Author Topic: Test your morality: The Babyeaters and the Superhappies  (Read 27942 times)

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Offline StarSlayer

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Re: Test your morality: The Babyeaters and the Superhappies
Spoiler:
And he lived happily ever after.

Brilliant ending.

Yeah that line never sounded so sinister as it did in that case.
“Think lightly of yourself and deeply of the world”

 

Offline StarSlayer

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Re: Test your morality: The Babyeaters and the Superhappies
The crew still felt the Superhappy intervention with the Babyeaters was necessary.  Instead they decided that popping Hyugens was a better option since it disconnected humanity from the Superhappies while still keeping the starlines open to the Babyeaters.

They did not! They just toyed with the idea of having all this fuss "over with". And then commander reminded them of the holocaust.

Um...  then why did they blow up Hyugens rather than the contact star, if not to preserve the Superhappies ability to deal with the Babyeaters?
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Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Test your morality: The Babyeaters and the Superhappies
The crew still felt the Superhappy intervention with the Babyeaters was necessary.  Instead they decided that popping Hyugens was a better option since it disconnected humanity from the Superhappies while still keeping the starlines open to the Babyeaters.



They did not! They just toyed with the idea of having all this fuss "over with". And then commander reminded them of the holocaust.

Um...  then why did they blow up Hyugens rather than the contact star, if not to preserve the Superhappies ability to deal with the Babyeaters?

Hmmm I see I didn't read it all yet. Bugger. I hated the "real ending" much more btw. Oh okay, you got to "save" mankind and kill billions on the process. Big deal. Now mankind can go along suffering to eternity... until supperhappies arrive and just blast your planet off for good.

 

Offline IronBeer

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Re: Test your morality: The Babyeaters and the Superhappies
Huh. Still mulling this one, don't have a fully formed response yet. I will say that being forcibly limited in my emotional spectrum is not something I would sit still for, however.

Aaargh. There really is no right answer that I can see now.  :banghead:
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Ridiculous, the Director's Cut

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Offline Ghostavo

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Re: Test your morality: The Babyeaters and the Superhappies
There seems to be some confusion regarding the Prisoner's Dilemma in the story, since the rational strategy (and stable Nash equilibrium) is to defect. No matter what the other player does, defecting guarantees a higher payoff. What the writer may have thought of was the Iterated Prisoner's Dilemma, in particular one with an uncertain number of turns. Which doesn't really make sense, since in the context of the story, the game ends after one of them defects (they blow the other's ship up).

Oh, and:
Quote
"If we don't fire on the alien ship - I mean, if this work is ever carried back to the Babyeater civilization - I suspect the aliens will consider this one of their great historical works of literature, like Hamlet or Fate/stay night -"

 ;7

The story seems interesting, and I'm still reading it, so...
« Last Edit: March 29, 2011, 04:22:13 pm by Ghostavo »
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Offline Bobboau

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Re: Test your morality: The Babyeaters and the Superhappies
my favorite line in this:
"I don't suppose... we could convince them they were wrong about that?"
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Offline Shivan Hunter

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Re: Test your morality: The Babyeaters and the Superhappies
lol ^

the Superhappies, for all their advancement, didn't seem to think things through. There is the fact that we develop from adversity, which is why their solution is wrong (what concept of individual liberty do they have? Obviously some given their reaction to the Babyeaters). There is the fact that our suffering inflicts suffering upon them through empathy. The simple solution there is to not communicate, or to communicate solely through simple text media.

I AM SUPER HAPPY FUN BALL I WILL SPEAK IN METAPHOR

Imagine that the man who lives next door to you tortures a kitten every day. He came from a country where they used to have to torture thirty kittens every day, mind, so torturing only one is an improvement. His society has written reams of poetry and beautiful art about the sad and painful necessity of torturing kittens. It is part of their soul.

But nonetheless, although he doesn't have to torture the kitten any more - he can take medication to prevent it - he explains that circumstances conspire to make it happen every day, and that it is simply part of his identity.

Now, you don't have to ever see this man, and you can't really hear the yowls of his kitten. But now that you've met him, and read all his books, you know he's over there, torturing that kitten. And you really could force him to take his medication...

That's how the Superhappies feel about humanity, only more so. Is cutting off all contact somehow a solution? Does the man have a cultural right to torture his kitten?

Been mulling over this, and did a very illuminating wiki walk on various points of view on ethics. (I'm still not an authority on this at any rate :nervous:)

I stand by my initial reaction that humanity feeling suffering is not at all like the torture of a kitten. An individual wronging another individual is almost always ethically wrong, but the cumulative suffering of humanity is an abstract concept. It's not universally wrong or right, it's what we get out of it. We may or may not benefit from a wider "emotional spectrum", as IronBeer puts it, but we definitely learn from adversity. All in all, the ability to feel suffering is a positive aspect of humanity (in a post-scarcity society this might be debatable but the Humanity in the story is very likely not post-scarcity).

