Author Topic: OT-Religion...  (Read 134651 times)

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Offline Ulala

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Quote
Originally posted by CP5670

Besides, what kind of friend is it that you have to serve without him serving you?


Whatever, look at all the blessings you have, I have, America and Europe has. Just having a roof over your and my own head is Him giving something to us.

[Edit] No way discriminating against countries not in Europe and America... sorry, should have worded that better. [/Edit]
« Last Edit: May 31, 2002, 01:14:26 am by 488 »
I am a revolutionary.

 

Offline Ulala

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Quote
Originally posted by CP5670
But why does sin exist in the first place? :rolleyes:


Why create a being to love you when it doesnt have the chioce to love you? Its not really love if you dont get to choose to love.
I am a revolutionary.

 

Offline Crazy_Ivan80

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Quote
Originally posted by Ulala


Whatever, look at all the blessings you have, I have, America and Europe has. Just having a roof over your and my own head is Him giving something to us.


No, that is because a whole of people work very hard...God didn't plop down houses for everyone.
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Offline CP5670

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Sex isn't a sin that is if you only do it with you wife. If it is outside of marrige or before it is a sin.


Read what I said earlier. Why? This makes about as much sense as "you are not allowed to jump off a cliff before you are 30 years old, but it is okay after that." :p

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Whatever, look at all the blessings you have, I have, America and Europe has. Just having a roof over your and my own head is Him giving something to us.


Wait, what blessings? Even the first-world G7 nations of today have had their share of misfortunes in the past. Most recently, there is the 9/11/01 incident, which must have been an "act of god" (actually an act of allah :D), and if you go a bit into the past, you have WW2, another act of god. Anything that is favorable to you can be construed as an act of god, but then you must take everything he does into account, inlcuding everything in the universe that you do not like. Either the god is stupider and less logical than even the human in his thought processes, there are several gods all bickering amongst themselves about what to do with the world, or my preferred explanation: everything in the universe is due to a complex interplay of scientific laws and equations.

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Why create a being to love you when it doesnt have the chioce to love you? Its not really love if you dont get to choose to love.


True enough, but then why do people love him in first place? I gave several reasons a bit earlier in this thread about why god would be an utterly despicable fellow if he existed, even if he gave us this choice, which nobody has really refuted yet.

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same here, Atheisim Rules!


:D :yes:
« Last Edit: May 31, 2002, 02:48:30 am by 296 »

 
I suppose you people think that America is all innocent?

Take Iraq during the Gulf War. Did you know that about a week before it occured Iraq offered an uncondional withdraw, but America didn't listen? More than 250 000 Iraqis died from bombing, many of them civilian. But oh, you say then, weren't the weapons used high-tech, minimizing collateral damage (civilian death)? In fact, a senior Pentagon official admitted years later that only 7% of the weapons used were "smart", and some of them even dated back to WWII!
The military who died were mainly Kurds and Shi'as. These were the main opponents of Suddam Hussein, and were tricked. Remember Hussein's gassing of 6 000 kurds in front of Britain's Foreign Minister? And yet, a week later, Britain gave Iraq over $375 million worth of trade credits. And then there's the aftermath of the war. It was estimated by UNICEF and WFO (world food organisation) that more than 576 000 children died from starvation.

Then take East Timor. Britain and America supplied Hawk aircraft and other military equipment. Ever seen the film Death of a Nation ? Britain, America and other countries continued to supply weapons to Suharto, even during the peak of the massacre. It is estimated by the UN that 1/3 of the East Timor population died during the invasion by Indonesia. That means millions of people! Try watching the film Death of a Nation  sometime.

Then take Cambodia. President Nixon secretly authorized the bombing of Cambodia. 2-3 times as many sorties were sent against Cambodia than against Japan during WWII! More than 7.5 million tons of bombs killing 2.5 million people. Horrifying. Ever seen the films Year Zero, Year One, Year Ten ?

Then take Nicaragua. America's CIA secretly trained thousands of Contra to terrorize the land, because it was a clear demonstration to nearby countries the power of regional nationalism at last succeeding to abolish pobreterria. This people's movement removed the tyrant Anastasio Somoza. During the period of power of the Sandistinas, by the people for the people, the number of babies who died was zero for one whole year. Unprecedented! The production and consumption of basic foods rose by 100%,thus eliminating serious malnutrition.
However, America just had to butt in, didn't they?!

Then take the Khmer Rouge and the Pol Pots. America and Britain continued to supply, equip and train these murderous groups, even though they were blacklisted by Amnesty International, UN, Redcross as some of the worst human rights abusers in history.

There are numerous other examples, try reading books such asDistant Voices & Hidden Agendas  sometime.

