[Flipside]

Well, I suppose it's kind of like these people that have predicted the future by turning the Bible into a gigantic game of Boggle, it seems a bit silly to me

[Vinco]

WeatherOp, religion is not required for happiness.  I for one am far happier with myself and my life since I distanced myself from the organized practice of religion.  I feel no Void within myself, nor do I suffer for lack of a purpose in life.  I have no idea whatsoever what will happen to my consciousness upon death.  I also feel no need to cling to the idea of an afterlife to make me sleep at night.  When I die, I shall proceed to the next phase of existance, even if that phase is nothing more than the recycling of my component atoms into new life and new creations.  I am happy with my life as it stands, and I feel no need for external justification of my existance.

I can't speak for everyone, but I do not understand the reason why you feel that those without religion are somehow lessened by its absence.

[Flipside]

You know, I'm still waiting for you to say 'The ability to leap beyond what he can see and reach conclusions from it' as a defining feature of man, in fact, our abilitiy to believe in God, something which we cannot touch, taste or smell is something that appears unique to mankind

But it is that same gift which created our ability to to believe in God that allows us to remain unsatisfied that this is the only answer we could need

[Kamikaze]

An argument brought up earlier interested me. The argument that if there's the possibility or an almighty deity existing, it's better to believe in the deity than to stay skeptical. That's an okay argument if it were a binary world, that is "Deity" or "No Deity", but the world is far more complicated than that.

Not only is there more than one deity to believe in, there're lots of variations on each deity and even variations on how to appease said deity (within the same religion too).  There're even various mixes of religion and non-religious belief  (e.g. those who believe there is a Christian God, yet believe in evolution).

So with all these different beliefs and differing supposed consequences if you don't believe, what's the best way to choose?

[Flipside]

Personally, I'll wait until it's over and see who comes out of the woodwork, as it were

If I tried to follow every major religion I'd be alternately starving myself, feasting, earning nothing, of which I'd give 20% to the church, and the rest to the poor......

[Taristin]

Can someone explain to me a few things about the Catholic faith (which I was brought up in, and still hardly understand)?

This Devil, satan, the beast... What is he? Is he a god too? How can there be an almighty God, the only god, and have a devil that is equally powerful. Powerful enough as to constantly be at war with god and never having either side come out truly victorious?

If god is all loving, all caring, and all knowing...why is there a Hell? Why would god not forgive his creations for their straying?  Especially since he would already know that they would stray from the moment of conception?

[Grey Wolf]

Let's see....
At least from what I've seen, in the modern Roman Catholic faith, the devil and Hell don not seem to be mentioned much. In fact, Revelations, which probably contains the largest number of references to these, itself is basically ignored, with it being brought up only periodically, and then only interpreted as a parable.

[Ford Prefect]

I envy people who can be entirely comfortable with the absence of a god. When I look at the world and see an existence governed by random chance, populated by people who aren't even aware of how much they're slaves to their instincts, I tend to alternate between absurd euphoria and depression.

[Stealth]

Originally posted by Raa
Can someone explain to me a few things about the Catholic faith (which I was brought up in, and still hardly understand)?

This Devil, satan, the beast... What is he? Is he a god too? How can there be an almighty God, the only god, and have a devil that is equally powerful. Powerful enough as to constantly be at war with god and never having either side come out truly victorious?

If god is all loving, all caring, and all knowing...why is there a Hell? Why would god not forgive his creations for their straying?  Especially since he would already know that they would stray from the moment of conception?

i'm not Catholic, but as far as i know:  the devil is an angel that turned against God, god knows how long ago, and with his side-kicks (other fallen angels), ummm... i don't know what the Catholics think the devil's and his demons' purpose is.

Well some religions don't believe in hell (for the very reason you gave).  I can think of one offhand.  no, two.

[Stealth]

Originally posted by Ghostavo
I don't know if I should laugh or be appalled by that statement...

how about showing a little bit of god damn respect. even though what he believes contradicts what you believe, it's common courtesy, not to mock someone for what you think is absurd, since they obviously see it in a different light.  respect his opinions, don't laugh at them.

[Mongoose]

Raa/others, basically, as Stealth said, according to Christian tradition, Satan is a fallen angel.  He is not equally powerful to God; in fact, he is doomed to be destroyed at the end of time.  It's kind of hard to explain about such matters, or even to put them into words, since a lot of it is more tradition than actual dogma.   Suffice it to say that the Devil is the representation of the evil that is present in the world, and this evil will be finally defeated at the end of time.  Also, regarding victories over evil, Christ's death and resurrection represents a great victory, since he conquered death and opened the way to eternal life.

