[aldo_14]

The Shivan Ravana, however, managed to destroy multiple ships sent against it.  

Also, when the GTVA first encountered the Sathanas, they didn't assume it was one of a vast fleet - why would the Shivans?

Finally, they almost certainly already knew the strength of the GTVA.  They had, of course, a former high ranked admiral in their custody.

[Solatar]

I think the Terrans assumed the Sathanas was one of a kind merely because they only had one ship of that size. The Shivans, who had a whole fleet of Sathanas class ships, could have easily made the assumption that the Terrans had one too.

[aldo_14]

True, but the Shivans are far more aware of the GTVAs size, military capacity and also the difficulties of developing such a large ship.

(The Terrans assumed they might face more Lucifers, though.  That's why the Colossus was built......yet they didn't anticipate more Sathani)

[Kie99]

Originally posted by Aldo
The Shivan Ravana, however, managed to destroy multiple ships sent against it.

Also, when the GTVA first encountered the Sathanas, they didn't assume it was one of a vast fleet - why would the Shivans?

Finally, they almost certainly already knew the strength of the GTVA. They had, of course, a former high ranked admiral in their custody.

I think its safe too say that Shivans don't speak english so Admiral Bosch couldn't have told them the size of the GTVA, and although the Ravana was a pretty good ship it was destroyed by a bomber wing, and when the Shivans found a terran destroyer in terran territory (Carthage, in Gamma Draconis) they didn't send a Sath after it so they didn't think, "the aliens (GTVA) have sent there best ships to destroyer a puny destroyer, we'll kill 'em all with 3 destroyers!"

[karajorma]

Originally posted by kietotheworld
I think its safe too say that Shivans don't speak english so Admiral Bosch couldn't have told them the size of the GTVA,

Have you completely forgotten what ETAK was for?

[NGTM-1R]

No, he's just remembered it probably wasn't of a portable size.

[TrashMan]

ETAK was left on the Iceni.... But who knows...maby Bosch had a mini-portable version...

[Kie99]

ETAK was for sending signals to the Shivans, not for translation.
It would be just like someone making noise to attract your attention and then you go up to them and they're speaking Japanese*

[edit]

Originally posted by ngtm1r
No, he's just remembered it probably wasn't of a portable size.

Why couldn't it be of a portable size, Laptop hard drives in 200-300 years will probably be about 3 or 4 Terabytes! But ETAK only sent signals to the Shivans, not communicate[/edit]

*If you know Japanese replace Japanese with a language you don't know

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by kietotheworld


I think its safe too say that Shivans don't speak english so Admiral Bosch couldn't have told them the size of the GTVA, and although the Ravana was a pretty good ship it was destroyed by a bomber wing, and when the Shivans found a terran destroyer in terran territory (Carthage, in Gamma Draconis) they didn't send a Sath after it so they didn't think, "the aliens (GTVA) have sent there best ships to destroyer a puny destroyer, we'll kill 'em all with 3 destroyers!"

I think the Shivans are somewhat good at working with technology, don't you?

'sides which, who said they'd speak to him?  Shove an interface device straight into his brain, more like.  Any minor problems can be ironed out beforehand by testing on the other NTF crew & command staff captured.

[Kie99]

they don't necessarily have good scientific technology, just Uber awesome military technology, and even if they had good science they still don't know how the Human Being works so it would take them a good while to work out what is what and how to "Shove an interface straight into his brain" and make the interface decode his memory.

Also the Shivans don't know Bosch used to work with the GTVA because they've only seen him attack the GTVA.

[Blitzerland]

I would have collapsed the Gamma Draconis jump node after destroying the first juggernaut (and evacuating all forces back to Capella, of course).

Common sense.

STUPID COMMAND!!

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by kietotheworld
they don't necessarily have good scientific technology, just Uber awesome military technology, and even if they had good science they still don't know how the Human Being works so it would take them a good while to work out what is what and how to "Shove an interface straight into his brain" and make the interface decode his memory.

