Author Topic: The Great Darkness (major spoilers)  (Read 51003 times)

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Offline Aesaar

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The Great Darkness (major spoilers)
Alright, if you don't know what the Great Darkness is, it's the thing that chases you when Ken tells you not to turn around.

It's quite interesting, and I think one of the biggest new questions raised by Universal Truth.

Question 1: What is it?

Its tech description and its name in FRED (thebrahmansrosethebrahmansfell) appears to imply it's a remnant of the Brahmans, the thing that killed them, or a direct result of their extinction.  The cargo containers in Ken, which concern the Brahmans, are also important to consider.  You may read what those say here, in the Forces Involved list.

Question 2: how much of a threat is it?

It found an unprotected entity in the Nagari network ridiculously quickly.  Noemi was there for about two minutes (Nagari time) before it found her.  More than that, right after Ken says "Search the leviathan's jaws. I will prepare the way.", Noemi says "I can still feel that presence. Enormous. Malignant.".  It was suggested on IRC that Noemi may have crossed some sort of threshold when that happened, moved beyond CASSANDRA, which attracted the Great Darkness's attention.  If the Nagari network is a labyrinth like Ken suggests, is the GD its Minotaur?

Ken seems to have an idea of what it was, but refuses to discuss it.  There are two questions Ken refuses to answer.  The first is about the Great Darkness, and he tells you to think of something else.  The second is about why the Shivans dont adapt/evolve more quickly.  His answer: "You assume that thinking quickly and planning well is not itself a fatal weakness.  This is a topic we cannot dwell on. The risks are catastrophic.".  Related, perhaps? 

It's like even thinking/talking about it can attract its attention.


Wild mass guessing ahead. Don't ask me to defend this theory.  I can't without more info: 

The Great Darkness isn't a threat to anything by itself, or it's at least containable.  The Shivans kill civilizations on the verge of discovering Nagari access because the GD can interact with unprotected entities in the network and become something the Shivans can't handle.

This is why the Shivans are so paranoid about the Vishnans protecting humanity.  If they **** up, the Great Darkness becomes a seriously huge concern.  To which the Vishnans respond: "Their species will enter the one out of many, the Summed Psyche. The walls are ours, as are all those who cross them."  The Vishnans think their protections sufficient.  The Shivans do not.  The cull must continue, because there's too much at stake.

The ontovore isn't the Shivans, it's the Great Darkness.  And the one thing they can't do is kill it.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2013, 09:56:40 am by Aesaar »

 

Offline Veers

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Re: The Great Darkness (major spoilers)
I turned around on my second playthrough, of course..

FK it scared me, I was not expecting that at all. I should have known that BP is and is cabable of doing things that may not have been done previously. I was just expecting some sort of a ship or image. Not an entire sequence.

Very well thought post, I had thought that it was most likely going to be a shivan or vishnan construct, rather than something completely different. Damn me for not having the time to crack open any further details yet.

I wonder... what happens if it is unleashed (other than total doom and gloom)
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Offline Gunteen6

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Re: The Great Darkness (major spoilers)
An interesting theory, and leaves much to ponder on...

but it makes me wonder, why do the shivans have a way out for us? Why should they care?

The vishnans have some goal they're working towards, and they want to use US to get it. Vs aren't happy with Ss for some reason, and were originally telling them to **** off at the end of AoA... but the vision that laporte sees contradicts this...

FFFFFFFFFFFF I WANT MORE BLUE PLANET
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Offline Ravenholme

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Re: The Great Darkness (major spoilers)
You're right, it does throw the cargo containers in Ken in an entirely new light. Especially the "second dialogue", the one between the Gardeners (Shivans) and the Wallkeepers (Vishnans) - About the darkness that stalks the cold roads or whatever. I always assumed it was something they had unleashed in an alternate universe or subspace, not something stalking the Nagari networks. Not to say that it can't be both, of course, but in that case.... what is coming?

I think I need to replay Universal Truth and turn around.
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Offline Jellyfish

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Re: The Great Darkness (major spoilers)
I wonder... what happens if it is unleashed (other than total doom and gloom)
The APOCALYPSE!
"A weapon is only as powerful as its wielder. With this weapon, you'll be but an annoyance, which would greatly dishonor it. With this weapon, I can change history. With me, this weapon can shape the universe."

