns capable of discharging zero-point energy microbursts upon impact (Rapier's energy projectile isn't specified, but being a descendant of the Prometheus, perhaps plasma?). I believe the UEF lacks any EMP weaponry of sorts either...at least they've got a Akheton SDG and Lamprey counterpart. I've no idea what the Cyclops is armed with, but the GTVA has a bunch of exotic weapon/technologies. But I agree, don't think Steele is a man of words.

[MatthTheGeek]

Oh and just for a note on my point: It's pitting the UEF against a Colossus and it's battlegroup. Not alone~

And where do you take this battlegroup from, since you already sent all your money into the Colossus ?

Remember that the Tevs are on the verge of economic collapse. One of their main drive to wage war in Sol is to get hold of their economical and industrial power. They already have sent most their resources to build the Sol Portal. More than half their fleet is still comprised of Capella-era ships or older. If they had tried to build a Colossus, especially in parallel of such a project as the Sol portal, none of the newest Terran tech would probably even happen. No blue beams, no Balors, no SSMs. And the UEF warships are more than a match to Capella-era stuff.

The GTVA would basically have been toast. They would never have the firepower to defend such a big and slow target as the Collossus if it was deployed in the Sol theater. A couple of Narayana or a few wings of Varjas and you can say bye to the Collie, not to mention a wing of Karunas with AWACS support. Which means that the GTVA would never risk to send the Colly in Sol. Which means that they'll have to fight a war in the Sol system with assets even inferior to what they have in WiH. Since they didn't manage to gain any sizeable foot on Sol during 18 months even with the new tech, they would probably have been fought back in a few months without it.