[Jetmech Jr.]

Not much of a threat, really. They had to rely on Ancient writings to find the weakness, and they only barely managed to exploit it in time. The Shivans also had to know the extent of they're offensive and defensive capabilities at the time, as well, so how exactly do they grow to fear a massive armada of colins? They would've been able to put 2 and 2 together, and realize "y'know what? I don't think they have anymore of them big ships."

[Hippo]

Well, they saw a chance to use Capella to go elsewhere at the same time, to the took the opprotunity...

[NGTM-1R]

23 years is a long time, and the GTVA was much better equipped to deal with the Shivans the second time around. (The reason it feels like you're winning early on in the game is because you probably are.)

Actually, I think the Shivans had never seen anybody with a juggernaut-class vessel besides themselves. And considering they have 80+ themselves, they would be willing to be credulous of a large fleet of juggernauts. They have them. Why not someone else?

[Jetmech Jr.]

Think about it. If the shivans knew the technological level of the GTVA back then, they would also likely have some idea of their production capabilities, based on the number of ships that were sent at em. It's not hard to figure that the GTVA wouldn't have the resources to manufacture an armada of such ships in such relatively little time.

Why not someone else? Because the GTVA never used any such vessels or technology in the first encounter, when they could have made a much bigger difference, and ended the war swiftly, decisively, and with fewer losses.

[NGTM-1R]

Again, because it takes time to get such vessels around. They're big. They're slow. And it's a rare admiral who sends his most valuable ships into uncharted, hostile territory. You send something of lesser value first.

[Jetmech Jr.]

They have subspace. Incredibly fast travel via nodes and intersystem jumps. You make it sound as though FS2 vessels use conventional drives to traverse long distances

If you have multiple destroyer level ships destroyed by the Lucifer, and you had a ship that could take it apart, then eventually, you send in that ship.

[NGTM-1R]

You misunderstand me...and ignore the point made repeatedly that the Lucifer fleet couldn't have had communications with home base, else they would have called for backup.

How long does it take a ship to traverse a system? Several days, at least? The Aquitane's transit to Epsilon Pegausi from the Nebula took at least a week. The ships would have to come from all across the GTVA, making multiple jumps and crossing multiple systems.  And they wouldn't come alone, they'd bring their battlegroups with them. Orions and Hecates are slower then the Colossus. Tack on the transit time for them, the corvettes, the cruisers, and the resupply train.

There's also the point that the GTVA wouldn't have seen any real reason to panic up until the 80+ Sathani showed up. They seemed to be holding their own against the more conventional  Shivan forces in the nebula, even pushing them back. One Sathanas was not such a cause for concern, the GTVA had the Colossus ready and waiting, in addition to a plan for a massed destroyer attack that would have worked, based on information you collected in "A Monster In The Mist". It was only until a lot of the Sathani started showing up that the GTVA fleet in the area was clearly outclassed.

[Jetmech Jr.]

I completely forgot what this was about...

Well, I've kinda lost my momentum (I usually only come up with decent arguments in short bursts), but I'll try:

I have a Hard time believing that the Shivans had absolutely no contact with the "Home Base." No matter how big and bad you are, you always keep some line of communication back home .

IIRC, the GTVA was frightened as hell of the Sathanas. Quote: You'll have to take out at least two of the Sathanas' Main Beam Cannons for the Collosus to stand a chance. That suggests they had a decent amount of respect for the danger it represented, and of the sheer offensive punch just one such ship had.

TBH, now that I reflect back, neither of our opinions has any substantial proof behind them. Either one seems just as likely.

[StratComm]

You must remember that the Lucifer nearly destroyed earth, and so there was no need to call in reinforcements until the command ship was already gone.  If there's one thing about the Shivans that can actually be inferred from canonical sources, it's that they have little concern for losses.

As for everything else, well I do believe it takes relatively little time to cross a system (several hours, if they take time and don't stress their subspace drives) but in time of crisis as little as a few minutes.  They jump in through a node, recharge their drives, jump to another node, and jump out through it.  All of which take essentially no time.  The reason the Aquitane took so long to get to Gamma Draconis is that they would have stopped in Capella to resupply and regroup.

[Kie99]

Well to solve the problem of the LRed you just get one of the destroyers to aim a BFGreen at the LRed and then unleash hell upon the Sath!

[TrashMan]

Agrred. Without the 4 beams, the Sath is weak.

4 destroyers attack it from the rear - it would probably get toasted...

[Jetmech Jr.]

Without their beams the Destroyers are weak. Without its beams the collosus is weak. Do you see the stupidity that statement represents?

[TrashMan]

I allso stated the inherent flaw of the Shivan designes - ALL FIREPOWER FORWARD. It's a very bad design...