Because of our basic psychology, taking away that aspect would be to our detriment in one way or another. For the SH's, their psychology seems to lend itself to a "happy-happy-joy-joy" existence, and it is a positive factor for them. Thus in both cases, what we have now is what is right for our society from an objective standpoint.

The only remaining point of conflict is the SH's perfect empathy. Now, memories can be passed down into what is basically a collective consciousness for them. Either this cultural memory is perfect or it is not.

The unlikely case first: if it is, any suffering is spread throughout their society like a virus. The effect may diminish as it is shared, but it is always there. They know about humanity's suffering and it causes them pain, which they share with all their species. This suffering, for them, is there whether or not they "cure" us. They have already been damaged, and much less so than by the knowledge of the Babyeaters culling their young (remember, that revelation basically incapacitated their captain). They can leave us in peace and not be much worse for it.

The likely case: memories are not transmitted perfectly, they are forgotten and die off in the cultural memory. If this is true, the damage we would do by letting them know we suffer is finite. If they can keep secrets, they could in fact let the memory die with their crew and close families. In this case, the finite damage we do to them is far, far less than the irreversible damage they do to us.

[EDIT] Ghostavo: um no
Both defect: both get a 5-year sentence.
Both cooperate: both get a 6-month sentence for a minor charge.
One defects: defector goes free, other gets full 10-year sentence.

 

Offline Ghostavo

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Re: Test your morality: The Babyeaters and the Superhappies
[EDIT] Ghostavo: um no
Both defect: both get a 5-year sentence.
Both cooperate: both get a 6-month sentence for a minor charge.
One defects: defector goes free, other gets full 10-year sentence.

Quote
Wikipedia:
For cooperation to emerge between game theoretic rational players, the total number of rounds N must be random, or at least unknown to the players. In this case always defect may no longer be a strictly dominant strategy, only a Nash equilibrium.

For every situation where the number of rounds/turns/whatever is known, defecting is ALWAYS the rational response. And for every situation, defect/defect is a Nash equilibrium.
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Offline Bobboau

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Re: Test your morality: The Babyeaters and the Superhappies
er, actually, no, my favorite line is now this:
"If we don't fire on the alien ship - I mean, if this work is ever carried back to the Babyeater civilization - I suspect the aliens will consider this one of their great historical works of literature, like Hamlet or Fate/stay night"
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DEUTERONOMY 22:11
Thou shalt not wear a garment of diverse sorts, [as] of woollen and linen together

 

Offline Mongoose

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Re: Test your morality: The Babyeaters and the Superhappies
I need to convince myself that I should read this story just for the sake of reading a good story, because there's a fundamental part of me that absolutely loathes the concept of hypothetical morality conundrums.  We have enough real moral issues floating about on this ball of rock of ours that we don't need to bother with inventing crazy farfetched ones on top of them. :p

 

Offline Ghostavo

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Re: Test your morality: The Babyeaters and the Superhappies
Just finished reading, I would choose the normal ending over the true ending.

That is all.
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Offline Bobboau

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Re: Test your morality: The Babyeaters and the Superhappies
oh, jesus...  :lol:

"You may call me Big ****ing Edward; as for our species... This translation program is not fully stable; even if I said our proper species-name, who knows how it would come out.  I would not wish my kind to forever bear an unaesthetic nickname on account of a translation error."

Akon nodded.  "I understand, Big ****ing Edward."
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DEUTERONOMY 22:11
Thou shalt not wear a garment of diverse sorts, [as] of woollen and linen together

 

Offline Mars

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Re: Test your morality: The Babyeaters and the Superhappies
Yeah, not doing it for me. Although humanities "pain" response could be more fine tuned, emotional pain is just like physical hurt, an excellent warning mechanism, there's nothing ethically wrong about feeling it. Destroying one's children, and causing them a month of pointless suffering in the process, is not ethically similar.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Test your morality: The Babyeaters and the Superhappies
Yeah, not doing it for me. Although humanities "pain" response could be more fine tuned, emotional pain is just like physical hurt, an excellent warning mechanism, there's nothing ethically wrong about feeling it. Destroying one's children, and causing them a month of pointless suffering in the process, is not ethically similar.

But you're arguing that from the human standpoint. 'Pain is okay because it works for us, it's been the key to our survival.' Well, the Babyeaters have survived by eating their babies; it's the very neural foundation of their system of morality. The Superhappies evolved in an environment where pain was as useless and repulsive to them as eating babies is to us.

See the analogy?

 

Offline Sushi

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Re: Test your morality: The Babyeaters and the Superhappies
I would have blown up the junction star: to protect humanity from the happies and the babyeaters from humanity (and from the happies too, I guess).

