[Hippo]

I walk away from the thread for a few hours, and i come back to Pnakotus *****ing up a storm whereas everyone else was starting to be nice and agreeable.

[Ghostavo]

Who's Colin?

[Mongoose]

Originally posted by Ghostavo
Who's Colin?

I'm pretty sure he means the Colossus .

[Liberator]

Originally posted by aldo_14


1/ they almost certainly do have good scientific tech to develop military tech.  You can't manufacture a fleet of 5km warships without some degree of scientific knowledge.

I have a problem with this statement.  I've recently been reading up on Warhammer 40k.  The Space Marines don't have a whole lot of technical knowledge and yet they are the supreme fighting force in the galaxy.  Granted the Machine Cult does a lot of the tech stuff, but the whole Terran Empire seems to be stuck, building and maintaining their tech by ritual instead of actual understanding, there is very little innovation.  The Shivans could be the same way, stuck in a loop of ritual instead of actually understanding why their stuff works.

[NGTM-1R]

Zentraedi? They have the weapons, the have the technology. But they don't understand how it works. They can't fix it and they can't make it. It was given to them by their masters, and they know how to operate it effectively, but that's all they know.

[magatsu1]

Originally posted by Pnakotus
Oh, I hear you cry 'Get behind them!'.  So, the Sath will jump out, come back later.  Or maybe, shock, TURN.  Just because the [V] mission designers were idiots (they turned off beams for most ships in Their Finest Hour II, and that was so stupid it burned) doesn't mean Saths can't maneuveur.  *sigh*

[V] didn't do that by accident..

[Hippo]

Agreed

[Blitzerland]

Also, agreed. It was a balancing/gameplay thing. But it did bug me when the Stalwart's beams didn't fire (they also changed all its flak guns to terran turrets).

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by Pnakotus


Makes NO SENSE AT ALL to me.  They lose a single ship... and then utterly whale on poor Colin, destroying the largest threat in less than 10 seconds.  Why run away?  Why not kill every single member of the GTVA?  The Shivans plainly had the ascendancy.  Unless they're complete morons or pussies (like S8472 from ST) they were simply ignoring the GTVA, not running away.  You don't run away when nothing the enemy has can stop you.

Why are you assuming that the Shivans priority was the GTVA?

Originally posted by Liberator


I have a problem with this statement.  I've recently been reading up on Warhammer 40k.  The Space Marines don't have a whole lot of technical knowledge and yet they are the supreme fighting force in the galaxy.  Granted the Machine Cult does a lot of the tech stuff, but the whole Terran Empire seems to be stuck, building and maintaining their tech by ritual instead of actual understanding, there is very little innovation.  The Shivans could be the same way, stuck in a loop of ritual instead of actually understanding why their stuff works.

a) I'm not talking about developing new technology, I'm talking about existing Shivan technology
b) I don't think Warhammer 40k can really be used as an argument, given that AFAIK it's based on an artificial history which is completely divergent from actual history (i.e. magic and ogres and whatnot).  Whereas FS' history is closer to actual history up to the present day.  
(That said, the idea of the Shivans maintaining their existing technology in a ritualistic way, or even being engaged in a holy war for subspace is interesting)

[Gloriano]

Originally posted by aldo_14

Why are you assuming that the Shivans priority was the GTVA?
 

Indeed. GTVA is like small bug in galaxy, and Shivans are far more powerful and far more bigger race and GTVA is not even threat to shivans

[Hippo]

Yes, and as its been said, The Shivans are mearly a simptom of a larger problem...

[Blitzerland]

Yes....yes....over-inflation plagues the Shivans. With the demand for more Sathanas ever-rising, costs raise astronomically.

The GTVA is nothing compared to the evil that is inflation...

[Liberator]

Originally posted by aldo_14


Why are you assuming that the Shivans priority was the GTVA?



a) I'm not talking about developing new technology, I'm talking about existing Shivan technology
b) I don't think Warhammer 40k can really be used as an argument, given that AFAIK it's based on an artificial history which is completely divergent from actual history (i.e. magic and ogres and whatnot).  Whereas FS' history is closer to actual history up to the present day.  
(That said, the idea of the Shivans maintaining their existing technology in a ritualistic way, or even being engaged in a holy war for subspace is interesting)

I was only using W40K as an example of a situation where you have some ultimate badasses who don't have a clue as to how their tools work.  The Zentraedi analogy is also similar.