 
Re: The Great Darkness (major spoilers)
There was a third question that Ken didn't answer. The Shivan Origins module. When you dig further, you these lines:
"secondary: selective pressure for resumption of panoptic function. secondary: suppression of destructive firewall strategies"
"PRIMARY: imperate! metastatic ontovoric acatalepsis event! subversion of noosphere un - TERMINATE"

And then, crucially, your Downlink display on your HUD displays INTERRUPTED. I don't think that was more direct info about Shivan origins. I think that was Laporte being threatened by a spreading cancer that eats sentients and is related to incomprehensibility, and the Shivans interrupting the train of information that lead to that. The un- is probably underway.

 

Offline Aesaar

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Re: The Great Darkness (major spoilers)
TheDemon: Good catch, I had missed that.

"resumption of panoptic function": The Shivans' role in searching for Nagari activity, and subsequent prevention through annihilation?

"Subversion of noosphere underway": I concur with your assessment.  Laporte narrowly avoids death/insanity and doesn't even realise it.  Hell, if the Shivans take such direct action here, it could have been much worse than just Laporte.  Noosphere usually implies more than one mind.  If Laporte or another Nagari sensitive had done that without Ken there to moderate the connection, that could have resulted in exactly what the Shivans seek to prevent.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2013, 09:00:36 am by Aesaar »

 
Re: The Great Darkness (major spoilers)
On panoptic function, there's a GTVI tech room entry on the Vishnans that hypothesizes (and the debriefing of Universal Truth agrees) that their Great Psyche is an entity that exists in subspace, which surrounds (or walls in) all universes. The tech room entry goes on to say that from subspace, this Summed Psyche should be able to observe all space-time in a limited manner. Panoptic function. The Vishnans are the observers to our multiverse-prison.

My current guess on that Shivan quote is that when they entered our multiverse, one of their objectives was to place someone in the observer position. Sounds like the origin of the Vishnans and their Summed Psyche to me.

 

Offline Spoon

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Re: The Great Darkness (major spoilers)
Fun fact from the BP Beta

Spoiler:
When you turned around you were shown a BSoD before the mission ended
Urutorahappī!!

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Offline docfu

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Re: The Great Darkness (major spoilers)
I'm actually really tempted to open up the data files and browse all the textures used in Universal Truth so I can see what's written on all those debriefing screens you flash...

 

Offline Damage

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Re: The Great Darkness (major spoilers)
They're all in bp2-visuals2.vp , I had a quick look through the .png files.  I think some of those pics were specifically chosen for their WTF quotient.  And what the hell is
Spoiler:
eye4.png
supposed to be???
I didn't feel like putting anything here.  Then I did it anyway just to be contrary.

 

Offline docfu

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Re: The Great Darkness (major spoilers)
Wow, there's some warped stuff in there...

 
Re: The Great Darkness (major spoilers)
It's like even thinking/talking about it can attract its attention.

Dammit, Orz, there are to be no *parties* in Freespace! Go get your *special sauce* elsewhere!
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Offline Crybertrance

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Re: The Great Darkness (major spoilers)
I'm actually really tempted to open up the data files and browse all the textures used in Universal Truth so I can see what's written on all those debriefing screens you flash...

Wait, there was more than one debriefing screen flash? I got only one while escaping from the vishnans near the nodes near the 14th BG
<21:08:30>   Hartzaden fires a slammer at Cybertrance
<21:09:13>   Crybertrance pops flares, but wonders how Hartzaden acquired aspect lock on a stealth fighter... :\
<21:11:58>   *** The_E joined #bp [email protected]
21:11:58   +++ ChanServ has given op to The_E
<21:12:58>   Hartzaden continues to paint crybertrance and feeding the info to a wing of gunships
<21:14:07>   Crybertrance sends emergency "IM GETING MY ASS KICKED HERE!!!!eleventy NEED HELPZZZZ" to 3rd fleet command
<21:14:50>   Hartzaden jamms the transmission.
<21:14:51>   The_E explodes the sun

 

Offline Jellyfish

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Re: The Great Darkness (major spoilers)
Here go my guesses:

The Great Darkness is something unique to biologicals, or biological sentients. It's the darkness, the chaos within us. so to speak.
The Shivans and Vishnans are immune to it, as they aren't biological in nature. The Brahmans were, and they fell to it. Cue the First Apocalypse.