Also the Shivans don't know Bosch used to work with the GTVA because they've only seen him attack the GTVA.

1/ they almost certainly do have good scientific tech to develop military tech.  You can't manufacture a fleet of 5km warships without some degree of scientific knowledge
2/ they took more than enough humans from the Iceni to learn biology.
3/ They are most likely familiar with cybernetic technology and thus are well equipped to tailor a neural device to a human brain.. excluding that they don't have nano-technology able to explore and adapt to a host
4/ Shivans are aware of Terran ship specifications and would have recognised the Iceni as being of Terran materials and design.  On the few instances the GTVA encountered the Iceni when the Shivans were present, the Iceni was never attacked - the Colossus' beams failed when it entered the knossos, and the Vasudans weren't able to attack it either
5/ There's no way of knowing what information Bosch transmitted to the Shivans - it could have contained biological information on humans.
6/ Bosch may have been a willing participant in the whole operation.  For all we know, he ordered his own crew killed and believed Shivan cybernetic technology could breed a race of new 'higher' humans, with himself as the first.

[Kie99]

Originally posted by aldo_14


1/ they almost certainly do have good scientific tech to develop military tech.  You can't manufacture a fleet of 5km warships without some degree of scientific knowledge
2/ they took more than enough humans from the Iceni to learn biology.
3/ They are most likely familiar with cybernetic technology and thus are well equipped to tailor a neural device to a human brain.. excluding that they don't have nano-technology able to explore and adapt to a host
4/ Shivans are aware of Terran ship specifications and would have recognised the Iceni as being of Terran materials and design.  On the few instances the GTVA encountered the Iceni when the Shivans were present, the Iceni was never attacked - the Colossus' beams failed when it entered the knossos, and the Vasudans weren't able to attack it either
5/ There's no way of knowing what information Bosch transmitted to the Shivans - it could have contained biological information on humans.
6/ Bosch may have been a willing participant in the whole operation.  For all we know, he ordered his own crew killed and believed Shivan cybernetic technology could breed a race of new 'higher' humans, with himself as the first.

1/ They have good Physics, Chemistry knowledge, but not necessarily good Biology, especially human biology.
2/ It would still take too much time if they thought there was a colossus fleet bearing down on them
3/ They don't know where the human brain is. See Also 2/
4/ They probably have long range sensors which can differentiate between ships
5/ The ETAK device is not a translator as I said before:
ETAK was for sending signals to the Shivans, not for translation.
It would be just like someone making noise to attract your attention and then you go up to them and they're speaking Japanese
6/ I doubt he would order his loyal crew to be slaughtered, and as LT. Rusk said "They took him away with Gibson and Sarno and about a dozen others" that doesn't sound like they went willingly!

[karajorma]

Originally posted by kietotheworld
ETAK was for sending signals to the Shivans, not for translation.
It would be just like someone making noise to attract your attention and then you go up to them and they're speaking Japanese.

Sorry but I just don't buy that.

Our encounter with the Shivans has vindicated all I have fought for these past thirty years. My life's work has been achieved. I have created the technology to enable communication between the Shivans and the human race. Although our first contact was rudimentary and crude, I have initiated the first phase of a new alliance with the destroyers.

That doesn't sound like the shivan equivalent of a bird call to me.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by kietotheworld


1/ They have good Physics, Chemistry knowledge, but not necessarily good Biology, especially human biology.
2/ It would still take too much time if they thought there was a colossus fleet bearing down on them
3/ They don't know where the human brain is. See Also 2/
4/ They probably have long range sensors which can differentiate between ships
5/ The ETAK device is not a translator as I said before:
ETAK was for sending signals to the Shivans, not for translation.
It would be just like someone making noise to attract your attention and then you go up to them and they're speaking Japanese
6/ I doubt he would order his loyal crew to be slaughtered, and as LT. Rusk said "They took him away with Gibson and Sarno and about a dozen others" that doesn't sound like they went willingly!