Wake up, America!
--The measure of a man's character is what he would do if he knew he never would be found out

 

Offline CP5670

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Who said America is innocent? They are just as much "terrorist" as their enemies are, and as is every nation out there. It is all a matter of competing national interests and an objective observer cannot say that a country is more "good" or "bad" than another. (whatever that means) But what the devil does this have to do with anything we were talking about earlier? :rolleyes:

Here is yet another example of what I was saying earlier; they cannot think of anything to say and therefore lost the argument, so they simply move on to another topic, sometimes a completely irrelevant one. :p

 

Offline Ulala

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Quote
Originally posted by CP5670

Wait, what blessings? Even the first-world G7 nations of today have had their share of misfortunes in the past. Most recently, there is the 9/11/01 incident, which must have been an "act of god" (actually an act of allah :D), and if you go a bit into the past, you have WW2, another act of god. Anything that is favorable to you can be construed as an act of god, but then you must take everything he does into account, inlcuding everything in the universe that you do not like. Either the god is stupider and less logical than even the human in his thought processes, there are several gods all bickering amongst themselves about what to do with the world, or my preferred explanation: everything in the universe is due to a complex interplay of scientific laws and equations.
 


These "acts of God" them are part of his plan. Yes, they seem like crap to us right now, but we can only see the most microscopic part of the picture when he can see the whole canvas. He knows what hes doing. Of course you don't believe that... so I'm done for awhile. Thanks for listening and keeping things civilized too! :)
Oh, and I think we should take out the :rolleyes: and :p smilies for this thread. Lol... j/k. :wink:
« Last Edit: May 31, 2002, 01:20:26 pm by 488 »
I am a revolutionary.

 

Offline Stryke 9

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Quote
Originally posted by Crazy_Ivan80


1. Prove to me that the universe is a closed system. Have you seen it's borders? Can you prove that there are only 4 dimensions and not 10 for example?
Probably not: so currently there is no proof that the universe is a closed system
The rest of part one doens't make sense: in effect your saying that if you build a house at location A then, according to your voodoo law of thermodynamics, a house at location B should crumble. Sorry to break you the news, but reality doesn't work that way.


Er... Hotsnoj was right. The Universe, by definition, is EVERYTHING, and thus everything is contained within it- and, by deduction, nothing is NOT contained within it, and nothing is OUTSIDE of it. The number of dimensions makes no difference (many quantum physyscists, etc. postulate dozens, and there could be a billion without it changing a single bit of reality)- dimensions are a method of measuring the universe. Nothing more. And "Chaos" is not defined by some superficial measurement- if you take a stone and carve it into a square, it is MORE chaotic, not less, regardless of the form. Chaos in this sense is on an atomic scale, chiefly regarding energy- you can make a refrigerator, it will cool an area and reduce the heat energy dispersal at the expense of using and diffusing another kind of energy. The levels of energy throughout the universe are constantly equalizing, and in a few bajillion years energy levels will theoretically be the same everywhere, rendering all energy useless. Second law of thermodynamics, I believe, and it is QUITE demonstrably true. Hotsnoj knows what he's talking about.

 

Offline Crazy_Ivan80

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Originally posted by Stryke 9


Er... Hotsnoj was right. The Universe, by definition, is EVERYTHING, and thus everything is contained within it- and, by deduction, nothing is NOT contained within it, and nothing is OUTSIDE of it. The number of dimensions makes no difference (many quantum physyscists, etc. postulate dozens, and there could be a billion without it changing a single bit of reality)- dimensions are a method of measuring the universe. Nothing more. And "Chaos" is not defined by some superficial measurement- if you take a stone and carve it into a square, it is MORE chaotic, not less, regardless of the form. Chaos in this sense is on an atomic scale, chiefly regarding energy- you can make a refrigerator, it will cool an area and reduce the heat energy dispersal at the expense of using and diffusing another kind of energy. The levels of energy throughout the universe are constantly equalizing, and in a few bajillion years energy levels will theoretically be the same everywhere, rendering all energy useless. Second law of thermodynamics, I believe, and it is QUITE demonstrably true. Hotsnoj knows what he's talking about.


only partly...

Actually I know that the universe is everything... As I've said in earlier posts :p

And I know about the 'cold-death' of the universe if it keeps expanding. But that means there is no interaction possile anymore as that needs energy. Cold-death is ultimate stability, ultimate order... The opposite of what he attributes to the second law.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2002, 02:10:50 pm by 169 »
It came from outer space! What? Dunno, but it's going back on the next flight!
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Offline Kabal

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what happens if this topic gets to 1000 posts?
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Offline CP5670

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These "acts of God" them are part of his plan. Yes, they seem like crap to us right now, but we can only see the most microscopic part of the picture when he can see the whole canvas. He knows what hes doing.