[Jetmech Jr.]

Unless you have sheer offense in mind. Shivan ships have unparalleled offensive punch. No Destoryer can match a Ravana head on. Liliths pound multiple Fenris/Leviathan Cruisers into scrap, etc., etc.

The Sathanas doesn't bear mentioning in this regard...

[freespacegundam]

Originally posted by Jetmech Jr.
Unless you have sheer offense in mind. Shivan ships have unparalleled offensive punch. No Destoryer can match a Ravana head on. Liliths pound multiple Fenris/Leviathan Cruisers into scrap, etc., etc.
 

Corvettes, however, are a key area the Shivans lack.  I have never seen a Moloch take down either a Sobek or Deimos on its own(with the exception of one mission, in which the Sobek was already heavily damaged), and both alliance classes are frequently seen engaging larger targets.  Terrans and Vasudans may be outmatched in all other classes, but in terms of corvettes, they excel.   Get a Sobek with four Perseus flying cover, and you've got a dangerous little unit.

[deep_eyes]

Originally posted by Ransom Arceihn
They jumped to other systems without the use of a (known) node with Ross-128, so it's possible the ones that jumped out jumped to another system.

Remember this plot "point" closely for FREESPACE 1 AND 2....

"Shivans have an intimate knowledge of subspace beyond that of humans or vasudans. There knowledge of freespace is far more than expected."

DUH! i mean comon, if these guys existed for more than a millenia already, as a space faring race, for whatever reason, common sense would dictate, im sorry, that Shivans obviously can navigate subspace better than humans (heck maybe not but the fact that they "appear closer and more accurately to strategic places along the story its kinda obvious"). this is always a moot point of, "o wow for real?" and the, "no **** DAMN its that simple?"....

---------------

Mere speculation of course, but the fact is, they were able to get to Ross 128 by some means from out of system. than used an intersystem jump to get to ROSS128's main "HQ-installation" right?

Now, this is the conventional way of thinking. now for the sake of arguement, what if, they did use the normal way of subspace like "commonly used?", for instance, an artificial subspace conduit to anywhere they wish in the galaxy? This makes more sense and can be argued in favor of, if u point out key moments where the Shivans jump into systems, especially areas far from System-to-system nodes, near ALLIED FORCES, its easy to argue that its possible (story points aside since all we are doing is assuming), is that the shivans can navigate subspace non-conventionally via "artificial subspace" conduits....

thinkabout it, just about everything out there that man has "naturally made", can be inmitated, and "man made", only diffrence is that its possibly not as accurate or close, but its close enough.

[deep_eyes]

Originally posted by TrashMan
I allso stated the inherent flaw of the Shivan designes - ALL FIREPOWER FORWARD. It's a very bad design...

Yes its only good when u have all the Mission designers at V make all allied ships appear or placed infront of there big guns lol...

[ShadowWolf_IH]

i think that a point most people miss...unless i am missing something...is that the "Shivans arrived at Ross 128 without a node arguement" is in fact not a valid arguement.  Lt Ash jumped in running away from them.  They came from the same place he did.  They were in system.  

On the other hand.....the Shivans came through a collapsed node in FS2, if they came through a node at all to reach Capella.  To me, that says that they don't absolutely "need" nodes.  The big question then becomes...why do they use them at all?  Power strain?  Or can a Sathanas disrupt subspace enough to bend it to her will?  If that ends up the case.....imagine what 80 of them could do.  I still think that when we start discussing Shivan motives we need a simple....because they wanted to.  Anything about why they wanted to do anything is conjecture.  A very alien race with a very alien thought process.  The questions we have been kicking around since 1999 may or may not have been answered in FS3.  The only way i can see it happening is if we actually got to talk to them.....which may or may not be so far fetched...we still don't know exactly what happened to Bosch.  wouldn't it have been ironic if he had come back as the savior of us all in FS3?

[NGTM-1R]

Perhaps...but from whom?

[TrashMan]

Terran destroyers or criuisers by their design (shape, weapon, subsystems & engine placement) are superior to the shivans in most cases..

What really makes shivans more deadly is the fact that their beams have a re-charge time of 15 seconds tops, while terran have 25-30. On top of that the shivan beams fire for 7.0 seconds, while terran fire 4.0 - in other words, shivan beams are FOUR times as powerfull as terran ones.

I changed all the beam values to a mid centre between the two (20-25 sec recharge for all, 6 second fire for terrans, 7 for shivans), and belive me, shivans destroyers started to look pretty bad at that point...



On another note, in the last few FS2 mission it is clearly stated that "Shivans are just as dependant on subspace nodes as we are"