Author Topic: The Sathanas fleet?  (Read 24374 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline NGTM-1R

  • I reject your reality and substitute my own
  • 213
  • Syndral Active. 0410.
Bosch had access to Shivan tech? Since when?

He helped blow up what Shivan tech remained from The Great War during the Hades Rebellion.

Edit: Does the Iceni fire on you in "Return to Babel"? If it fired on Vasudan ships, then it's not too hard to deduce that the Shivans would have known Bosch was different from the rest of them. Considering they have ample evidence that Vasudans and Terrans are allied.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2004, 04:34:35 pm by 2191 »
"Load sabot. Target Zaku, direct front!"

A Feddie Story

 

Offline Kie99

  • 211
Quote
Originally posted by aldo_14


Besides which, if it had been a rudimentary 'bird call', how would Bosch have known that the Shivans were sending transports?


Maybe he didn't

We're not going to agree as there isn't enough evidence

*offers truce*
"You shot me in the bollocks, Tim"
"Like I said, no hard feelings"

 

Offline aldo_14

  • Gunnery Control
  • 213
Quote
Originally posted by kietotheworld


Maybe he didn't

We're not going to agree as there isn't enough evidence

*offers truce*


Er...sorry, but he did.

As I make this final entry my crew is preparing to scuttle the Iceni and board the shivan transports. We embark on a miraculous journey towards a new horizon. This tragic era of hatred and misunderstanding between our races is over. On this day, for the first time in my life, I am filled with joy.

 

Offline Kie99

  • 211
Oh yeah, forgot about that :o
"You shot me in the bollocks, Tim"
"Like I said, no hard feelings"

 
Quote
Originally posted by kietotheworld
The Shivans have no idea of the size of the GTVA, when the Sath jumped into GTVA Space it had its beams disabled then "Colin" wiped the floor with it! The sHivan's were scared, they had lost there most powerful warship (or 1 of there most powerful anyway, seen as we don't know the size of the Shivan Armada)They had probably never lost such a powerful vessel to an enemy and were on the Hop.


So to recap, after being totally demoralised, their fleet terrified and disorganised, and with offensive action out of the question, they executed coordinated attacks on all military ships in Capella, maintained an attack on all escaping convoys, matched pound-for-pound GTVA deployment in cruisers and corvettes, and FOUGHT THE GTVA TO THE BLOODY DEATH.  All this while messing with the star, sacrificing many ships in their efforts, whatever it was they were doing.

Do I have to point out that AFTER the inital Sathy was destroyed, the Colossus was sliced and diced in a hilariously brief time, the GTVA was running away as fast as it could, and the deployment of Operation:Close the Door would make it PAINFULLY obvious to the Shivans that the GTVA felt it was totally screwed.  All this after being struck dumb by the loss of a single ship, sent in with no support, which continued its attack after being crippled.  I rate the operation as a success; it drew the heaviest GTVA combatant to the front line where it was destroyed in short order.  If they'd have five Colins, they ALL would have been bought to the front, and ALL destroyed.  Its called a draw, and it worked.

Whats the support for the idea the Shivans were scared?  Well... they DID lose a Sath.  But they lose potentially dozens in the operation at the star, and that doesn't really make sense if one was a titanic, world-shaking loss, because they were hardly likely to lose that many Sathanas' in the entire 'Kill The GTVA' campaign.   I agree that the GTVA was secondary to the Shivans, that much is obvious, but its also obvious that the Shivans don't care about losses.  I wouldn't either if I could casually deploy 100-odd juggernaughts to some wacky backwater for a Lovecraftian ritual.

So, the Shivans could have wiped the floor with the GTVA, they KNEW they could have wiped the floor with the GTVA, the GTVA knew they would end up wiping the floor, and the whole evacuation, the destruction of the node, the desperate retreat, they all let the Shivans know this, because none would have happened if the GTVA thought they had a chance.  But the Shivans didn't care; they had better things to do.

 

Offline aldo_14

  • Gunnery Control
  • 213
Of course, maybe the Shivans weren't scared of the GTVA, but something else. :nervous:

 

Offline Zarax

  • 210
Yeah, they are fleeing from endless swarms of smurfs ;)
The Best is Yet to Come

 

Offline NGTM-1R

  • I reject your reality and substitute my own
  • 213
  • Syndral Active. 0410.
Hey, the Smurfs are true evil.