Neither of the two races understood what happened at first, as they couldn't understand the Great Darkness, let alone fight it, but they had measures to prevent it from ever happening again. The Vishnans were to give every biological with potential to achieve 'enlightenment' the chance to do so. Those that didn't have the potential or failed to 'enlighten', like the Ancients, were left to die by the Shivans. Those that succeeded became part of the Great Psyche, which the Vishnans control.

Aken Bosch then 'merged' with the Shivans, and they learned about the Great Darkness. This proved their system right, and the cull continued.
The Vishnans knew about the Great Darkness and Humanity's potential to achieve 'enlightenment' through FS1 Alpha One, and started to passively intervene. Then Samuel Bei merged with the Vishnans and they redoubled their efforts for a short while. They started losing hope and began to write Humanity off as a failure after the GTVA-UEF war went on, despite their intervention.

Aken Bosch at some point broke a deal to the Shivans, to do what they cannot: fight the Great Darkness. In exchange, they'll let us live. At first the Shivans didn't believe we could, so they went on with the cull. Or they blew up Capella as an 'or else'.
But Noemi's presence may have changed their minds.
"A weapon is only as powerful as its wielder. With this weapon, you'll be but an annoyance, which would greatly dishonor it. With this weapon, I can change history. With me, this weapon can shape the universe."

 

Offline -Sara-

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Re: The Great Darkness (major spoilers)
Didn't Khonsu II's jester mention great darkness?
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Offline Shivan Hunter

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Re: The Great Darkness (major spoilers)
To quote from The Rift: "The Jester was fixated upon something he called a 'deepness' which he could not describe." Also, quoting from the Ken mission, "Your creators blundered once, and in doing so, unleashed the deepness that stalks the cold roads of the cosmos" and (possibly related) "The old burnt the cosmos clean in the wars of their youth. Never again will that price be paid." And of course, we know that BP is keeping with the [V] hint that the Shivans are a symptom of a larger problem.

Based on how it finds anyone talking or even thinking about it via Nagari, it may be something integral to the Nagari process itself. <wild_speculation> So far we know nothing about how the Shivans/Vishnans physically communicate. What if they're dependent on another system for Nagari, something connected to the Great Darkness? </wild_speculation>

I have to play Universal Truth a few dozen more times before I'm at all qualified to speak on its contents, however.

[EDIT] Just played it a couple times and ripped the file open in FRED to read everything at my own pace.

"resumption of panoptic function": The Shivans' role in searching for Nagari activity, and subsequent prevention through annihilation?

"Subversion of noosphere underway": I concur with your assessment.  Laporte narrowly avoids death/insanity and doesn't even realise it.  Hell, if the Shivans take such direct action here, it could have been much worse than just Laporte.  Noosphere usually implies more than one mind.  If Laporte or another Nagari sensitive had done that without Ken there to moderate the connection, that could have resulted in exactly what the Shivans seek to prevent.

Small but probably crucial correction: it's panontic function. I believe this is related to the the ontovore which is also mentioned, using onto- to mean a living being, in which case the ontovore is something that eats or destroys all life, and "panontic function" refers to the function of all life ("function" meaning a computational function, which may be how the Shivans/Vishnans conceptualize life).

Also, the "noosphere" is mentioned later in the conversation witnessed by Laporte and Bei:

"If they have turned on themselves, they are failures. The panontos cannot be theirs. The noosphere can never be theirs."

<wild speculation>This suggests that the panontos and noosphere are things, possibly states of mind or vast mainframes constructed by the Brahman(s) which a mind (not an organic, finite mind- possibly not even the Shivans/Vishnans) could use or inhabit.