1/ Of course they know biology - they'd have to be more efficient killers, never mind being able to fuse their own organic parts with cybernetics
2/ You have no way of knowing that, or if they even though there was a Colossus fleet.  They probably wouldn't have left the nebula if they honestly though that, having already lost on Sath to the Colossus.
3/Simple - point of greatest bloodflow.  Not to mention that they had more than 1 human to experiment upon.
4/ And your point is?  They know how to ID a terran ship.  Enough said.
5/ No proof of that whatsoever.  As Kara points out, Bosch specifically stated they had established communication.
6/ a) Bosch views his loyal crew as "mindless cattle", along with the rest of the NTF, IIRC
b) Took does not imply force.  It just means they went away on a Shivan vessel, nothing more, nothing less.  Having had to survive a massacre, Rusks' recollection would be somewhat altered.  Bosch also explicitly states his willingness to go with the Shivans, anyway.
c) We don't know who fired first when the Shivans boarded.

[NGTM-1R]

Shivans are fairly scary-looking folks, and I don't find it entirely out of the question that an Iceni crewer panicked and shot at them.
The Iceni crew were not cattle to Bosch. This was his ship, his crew. Commanders feel a certain attachment to such things, particularly when they've commanded them in combat for some time, as Bosch has with the Iceni. One gets an impression that the Iceni crew was hand-picked by Bosch.
I think it was a colossal miscommunication. Panicked crewer fires on Shivan, Shivans assume all Terrans aboard Iceni they cannot identify from the ETAK transmissions are hostile and treat them accordingly.
ETAK was meant to transmit Shivan comm messages. How the Shivans communicate in person isn't totally clear, so it's quite possible they couldn't talk to Bosch. As to cybernetics: Bosch thinks in English. Shivans think in Shivan. Do we see a problem here...?
On the other hand, it seems awfully unlikely Bosch would plan to go with the Shivans unless he had figured out a way to talk to them so they'd understand, in person.

[aldo_14]

How the Shivans communicate in person isn't totally clear, so it's quite possible they couldn't talk to Bosch. As to cybernetics: Bosch thinks in English. Shivans think in Shivan. Do we see a problem here...?
 

No problem atall.  Memories aren't stored in any particular language in the brain, it all resolves down to a basic structure of neurons, etc.

[NGTM-1R]

To understand someone's thinking, you must understand the terms they think in, I would imagine. Basically, thoughts come down to imagery, and the Shivans, being about as different as it gets from Humans, use drastically different imagery. It's not quite as simple plug-and-play. You have to account for the differing pyschology, not just physiology, to make sense of his thinking.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by ngtm1r
To understand someone's thinking, you must understand the terms they think in, I would imagine. Basically, thoughts come down to imagery, and the Shivans, being about as different as it gets from Humans, use drastically different imagery. It's not quite as simple plug-and-play. You have to account for the differing pyschology, not just physiology, to make sense of his thinking.

If the Shivans are as advanced as they appear to be, that shouldn't be a problem to them.  For example, use nanotechnology that is able to learn as it moves through the brain, possibly using external stimuli to test how the brain operates.

[Pnakotus]

Originally posted by kietotheworld


Makes sense to me

Makes NO SENSE AT ALL to me.  They lose a single ship... and then utterly whale on poor Colin, destroying the largest threat in less than 10 seconds.  Why run away?  Why not kill every single member of the GTVA?  The Shivans plainly had the ascendancy.  Unless they're complete morons or pussies (like S8472 from ST) they were simply ignoring the GTVA, not running away.  You don't run away when nothing the enemy has can stop you.

Frankly, you could make a case that a sensibly-captained *single* Sath could destroy the GTVA with a bit of subspace hopping.  What are they going to do?  Build another Colossus?  Lose destroyers by the truckload to the forward beams?  Oh, I hear you cry 'Get behind them!'.  So, the Sath will jump out, come back later.  Or maybe, shock, TURN.  Just because the [V] mission designers were idiots (they turned off beams for most ships in Their Finest Hour II, and that was so stupid it burned) doesn't mean Saths can't maneuveur.  *sigh*