As for the whole existence of Hell, according to Catholic teaching (and to most people in general, but that's beside the point) all human beings have free will.  We are given the free choice to act for good or evil.  Being good people brings us closer to God, while committing evil thoughts/actions turns us away.  Either way, the choice is ours to make.  Yes, God is all-forgiving, but we have to actually want forgiveness.  Hell exists for those who have truly turned away from God, who are non-repentant.  It is true that God is omniscient, but he still gives us the choice to follow him or not.  Otherwise, we would be nothing more than slaves.  In the Catholic view, humanity represents the pinnacle of creation and was made "in the image and likeness of God."  We are not God's slaves; we are his children.  Just as any parent must allow their children to learn from their own mistakes and to live out their lives, so God does with us.

Grey Wolf, I don't know where you've been looking, but Hell at least is mentioned a great deal in the modern Catholic faith.  As for the Devil, try not to think of the horned, pitchfork-carrying, pointy-tailed Halloween representation.  The Devil, instead of really being a certain persona, is the image of the temptation that we all face, the part of us that wants to turn away from God.  As for Revelation, I think that a lot of people could look at it and believe that it's not supposed to literally portray the end of time.  I believe, and the Catholic Church teaches, that it is an allegory or parable to the end of the world.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by WeatherOp
Ok, lets just say that I am wron, ok acording to evolusion thats the end, But if your wrong you are fighting against a Allmighty God.

Who is supposedly benevolent.  So I'm not worried about it either way

I don't think the existence or non-existence of God matters, or has any impact on how i should live my life.  I think that all I have to do is be what I judge to be a 'good' person (which principally consists of not being a dickhead), and this whole issue will be settled when I pop me clogs.  

Call that aetheism or agnosticism (or a cop out...), but that's how I feel - that it doesn't matter either way, because I would rather judge myself as a person than rely on some proxy. And I'm happy with that.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by Vinco
I'd like to pose a question to the entire group.  I've been considering this issue for years, and am still stuck at an impass.
_______________________________________
Given:
There is a single God
God is omnipotent
God is omniscient
Humans were created by God
Humans were given Free Will by God
_______________________________________
How does one explain the concept of free will?
Operating within only the "givens" above, and my understanding of their interpretation, I have reached an apparent contradiction.  An omniscient God would, by definition, know the fate of any particle in the universe even before its creation.  An omnipotent God would have the power to create anything, and when combined with the omniscience, would be unable to make mistakes.  

When the fate of the universe is known even before the instant of creation, how can choices truly exist?

I'd like to add three more conjectures based upon my knowledge of Catholic teachings.
___________________________________
Conjectured:
God is "good"
Eternal suffering is "bad"
"good" and "bad" are opposing fates, and are in fact opposites.
___________________________________

As explained above, this God has the power to create the universe and everything within it.  This God knows the ultimate fate of Its creation.  *I interpret Free Will as the ability to Choose between a path that will lead either towards or away from eternal suffering.* When the conjecture of a "good" God being opposed to eternal suffering is added into the picture, then the concept of Man having Free Will and being able to Choose "bad" becomes somewhat confusing.  How can a "good" God create beings that It knows will Choose a path that will lead to eternal suffering?  If this God did not create the being knowing that it would Choose eternal suffering, then how can the givens of Omnipotence and Omniscience hold?

Does this confuse anyone else, or is it just me?

edit: added my interpretation of Free Will (within stars)

My understanding is, that most (all?) religions have some form of promised land post-death; be it via reincarnation or a heaven type scenario.  And that said diety gave humanity free will in order to prove itself worthy of that, by being good.  

And , of course, it's a common mythological thread, said choice; Adam & Eve, Pandora's box, etc... probably reflect this issue, so it's one that has been around since the beginning of religion (hence, I guess, why all religions tend to have some form of contradictory 'evil' diety or multiple Gods with different purposes.... I don't know, I'm no theologan)

I don't particularly like that idea (test), anyways.  It smacks to me of a 'trickster' God, running a great big game over eternity. And if you apply this 'test' as a central tenet of religion, then (I think) you find that what is 'Gods will', in terms of the moral statues you have to follow, is simply an extension of what is best for society; i.e. the needs of a group, written down as religion to better enforce them.

So I don't think it makes all that much sense either.  Of course, the converse argument is that most religion demands unconditional belief and they could thus argue its (relgion,  the world relating to it)  not meant to make sense anyways.

[Ghostavo]

Originally posted by Stealth
how about showing a little bit of god damn respect. even though what he believes contradicts what you believe, it's common courtesy, not to mock someone for what you think is absurd, since they obviously see it in a different light.  respect his opinions, don't laugh at them.