Of course, the Shivans in that conversation say that we could never achieve it or wouldn't be able to use it- it seems they believe our civil wars represent a crucial failing we could never overcome.</wild speculation>

(another random tangent: is it Brahmans, or Brahman? On separate occasions, the Shivans and Vishnans seem to switch between referring to it as a species and a single entity. Actually, it could be that the Shivans use one, and the Vishnans the other... I should look up all the references to it/them and see if this is the case)

[EDIT2, possibly less off-topic, omg so many words]

Part of the exposition when Laporte asks about the Great War is this:

"external heuristic injection: mandate node severance fallback. force binary isolation/extinction outcome"

Two important things, the first one I didn't notice until now. Cutting Sol off from the GTVA was not an accident; the Shivans did this intentionally. It seems it was a fallback plan... fallback to what, exactly? Ken admits the Shivans accomplished their mission in the Great War: to kill us, or force us to really unite (xenocultural integration). Would the Terrans and Vasudans have returned to war eventually if the Sol node weren't cut off (or did the Shivans predict that)?

Secondly, and more importantly: "external heuristic injection". Laporte notices this. Something told the Shivans that it would be a good idea to do this- something outside their own protocol. Could it be, or be related to, the Great Darkness?

« Last Edit: January 13, 2013, 06:05:13 pm by Shivan Hunter »

 

Offline docfu

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Re: The Great Darkness (major spoilers)
Two important things, the first one I didn't notice until now. Cutting Sol off from the GTVA was not an accident; the Shivans did this intentionally.

Really? Wow. So wait...if the Shivans INTENTIONALLY cut off Sol...then that means Alpha 1 and the squadrons that blew up the Lucifer inside the Sol-Delta Serpentis jump node were actually Shivan agents conducting espionage!

Which means that I, the player, have been working for the Shivans ALL ALONG.

(Of course, that didn't stop the Shivans from blowing up Vasuda Prime instead of just cutting it off...)


 

Offline The E

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Re: The Great Darkness (major spoilers)
Quote
"external heuristic injection: mandate node severance fallback. force binary isolation/extinction outcome"

Two important things, the first one I didn't notice until now. Cutting Sol off from the GTVA was not an accident; the Shivans did this intentionally. It seems it was a fallback plan... fallback to what, exactly? Ken admits the Shivans accomplished their mission in the Great War: to kill us, or force us to really unite (xenocultural integration). Would the Terrans and Vasudans have returned to war eventually if the Sol node weren't cut off (or did the Shivans predict that)?

Not to rain on your parade, but you're quoting from the text for the "Shivans and Capella" node. This is not related to the Lucifer incident.
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Re: The Great Darkness (major spoilers)
Are you sure? I'm fairly certain that's the "probe further" response to the Great War node.


Secondly, and more importantly: "external heuristic injection". Laporte notices this. Something told the Shivans that it would be a good idea to do this- something outside their own protocol. Could it be, or be related to, the Great Darkness?

The Shivan records mention "external heuristic injection" at another point: the Capella conflict.

Relevant entry:

"local autonomous strategic response underway. no addition cull triggered: threshold inflamed but external heuristic injection: HOLD."

Given what Ken said, their "strategic response" would be their battles with the GTVA in the nebula and Gamma Draconis. The battle is underway despite no cull being triggered... then all of a sudden they get a "HOLD" command from "external".
Now look what they say next: it's almost like the Shivan mind is arguing with itself:

"strategic impulse: orion arm arteria threatened: coagulate, coordinate, repel"

It's like the Shivan mind is saying "Hold? We're being threatened here! Our job at this point is to repel the threat. Why hold?"

Then:

"apatic anima supervisory issues covert resolution: execute roadblock. generate transabyssal connection. stand by."

One of their animas came up with a compromise: detonate Capella (the "roadblock"). This keeps the GTVA out of Shivan territory as much as it keeps the Shivans out of GTVA territory. (Note that Capella is also a part of this "transabyssal gate" thing, so they were likely killing two birds with one stone.)

I'm thinking this "external heuristic" during the Second Incursion was Bosch contacting them with ETAK. When that happens the Shivans begin negotiations, necessitating the "HOLD" order. But they cannot hold: the GTVA was intruding on their systems. So they compromised by cutting the GTVA off from their space (ironically, the exact same thing the GTVA was doing).

I don't think we can assume that any "external heuristic" is the Great Darkness or whatever. It's just any contact they receive from an outside source. The Vishnans communicating with them in Age of Aquarius" probably was another "external heuristic".
"You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?" -DEATH, Discworld