And no, it doesn't make it obvious to the Shivans. The GTVA (or as far as the Shivans know the GTVA) has one Knossos. Why not more? Why not blow the node with a Knossos set up on the far side so that the Shivans couldn't use it, but the GTVA could use a Knossos to prop it open for a counterstrike?
Even assuming the Shivans have Bosch, they may not believe him. After all, they may conclude that Bosch is insane. There's plenty of evidence for that. How exactly he thought Shivans could ever get along with humans is a mystery to us, and it's probably a mystery to the Shivans too.
Of course, if the Shivans are a hive mind, there is also the possiblity they don't understand the concepts of "lying" or "insane". Which could bring us to another interesting possiblity: it's all Bosch fault. Literally.
Bosch, once among the Shivans, discovers that they cannot be swayed from their xenocidal course. So he gives them a load of absolute garbage about the GTVA's strength. Bosch has always been in this, at least in his own head, for the good of the human race. The Shivans won't stop until they've killed everybody, so to save humanity, Bosch lies. The Colossus is merely one of a thousand such ships. The fleet the Shivans have fought so far is nothing but a patrolling border taskforce.
Consequently, the Shivans decide they are in way the heck over their heads and blow up Capella as a means of either sealing themselves off from this superpower or escaping it.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2004, 11:27:57 am by 2191 »
"Load sabot. Target Zaku, direct front!"

A Feddie Story

 

Offline Liberator

  • Poe's Law In Action
  • 210
I still think that the Shivans are less interested in killing us than they are forcing us to improve our technology and tactics so we(the GTVA) can either join them in their war with the Others or replace them as the Destroyers(how's that for irony)
So as through a glass, and darkly
The age long strife I see
Where I fought in many guises,
Many names, but always me.

There are only 10 types of people in the world , those that understand binary and those that don't.

 

Offline Kie99

  • 211
*nods in approval at ngtm1r* :nod:
"You shot me in the bollocks, Tim"
"Like I said, no hard feelings"

 

Offline Zarax

  • 210
Hmm, a pretty costly way, isn't it?
The Best is Yet to Come

 

Offline NGTM-1R

  • I reject your reality and substitute my own
  • 213
  • Syndral Active. 0410.
Better to lose a few Sathani now then all of them later? Or, from Bosch's point of view, better to lose Capella now then all of humanity later.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2004, 01:11:16 pm by 2191 »
"Load sabot. Target Zaku, direct front!"

A Feddie Story

 
Quote
Originally posted by ngtm1r

 [/B]


My thats a lot of unsupported conjecture.  Hive mind?  Boschs capture?  GTVA as a superpower?  I mean, really.  Want to prove Bosch is even alive?  Didn't think so.  And why wouldn't they listen to the words of some loon instead of reports from the front?  Probably because they're a hive mind, right?

Doubtless they recieved reports from Lucy fleet (remember, they're a hive mind now :rolls:) which would have indicated average fleet size, tech level, etc.  They also know all the ships sent through the Knossos were pulled back or TOTALLY DESTROYED BY A SINGLE SATH.  The loss of Colin signalled the end of GTVA attempts to hold the Shivans back at the entry node, and lets not even talk about the 'Saths are ignoring her' part of the mission.  The Shivans could hardly miss the headlong retreat engaged in by the GTVA after barely any combat with them, and they must have known about the node-busting trick.

So lets think outside the box.  The GTVA send in their dumbass stealth fighter to gain info on the Sath.  Why couldn't the Shivans be doing the same thing with the initial Sath incursion?  As I said, if they'd ACTUALLY CARED about that Sath, it would have turned around.  Whenever I do it, its lost all four beams and both front flaks.  It would be destroyed by the ships already encountered in the nebula.  The first Sath doesn't care, and just plows on.  You could doubtless concoct MORE unsupported conjecture for this, perhaps they were trying to fix them, and didn't bother thinking that a pair of Cvs would've killed their hugely valuable Sath that they just couldn't bear to lose?  Maybe their ALIENS and don't plan ahead like humans do?

This whole 'maybe the GTVA are hardcore' line of thinking is totally unsupportable.  To be honest, since they Shivans largely ignored the GTVA, its also a red herring.  We all know the ships around Capella could have destroyed the GTVA in a week, and the GTVA running away like pussies and desperately defending a few thousand people in transports doesn't speak well for the 'trillions of uber humans' idea.  I mean how stupid would the GTVA have to be to not deploy all the other Colins, or GOSH all the uber ships bigger than her?  Fleet comp was exposed by the blockade; a few cruisers, a few Cvs, and Colin.  Absolutely nothing the Shivans can't handle(in seconds, no less).  But if you can point to a single action that supports this theory, go ahead.  We should not mistake the Shivan preoccupation with whatever attribute of the Capella star interested them for fear of the GTVA, although that is the most amusing idea for FS3 I've ever seen.  'Oh, just off a Sath and they'll run.  Oh, wait...'  For that to work, you must assume the Shivans are stupid, that they think the GTVA is ALSO stupid, and figure that the 'I don't need my beam cannons, I'll 'ave ya' Shivans weren't up for a campaign against the GTVA.