[CSA-DarthVader]

Most likely, When the sathanas activated there subspace distortion field,(green), This might have reacted with the suns nuclear properties somehow activated a kind of super subspace distortion, this type of distortion might make A kind of wormhole. Linking maybe the star to someplace they might want to go. That is why they could have jumped out. See the star was emenating a field that would inhibit subspace travel, normally it wouldn't. The shivan fleet was making the star change properties to inhibit it. Possibly to channel it into a supersubspace node. Possibly to send them home. THat is why 2 were left . They were probably drones left there to keep the doorway open long enough for the others to jump out. Notice in gameplay that you couldn't jump out unless you were in the actual jumpnode. This was the only place that enough gravitation pull through subspace was not disrupted. Otherwise, outside of the node. you could not lock onto the gravitation field of the node.

[Kie99]

The Shivans have no idea of the size of the GTVA, when the Sath jumped into GTVA Space it had its beams disabled then "Colin" wiped the floor with it! The sHivan's were scared, they had lost there most powerful warship (or 1 of there most powerful anyway, seen as we don't know the size of the Shivan Armada)They had probably never lost such a powerful vessel to an enemy and were on the Hop.

[Kie99]

Originally posted by aldo_14

1/ Of course they know biology - they'd have to be more efficient killers, never mind being able to fuse their own organic parts with cybernetics
2/ You have no way of knowing that, or if they even thought there was a Colossus fleet.  They probably wouldn't have left the nebula if they honestly thought that, having already lost on Sath to the Colossus.
3/Simple - point of greatest bloodflow.  Not to mention that they had more than 1 human to experiment upon.
4/ And your point is?  They know how to ID a terran ship.  Enough said.
5/ No proof of that whatsoever.  As Kara points out, Bosch specifically stated they had established communication.
6/ a) Bosch views his loyal crew as "mindless cattle", along with the rest of the NTF, IIRC
b) Took does not imply force.  It just means they went away on a Shivan vessel, nothing more, nothing less.  Having had to survive a massacre, Rusks' recollection would be somewhat altered.  Bosch also explicitly states his willingness to go with the Shivans, anyway.
c) We don't know who fired first when the Shivans boarded.

1a\ You have no way of knowing the Shivans put the cybernetics on themselves, It could have been a different species
b\ That is Shivan biology, not Human Biology, that's like a vet operating on a person
2\ They wanted to use CApella because it appears to be a bigger star than the Nebula and Gamma Draconis stars
3\ The point of greatest bloodflow is the heart, and the interface would not be like plugging a USB cable in
4\ My point is the Shivans would have seen the Iceni attacking GTVA ships
5\ Bosch specifically stated that the "Communication" was rudimentary and crude, I.E. Bird Call
6\ ...OK you've got me there

[Unknown Target]

I just came to a thought: the Ancients once said that the Shivans were also the "Cosmic preservers".

Perhaps that blowing the system was to keep someone (or something) that could destroy the GTVA out. All the times that the Shivans had attacked the GTVA were more like testing them, sort of like how a pernt would test a child?

[magatsu1]

You do know that idea has been floated, like, a 100 times already right ?

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by kietotheworld


1a\ You have no way of knowing the Shivans put the cybernetics on themselves, It could have been a different species
b\ That is Shivan biology, not Human Biology, that's like a vet operating on a person
2\ They wanted to use CApella because it appears to be a bigger star than the Nebula and Gamma Draconis stars
3\ The point of greatest bloodflow is the heart, and the interface would not be like plugging a USB cable in
4\ My point is the Shivans would have seen the Iceni attacking GTVA ships
5\ Bosch specifically stated that the "Communication" was rudimentary and crude, I.E. Bird Call
6\ ...OK you've got me there

1/a) so?  No way of knowing the converse, and I believe it's more likely that the Shivans created themselves than someone else
b) Or, myabe you mean like a vet who can operate on cats and dogs?
2/ Again, no proof whatsoever.  We don't even know for certain the comparative size of those stars, let alone why the Shivans would pick one/.
3/ Brain - consumes more resources than any other part of the body.  Not to mention that could easily trace activity through the nervous system to the brain.  The Shivans have human test subjects, remember?
4/ My point is that they did not see the Iceni attack GTVA ships in any mission, and not any human ships specifically.  Not only that, there's no record I can remember of in any command briefing that mentions the GTVA encountering the Iceni once (in the nebula in particular).
5/ Bird call is not a communication - communication requires an exchange of information.  Rudimentary and crude refers to a tentative, simplistic exchange, due to differences in language and perception - like a new speaker trying to talk in a foreign language.  Of the level of "Me friend.  You friend?".  

Besides which, if it had been a rudimentary 'bird call', how would Bosch have known that the Shivans were sending transports?

[Zarax]

Let's keep things simple and tell me if that makes sense:

1) Maths == universal communication mean... no matter what you speak, maths can be always understood.
2) Computers: Terrans have them and we can think shivan have something that does more or less the same job.
3) Any computer can emulate another computer, so two computers, if adequately programmed, can "talk" through rudimentary means as pulses...
4) do you remember Bosh had access to shivan tech, right? It's not like he was going there completely blind...