But isn't it equally possible that he does not know what he is doing and may end up messing things up completely? In fact, this is actually more likely, seeing as he is said to be infinite in logical complexity, and so his creations are also of equal logical complexity in terms of their "infiniteness." They can therefore comprehend everything he can to a similar degree of infinity, and look at it the same way he would. Although the people's true brainpower may not be equal to that of god, the difference is infinitesimally negligible, making the limiting value zero.

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Of course you don't believe that... so I'm done for awhile. Thanks for listening and keeping things civilized too!  


Hey, anyone can continue believing what they want; this thread is really more for a discussion about which system conforms to the rules of logic better. ;) The contemporary human has been shown to be an inconsistent thing in many affairs, and so this system can go on for a millennium or two before it automatically falls apart. I thank you too for chipping in some arguments, as I am using the statements in this thread to sharpen my own ideas. ;) Now I just have to beat everyone else... :D

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Oh, and I think we should take out the  and  smilies for this thread. Lol... j/k.


noooooooo!! :D

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Er... Hotsnoj was right. The Universe, by definition, is EVERYTHING, and thus everything is contained within it- and, by deduction, nothing is NOT contained within it, and nothing is OUTSIDE of it. The number of dimensions makes no difference (many quantum physyscists, etc. postulate dozens, and there could be a billion without it changing a single bit of reality)- dimensions are a method of measuring the universe. Nothing more. And "Chaos" is not defined by some superficial measurement- if you take a stone and carve it into a square, it is MORE chaotic, not less, regardless of the form. Chaos in this sense is on an atomic scale, chiefly regarding energy- you can make a refrigerator, it will cool an area and reduce the heat energy dispersal at the expense of using and diffusing another kind of energy. The levels of energy throughout the universe are constantly equalizing, and in a few bajillion years energy levels will theoretically be the same everywhere, rendering all energy useless. Second law of thermodynamics, I believe, and it is QUITE demonstrably true. Hotsnoj knows what he's talking about.


What you said about the rock and the refrigerator is true, but it doesn't have any relevance to your point. For the second law of thermodynamics to have any effect in the way we commonly think of it, the system needs to be not only closed, but finitely closed. If the universe has a transfinite amount of mass in it but is still closed, than a transfinite amount of time will be required for the total entropy state to occur. Also, even entropy can be circumvented if there indeed are multiple time dimensions we live in and our universe moves in a circular rather than a linear path.

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what happens if this topic gets to 1000 posts?


That would be great, as this is one of the best discussions I have ever seen. We will then just continue on, and possibility even rival the famous TAS... ;7
« Last Edit: May 31, 2002, 03:25:05 pm by 296 »

 

Offline Crazy_Ivan80

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Originally posted by X-Files Addict
what happens if this topic gets to 1000 posts?


the Reckoning??
It came from outer space! What? Dunno, but it's going back on the next flight!
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Quote
Originally posted by IceFire
Almost impeached.

No, he was impeached.
Just not fired.
Theres a difference
Watching from the background since 17 April 2002.

 

Offline Kabal

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so much for presidents being role-models
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Offline CP5670

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Yeah, Clinton was a pretty messed up fellow, but he was a clever politician who knew how to convince the masses, which is why he got elected twice. :p

  

Offline Kabal

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this election sucked...pick either a very stupid guy or a robot
Soon the kabal will rule...soon....everyone.....will....DIE!Kabal's House (Samples of my work)

 
Quote
Originally posted by X-Files Addict
this election sucked...pick either a very stupid guy or a robot


I was rooting for the robot (I'm Canadian).
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:(:(:(

NotDefault

 
The sad truth about American politics is this: We have to pick the lesser of two evils every 4 years.

The democrats all think that government has the answer for everything and we should all suck on the nipple of their socialist ideology. So in other words the Democrats are Socialists. Just like most Eurpoean governments.

The republicans on the other hand are facists. They want your privacy to be their gain. They want to defend the public to threats to its "morals".

Thats why we have other political parties.
Dumb and Dumber are not our only choices.
Thats why I vote Libertarian. :)
Watching from the background since 17 April 2002.

 

Offline Kabal

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Soon the kabal will rule...soon....everyone.....will....DIE!Kabal's House (Samples of my work)

 

Offline Crazy_Ivan80

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Originally posted by killadonuts
The sad truth about American politics is this: We have to pick the lesser of two evils every 4 years.

The democrats all think that government has the answer for everything and we should all suck on the nipple of their socialist ideology. So in other words the Democrats are Socialists. Just like most Eurpoean governments.

The republicans on the other hand are facists. They want your privacy to be their gain. They want to defend the public to threats to its "morals".

Thats why we have other political parties.
Dumb and Dumber are not our only choices.
Thats why I vote Libertarian. :)


Let me assure you: the Democrats are not socialists, not by a long shot.
It came from outer space! What? Dunno, but it's going back on the next flight!
Proud member of Hard Light Productions. The last, best hope for Freespace...
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