Anyway, the Sath can hardly be a kill attributed to Colin.  Colin did nothing; a pair of Cvs would have done just as well.  10 Cvs would have done better and been cheaper.  Alpha 1 crippled her, and he did that before it even jumped.

 

Offline NGTM-1R

  • I reject your reality and substitute my own
  • 213
  • Syndral Active. 0410.
Nice quote, by the way.

Quote
My thats a lot of unsupported conjecture. Hive mind? Boschs capture? GTVA as a superpower? I mean, really. Want to prove Bosch is even alive? Didn't think so. And why wouldn't they listen to the words of some loon instead of reports from the front? Probably because they're a hive mind, right?


I offer only conjecture, as that is all that can be offered. I would point out, however, that Bosch was alive the last time anyone saw him and being taken away by the Shivans in a living condition. Why bother to take him alive and kill him later unless you intend to ask questions? Don't tell me for experimentation: the only experimentation the Shivans would be interested in is how to most effectively kill a human, and you can learn that by studying the physiology of a corpse.
As for the hive mind, go check your FS2 Tech Room Intelligence. The canon says that's the best guess, so that would be... the best guess .
And your reports will be dealt with at a later point in this post.

Quote
Doubtless they recieved reports from Lucy fleet (remember, they're a hive mind now :rolls which would have indicated average fleet size, tech level, etc. They also know all the ships sent through the Knossos were pulled back or TOTALLY DESTROYED BY A SINGLE SATH. The loss of Colin signalled the end of GTVA attempts to hold the Shivans back at the entry node, and lets not even talk about the 'Saths are ignoring her' part of the mission. The Shivans could hardly miss the headlong retreat engaged in by the GTVA after barely any combat with them, and they must have known about the node-busting trick.


Doubtless they didn't hear anything from the Lucifer fleet, because if they could the remaing Shivans in the Lucifer fleet would have called for backup when the Lucifer died. A hive mind is not always in contact with all its members. Go look at an ant colony sometime.
They also know that all the ships were destroyed or pulled back. This tells them nothing, really, except that the GTVA did not have the forces at hand  to deal with the Sathanas. That does not mean that the GTVA doesn't have a  thousand Colossus-class ships somewhere. It just means they weren't readily available. More to the point, the GTVA could have dealt with the Sathanas. Recall the purpose of the mission right after "Monster in the Mist". You were trying to lure the Sathanas out so it could be destroyed by several GTVA destroyers. It didn't work, but that does not mean it could not have. The Shivans simply didn't take the bait.
Headlong retreat? Go play the Main Campaign again. The GTVA fleet was all but wiped out in Capella, that's mentioned several times. They didn't retreat. They pulled back to friendly territory rather then fight on their opponent's ground, which makes good tactical sense. Then they stood and fought, and mostly died. They were buying time. Time to evacuate Capella, which makes good sense no matter how you look at it, but that doesn't mean they couldn't be buying time for something else.

Quote
So lets think outside the box. The GTVA send in their dumbass stealth fighter to gain info on the Sath. Why couldn't the Shivans be doing the same thing with the initial Sath incursion? As I said, if they'd ACTUALLY CARED about that Sath, it would have turned around. Whenever I do it, its lost all four beams and both front flaks. It would be destroyed by the ships already encountered in the nebula. The first Sath doesn't care, and just plows on. You could doubtless concoct MORE unsupported conjecture for this, perhaps they were trying to fix them, and didn't bother thinking that a pair of Cvs would've killed their hugely valuable Sath that they just couldn't bear to lose? Maybe their ALIENS and don't plan ahead like humans do?


You amuse me. The first Sathanas saw about...10, 15 minutes worth of Capella at 25m/s? That's zilch. They couldn't learn crapdoodle from that. No Shivan ships got further then Capella until the decision to blow the star had been made.
Recall "High Noon". Recall that the Colossus parked itself stationary  near the node. The Sathanas jumped in. It probably still had a beam cannon or two working. The Shivans had never seen this kind of ship before, but hadn't been all that impressed with GTVA ships so far.
Then, holy crap, those damned Bakhas have taken out what's left of Sathanas' main battery and it's getting pounded on. At this point it has moved away from the node somewhat. Going back means stopping and turning around, then waiting for their subspace drives to recharge. All the while the Colossus is merrily vaporizing huge chunks of their hull. Uh-uh. Once in-system in Capella without a functional main battery and subspace drives recharging still, their only option was to make a run for it in normal space. That's what they did.
As to the alien bit, I have the perfect quote for that. "Any race capable of building spacecraft is not stupid ."