 

Offline Mika

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Re: Test your morality: The Babyeaters and the Superhappies
I don't know what to make of this story. It smells like an artificially constructed moral problem, which is conveniently placed on further future to allow more creative freedom for the writer; but that tends to imply certain type of laziness towards the affairs of current day. There were also several occasions where it broke my suspension of disbelief, but I confess that the reception towards sci-fi and fantasy tends to change with age. Overall I say that I could have spent those 20 minutes reading it worse.

Instead of thinking of the aliens and humans, the history of humanity before meeting the aliens caught my eye; what the hell happened to them? Several moral standards seemed to have returned from the Medieval Ages or even earlier, while the story is placed in much further ahead in time. It is weird, but I was more interested in the backdrop instead of the presented moral difficulties. The text has something common with general philosophical problems posed by earlier philosophers: despite the intentions of the writer, what ever the answer on the proposed problem is, it will not change the world. It all tends to go down to people discussing about it, and then forgetting it - as self-touched by the text also, so props for that.

For the above mentioned reasons if I were able to, I would ask the motivation of the writer to write such a story? Is it that he believes that he is able to make people understand more about different cultures, or is it that he simply wanted to ask audience a question what would they do in that situation? If so, my answer would be "Why would you like to know?", or "See what I do when that happens to me". But if it is about the different cultures and difficulties understanding them, then I'd ask why to place such a story in the sci-fi setting in the first place?

There is something what I have always disliked in the mathematical type logic when it is applied to common life. There is no white knights that always tell the truth nor the black knights that always lie, and no smart questions that would reveal which knight this one is. The physicist, or should I say the realist instead in me is simply screaming loud that it doesn't work that way! So is it that the text tries to push its point too hard, because it all starts to unfold as a constructed philosophical question on which there isn't an answer, and that the purpose of this question is to reveal something about the person answering to it? Whether I should learn something about myself or not after doing that is another thing.

EDIT: Aaaand Mongoose beat me to it
Relaxed movement is always more effective than forced movement.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Test your morality: The Babyeaters and the Superhappies
I don't know what to make of this story. It smells like an artificially constructed moral problem, which is conveniently placed on further future to allow more creative freedom for the writer; but that tends to imply certain type of laziness towards the affairs of current day. There were also several occasions where it broke my suspension of disbelief, but I confess that the reception towards sci-fi and fantasy tends to change with age. Overall I say that I could have spent those 20 minutes reading it worse.

That's exactly what it is. The author (who is not a great writer at all) says up front it's a constructed moral problem in a convenient future.

Quote
There is something what I have always disliked in the mathematical type logic when it is applied to common life. There is no white knights that always tell the truth nor the black knights that always lie, and no smart questions that would reveal which knight this one is. The physicist, or should I say the realist instead in me is simply screaming loud that it doesn't work that way! So is it that the text tries to push its point too hard, because it all starts to unfold as a constructed philosophical question on which there isn't an answer, and that the purpose of this question is to reveal something about the person answering to it? Whether I should learn something about myself or not after doing that is another thing.

Yeah I don't think this has anything to do with what the text is actually saying, and I have no idea where you got it.

  

Offline Mars

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Re: Test your morality: The Babyeaters and the Superhappies
But you're arguing that from the human standpoint. 'Pain is okay because it works for us, it's been the key to our survival.' Well, the Babyeaters have survived by eating their babies; it's the very neural foundation of their system of morality. The Superhappies evolved in an environment where pain was as useless and repulsive to them as eating babies is to us.

See the analogy?
There is a clear analogy, however - in one environment individuals experience a range of emotions, and have learned how to promote the positive ones, whilst still experiencing the negative ones. If a human decides that they've had enough of pain, I doubt there's a lack of technology to eliminate it for that individual - as a matter of fact it's stated to exist.

If the Super Happies had merely insisted on making childbirth an orgasmic experience, I doubt there would be objection.

This is starkly different than for a species who causes completely needless harm and pain to their children. The S-H are actually shown to acknowledge that difference (being driven insane by the Baby Eaters). This type of situation is abuse, not self inflicted.


The logical ethical solution for the Super Happies would be to offer a painless existence for those who want is, they are limited in their empathy by their apparent lack of individual feeling.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Test your morality: The Babyeaters and the Superhappies
This is starkly different than for a species who causes completely needless harm and pain to their children. The S-H are actually shown to acknowledge that difference (being driven insane by the Baby Eaters). This type of situation is abuse, not self inflicted.

Right, but the Superhappies consider the harm and pain inflicted and experienced by humans to be equally needless, because their own existence proceeds without requiring it. They're to us what we are to the Baby Eaters.

 

Offline Mars

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Re: Test your morality: The Babyeaters and the Superhappies
They're not comparable. One is inflicting pain on ANOTHER sentient being, the other is inflicting pain on ones-self