Well, excuse me for reading this:

Originally posted by WeatherOp
Because the Bible's prophies are coming true. The reason I know is cause it is in my heart and in the Bible. See I don't have the Void that some people have and there isn't something missing in side of me. I wake up each morning happy and have very few bad days. God is real in my heart, and wether you belive it is up to you, but I am done with this thread, I have said what I think needed to be said. But, I know for sure if I die where I wake up. How sure are you guys?

First he tells us that the bible's prophecies were coming true without giving any facts to it but instead saying that it is in his heart and bible. Then he judges some people, who I assume he is mentioning agnostics, etc... even though his religion (from what I understood) says only god can judge people. Then he says something I'm still not sure I understand where he is trying to get at.

But, I know for sure if I die where I wake up. How sure are you guys?

Now imagine yourself in my place, reading this. Would you try not to laugh at the first part of his statement about the absence of facts or feel strangely directed in his judgement? How would you react?

[vyper]

He should prove the theory...

[Flipside]

Don't be horrid It's his choice what he believes, and it's our choice whether we believe him. We argue things as though it were a court of law, where 'evidence' and 'reasonable doubt' come into play. But religion is based on leaping beyond what you can see, in that respect it, and science actually share a common root.

We need to accept that without religion, science would never have been born, since had not these things impressed and awed us into attributing them to supernatural forces, we would never have looked further.

Religion has a place, but as a dictate for self, not a dictate for masses, at least in my opinion

[Grey Wolf]

Originally posted by Mongoose
Grey Wolf, I don't know where you've been looking, but Hell at least is mentioned a great deal in the modern Catholic faith.  As for the Devil, try not to think of the horned, pitchfork-carrying, pointy-tailed Halloween representation.  The Devil, instead of really being a certain persona, is the image of the temptation that we all face, the part of us that wants to turn away from God.  As for Revelation, I think that a lot of people could look at it and believe that it's not supposed to literally portray the end of time.  I believe, and the Catholic Church teaches, that it is an allegory or parable to the end of the world.

Let's see... Total times the Devil and Hell were mentioned during mass this morning: 0. Doesn't seem to be that big of an emphasis to me....

[Ford Prefect]

And that, Flipside, is precisely the problem. Fundamentalist interpretations of religion always seem to lead people to the conclusion that they must externalize their beliefs and reshape society according to them. They become consumed by the assumption that their notions of society are the correct ones and they use an arbitrary interpretation of god to justify it. And yet it's not arbitrary to them, which is the most frustrating part. It's as though I believed that we were all meant to obey trees and that society is morally bankrupt because we no longer listen to the mandate of the trees. Who can ever prove me wrong? If I've made up my mind that this is something beyond the realm of science, than it's also beyond contention. Anything that I want to be true can be true. It's a cheap way out of being backed into the corner that I'm grotesquely naive.

[Stealth]

Originally posted by Ghostavo


Well, excuse me for reading this:

i don't care.  it's his beliefs, and mocking him for them isn't mature.  besides, it's not like it's something he pulled out of his ass... believe it or not many, many people on this world believe exactly what he posted...

but anyway, you're excused.  just don't let it happen again.

[an0n]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the entire Bible just a way of placating the heathens after they were conquered during the Crusades?

Originally, the bible has no such concepts as Angels and the war in heaven, but these little scenarios were dreampt up to keep the heathens and their ingrained belief in polytheism from becoming a problem after they were subjugated and forced to worship another fictional character in the story of the universe.

So everything you hear about people being corrupted by Satan is basically bull****, even by the rules of the official Bible (not one of these mormonesque 'reworkings').

So basically, there's God - and he hates everyone. He turns people into pillars of salt, rains fire and brimstone on cities and manifests himself on the Earthly plane to get some pussy occassionally. He smites people whom he arbitrarily decides are evil and anyone who happens to think contrary to him.

And then there's nothing.

You either side with God, or you get nuthin'. No eternal torment, no suffering in the fires of the not-so-great beyond. You're gone. Poof.

Then Jesus came along and basically said "God's not so bad" completely contradicting a thousand years of God ****ing people up. People flocked to this idea of "Do what the **** you like, then beg forgiveness on your death bed". Now, to me, that seems more like something a great corrupting force like the as-yet-unconcieved Satan would say. Primarily, because this equates to "Sin and rely on the forgiveness of God" and pretty much ignores the aforementioned thousand years of burning cities, salty people and people being ****ed up for minor infractions.

But somewhere along the way, the religiously enlightened began to realise that your average peasant wasn't smart enough to fear the void because they lacked the capacity to comprehend it, and would get itchy if they couldn't be shown God actively ****ing over the wicked, so they sat and they said "Gee, we need something they can really fear, not this pseudo-metaphysical concept of non-sentience. What does everyone hate?" and decided that all those who rebelled against God would be burned, because nobody likes fire. And they could be all showy when killing heathens and boat-rockers.

Thus is the story of Christianity!