Quote
This whole 'maybe the GTVA are hardcore' line of thinking is totally unsupportable. To be honest, since they Shivans largely ignored the GTVA, its also a red herring. We all know the ships around Capella could have destroyed the GTVA in a week, and the GTVA running away like pussies and desperately defending a few thousand people in transports doesn't speak well for the 'trillions of uber humans' idea. I mean how stupid would the GTVA have to be to not deploy all the other Colins, or GOSH all the uber ships bigger than her? Fleet comp was exposed by the blockade; a few cruisers, a few Cvs, and Colin. Absolutely nothing the Shivans can't handle(in seconds, no less). But if you can point to a single action that supports this theory, go ahead. We should not mistake the Shivan preoccupation with whatever attribute of the Capella star interested them for fear of the GTVA, although that is the most amusing idea for FS3 I've ever seen. 'Oh, just off a Sath and they'll run. Oh, wait...' For that to work, you must assume the Shivans are stupid, that they think the GTVA is ALSO stupid, and figure that the 'I don't need my beam cannons, I'll 'ave ya' Shivans weren't up for a campaign against the GTVA.


I think I covered this already, but I'll go over it again just to make sure you understand. The GTVA fought a delaying action. They were evacuating Capella, which makes perfect sense even if they don't plan on blowing the nodes. Otherwise they'd have to use up ships to defend the civvies on a more permanent basis. Just because they were buying time for one obvious thing does not preclude the presence of another purpose. You've constructed a logical fallacy for yourself by assuming one precludes the other. Yes, we know that the GTVA didn't have them. The Shivans don't. They can't.
I've explained this one too. Quite simply, if they have a fleet that huge, they must have an area of space equally huge. And that fleet is spread out over that huge area of space. It takes time to get the fleet together. 80+ Juggernauts isn't something to laugh at even when you have a thousand of them yourself. Sending a fleet in piecemeal is folly, and the GTVA has demonstrated that they do in fact understand basic tactics time and again. They know better then to engage with an inferior force, certainly the Shivans have seen that.

I'm giving the Shivans credit for brains here, in case you're missing the point. Quite a bit of brains, in fact, with better strategic thinking then quite a few humans have demonstrated.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2004, 05:26:58 pm by 2191 »
"Load sabot. Target Zaku, direct front!"

A Feddie Story

 

Offline Kie99

  • 211
Back to the Sathanes, if I was Petrach i would just station about 10 destroyers with loads of escort at each exit point of Capella and then if a Sathanas jumps out of the node about 40 beam cannons hit it and it goes Boom!
"You shot me in the bollocks, Tim"
"Like I said, no hard feelings"

 

Offline aldo_14

  • Gunnery Control
  • 213
What makes you think they even had 10 destroyers available for that?

 

Offline Gloriano

  • silver dracon
  • 210
  • Oh
GTVA is like paper wall to Shivans
You must have chaos within you to give birth to a dancing star.- Nietzsche

When in despair I remember that all through history the way of truth and love has always won; there have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time they can seem invincible, but in the end they always fall.- Mahatma Gandhi

 

Offline Kie99

  • 211
Quote
Originally posted by aldo_14
What makes you think they even had 10 destroyers available for that?


Hate to say it but they would need 20-30 destroyers depending on the value of Gamma Draconis. But there are 21+ systems in the GTVA and 10 of them are probably major systems, so every major system must have a destroyer or 2 and systems like Vasuda, Beta Aquilae, Capella (although many would have been destroyed by the Sath Fleet) and Delta serpentis would probably have 4 or 5 flying about.

Course It would take a bit of time to get them to Vega and Epsilon Pegasi but Mjolnirs could be used until the destroyers got there.

Of course this is all my opinion so no 6-pronged attacks please :)
« Last Edit: October 07, 2004, 12:58:01 pm by 1934 »
"You shot me in the bollocks, Tim"
"Like I said, no hard feelings"

 

Offline Zarax

  • 210
NTF severly depleted than number, and you may not have the time to put them all in a place...
Plus there is something not really wise into putting all eggs into one basket...
Even with 10 destroyers around a sath is still capable to fry at least one of them before going down...
And sinnce GTVA had less than 80 destroyers you can easily figure how ineffective it would have been.
The Best is Yet to Come

 

Offline Kie99

  • 211
Yes but the GTVA could put the destroyers ""Behind"" the jump node so when the sath comes in it doesn't have time to turn and fry the GTVA destroyers

Quote

You may not have time to put them all in one place


Which is why i said you could use Mjolnirs (and lots of them :devil: ) :)
"You shot me in the bollocks, Tim"
"Like I said, no hard feelings"