[The E]

Hhmmmm, you may be right. It's been a while since I aactually looked closely at the text in UT2.

[Shivan Hunter]

I think DH is right about the "external heuristic injection" in the Capella dialogue being Bosch contacting them. But that leaves the question open as to what the first one was. Another possible answer is the GTI- they were studying Shivans (and developing ETAK-like technology) even before the Great War so they may have contacted the Shivans as well. I'll have to look through the briefing about the Idun Dictionary to tell if this is even a possibility, but at least it's reminded me about a plotline that I haven't thought about in a while.

[-Sara-]

I had a new line of thought. The Great Darkness may be a sort of vacuum, which feeds on reality or existence itself, through subspace. Subspace may be like a conduit for anything beyond the physical realm, a platform to browse through with Nagari, like cyberspace, where all realities can meet.

The Great Darkness may have existed before the Brahmans themselves. Rather than having created the Great Darkness, the Brahmans may have filled the vacuum of the Great Darkness, so it does not continue devour. But like all things born, the Brahmans eventually died and they created the Vishnans to find species which could replace Brahmans. Still, the Brahmans made one fatal mistake: the Vishnans were created and therefor they can also die.

Something that can die, is inherently afraid to die and the Vishnans are breaking away from their purpose to try and survive themselves. Maybe humanity is in their eyes a temporary stopgap which delays the inevitable, the Vishnans death. Perhaps the Sync joke in the Universal Truth mission actually is a metaphore for a sink-plug that is plugged into the Great Darkness, a vacuum.

The Shivans may want humanity to take the Vishnans place. If we have shown them one thing, it is that we're not afraid of dying and we do not try to outrun death. We faced the Shivans head on, against all odds. If the Vishnans have started to deceive the Shivans out of fear of the Great Darkness, then humankind is a more solid choice as future wallkeepers. Aken Bosch's deal with the Shivans might be that we'll replace the Vishnans and do a better job at whatever they do. There's no place in that for Vasudans as they are far too prone to resign to fate.

As the Shivans always existed and are eternal, they cannot die. They do not experience fear as the Vishnans might and therefor do not act in desperation. We have been shown they take their time and that they can obivously afford to do so. That inherently does not give them a basis to be 'evil' or 'wrongdoers', unlike the Vishnans who CAN die and grow desperate. They are far less prone to betray us, unlike the Vishnans would.

On a funny note, if Dreamscape is like the internet, does that make the Nagari network something of a deep web?

[crizza]

I dn't like the notion, that the Zods don't fit into the plans of the Shivans and Vishnans, and therefore are to be culled...
But maybe I'm interpreting things wrong.

[An4ximandros]

 Another idea I had from Sara's post is that, judging the similar outlooks of the cosmos the Vishnans and Vasudans have, you'll use the Vasudans to replace them while the Humans take up the role of Brahman, filling the "insentient" void of nothingness that constantly tries to fill itself by absorbing whatever is "near" it.

 I am curious though, what if the thing we should not be thinking about is a byproduct of the Dawn War... or if it predates it in a similar way the Shivans do?

 Judging by some of the insanity images we get (which resemble 3d renders of cellular automatons), another idea I had is The Great Darkness is some sort of Nagari carcass of the Brahmans. The Brahmans rose, the Brahmans fell, look upon what is left of their might and tremble in fear of the works of reality.

[Dark Hunter]

I dn't like the notion, that the Zods don't fit into the plans of the Shivans and Vishnans, and therefore are to be culled...
But maybe I'm interpreting things wrong.

We haven't heard what either the Vishnans or the Shivans think about the Vasudans. Perhaps they have something in mind for them as well. But the characters are more focused on what's happening to the Terrans, so that's what everyone's talking about.

[SaltyWaffles]

I wonder... what happens if it is unleashed (other than total doom and gloom)

The APOCALYPSE!

Yeah, all the species will die via horrific extermination by unknowable, uncaring alie--oh wait.

[General Battuta]

What do lab researchers generally do with a cell culture that's deviated from experimental protocols?

[SaltyWaffles]

What do lab researchers generally do with a cell culture that's deviated from experimental protocols?

See what happens?

Seriously though, sapient species are another matter entirely, especially if they're immediately capable of joining the Summed Psyche.

[General Battuta]

The Summed Psyche obviously has enormous available computational capability. (This is a running theme in Blue Planet by now, I think it's clear.) If they issued a kill order on the human species, something changed between the end of AoA - when they attempted direct intervention to preserve their Ubuntu experiment, and also arranged for the Sanctuary to be moved to 'our' universe - and whenever the 'silence' began.

We may not have access to the moral systems they operate on, if morality - a set of rules for organizing a sustainable society, meant to be internalized by each individual  - is meaningful to them at all. But inasmuch as game theory is a universal, we can still examine their decisions. What would motivate them to wipe out an entire species? Triage? A protocol? The blind or universal application of a heuristic that they consider, for whatever reason, inviolable?

[Luis Dias]

What do lab researchers generally do with a cell culture that's deviated from experimental protocols?

See what happens?

Seriously though, sapient species are another matter entirely, especially if they're immediately capable of joining the Summed Psyche.

Sapient species never seem to stop declaring their huge uniqueness and value. One could conclude they are a tad self-centered. One even might conclude they are a tad dangerous for that reason alone.

[Cyborg17]

What would motivate them to wipe out an entire species? Triage? A protocol? The blind or universal application of a heuristic that they consider, for whatever reason, inviolable?

Either that, self-preservation, or the conservation of power.  It could be the Shambala project is against their protocols and the elders did not know it. It could be that whatever the Shivans cannot accomplish has to do with a rivalry between the Shivans and Vishnans and destroys/hampers the Vishnans or goes against their protocol.  My guess is that the reason why the Vishnans have turned their backs is strongly tied to the rivalry between Vishnan and Shivan.

[Aardwolf]

strategic impulse: orion arm arteria threatened: coagulate, coordinate, repel

Oh wow. Combine overwatch voice, much?

[General Battuta]

Are you pointing out a similarity or making an accusation of plagiarism?

[Aardwolf]

similarity

but i can accuse too if you want

[General Battuta]

Remember, citizen, inaction is conspiracy.

[BritishShivans]

I liek combine overwatch voice

it's cool

[crizza]

So, we've seen the Universal Truth from two viewpoints...
But what if the great darkness is simply a sort of illness which blinds all those who are Nagari-sensetiv, thus robbing Shivanas and Vishnans of potential pawns?

On a complete unrelated sidenote: Shivans are some sort of supercumputers, the Vishnans some hivemind spanning space and times.
What if the Shivans could be infected and the Vishnans being...mindkilled?
Or what if the Terrans and Zods could somehow disable the terminal directive(or was it called otherwise?) thus freeing both superspecies?
But my most favored solution is using the Sanctuary as some sort of super Nagaridevice with Sam and Laporte to controll the Vishnans and Shivans.

[Dark Hunter]

Good luck with that last one.

I think, in a direct mental confrontation, the Shivans or the Vishnans would roflstomp any human mind, or network of human minds, that tried to battle them. The only reason Laporte survived the Vishnan's mental assault was that Ken was protecting her.

Remember, the only reason any humans are nagari sensitive is because either the Shivans or the Vishnans interfered. Nagari sensitivity is not natural, and all contact so far has been on their terms, not humanity's. Even Laporte's contact into the connection was supported and assisted by Ken: the only reason it worked is because Ken allowed it to.

[crizza]

And thats the whole thing, both factions use the humans as means to fight their war.

"Rise untill lambs become lions", thats how it'll end, mark my words.
But I agree on the roflstomp part.