Author Topic: Religion linked with antisocial behavior?  (Read 25380 times)

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Offline Janos

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Re: Religion linked with antisocial behavior?
Are we talking about religion, or the people who use it as a method to inspire/control others, though?

Religion is nothing but a bunch of people believieng in a common set of dogmas. As such, people can guide and transform the religion to a greater extent than the religion can guide them. Modern christianity is so far from OT christianity that it does not, strictly speaking, constitute as the same religion at all. All those changes were made by people.

This of course works only in long term. On short term it is much easier to separate people from religion.
lol wtf

 

Offline Wobble73

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Re: Religion linked with antisocial behavior?
Religion is arrogance, at least those that claim Man was created in God's image and that God actually cares about us are. Fact is, in this huge Universe, the chance that it was all made for us is vanishingly small. We are not important. Deal with it.

TBH, I was going to say 'is this news?' about that article (in fact, I just have), but being ever wary of statistics, I thought a little more about it.

Is it not more probable that religion is merely a symptom of an underlying factor? Actually ,the argument could be turned right around: could we be drawing the opposite conclusion from the statistics? Maybe religion is the result of these social factors?

My distrust of statistics applied to something as nebulous as 'society' is almost as great as, if not equal to, my distrust of faith.

I agree, it's possible that these countries are more religious because of their social ills and not that their social ills are caused by religion!! Have you thought about that! People are living in poverty, in a violent society. People are suffering therefore wouldn't it make sense that these people would be more likely to seek out religion as a form of comfort. Most religions tell us that everything will be alright in the end, that there is life after death or we will be reborn in some way. For someone who is living in a cruel harsh world, they would want to believe more than those who live in a more comfortable environment, wouldn't they?
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Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: Religion linked with antisocial behavior?
My opinion of religions: I couldn't really care less what individual people thought in their little heads about life, universe and all. I have my own thoughts regarding them. So I don't really care if someone is religious, no. It's the effects of religiousness that other people have to cope with that piss me off time to time.

Specifically, every time someone tries to apply their personal moral beliefs (usually based on religious opinions) to other people - based solely on their religious viewpoint, they stop making their religion their own thing.

Sure, a die-hard religious fanatic is free to think that everyone who doesn't think like he/she will go to hell. But I don't think that opinion gives them right to speeding up the process, if you get my meaning. :nervous: Usually, religious people don't manifest themsleves this extremely (of course). The effects are more subtle and more numerous, and more annoying even. People that say their moral beliefs are the correct ones because a divine being announced to them are free to believe so, but unfortunately they often think other people should act according to those same moral beliefs, and when people don't the are so upset and shocked that it's almost ridiculous. And when they start to try and force their moral beliefs into legislation, it gets too far.

The point is that I think having a valid moral set of beliefs doesn't require someone telling you how to think, or how to act. It does, however, require ability to empathy, and some common sense. From these two assets, one can build their own, perfectly valid moral stances. And people should do this more often, but they usually don't because it's often easier when someone feeds you the opinions when you're a child...

Don't get me wrong. For example, Christianity has a validly justified moral stance - after all, it's just the categorical imperative. The thing is, that christians (should) believe that you should do to your neighbour as you'd like to be done to yourself, but Kant individually came to this conclusion and gave philosophical reasons for his imperative, which is essentially the same thing that is the core of christianity. Most problems with christians stem from the fact that some of them think all that Jesus said (or has been calimed to say!) should be applied as law-like rules in everyday life.

I don't know if any of you can tell heads or tails from this writing. Well, whatever. :p
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Offline Kazan

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Re: Religion linked with antisocial behavior?

I agree, it's possible that these countries are more religious because of their social ills and not that their social ills are caused by religion!! Have you thought about that! People are living in poverty, in a violent society. People are suffering therefore wouldn't it make sense that these people would be more likely to seek out religion as a form of comfort. Most religions tell us that everything will be alright in the end, that there is life after death or we will be reborn in some way. For someone who is living in a cruel harsh world, they would want to believe more than those who live in a more comfortable environment, wouldn't they?

we've thought of it.. but you don't see that association
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Offline Fineus

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Re: Religion linked with antisocial behavior?
Quote
Religion linked with antisocial behavior?


Somehow I feel it should really read:

Quote
Religion linked with genocide?

 

Offline redmenace

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Re: Religion linked with antisocial behavior?
If religion makes you anti-social, Kazan, what is your excuse? :P
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Offline aldo_14

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Re: Religion linked with antisocial behavior?
uh oh

(behave yourself!)

 

Offline Ghostavo

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Re: Religion linked with antisocial behavior?
And when you stare too long into the abyss, the abyss stares back into you.
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Offline Kazan

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Re: Religion linked with antisocial behavior?
ich liebe nietzsche :D
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Offline Goober5000

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Re: Religion linked with antisocial behavior?
Somehow I feel it should really read:

Quote
Religion linked with genocide?

O RLY?

Tell that to Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Khan, the American Indians, and the victims of the massacres in the Congo, Rwanda, and the Sudan.  Oh, and the Roman Empire.

  

Offline Kazan

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Re: Religion linked with antisocial behavior?

O RLY?

Tell that to Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Khan, the American Indians, and the victims of the massacres in the Congo, Rwanda, and the Sudan.  Oh, and the Roman Empire.

Hitler: christian, encouraged his generals to go to church - killed jews
Stalin/Mao: he never said it was the only cause- these guys killed for power
Khan: I don't remember him killing off the entire population of the areas had conquered.. that would have been counter productive
American Indians: victims of arrogant christians who thought the world belonged to them
Sudan: Christians vs Muslims
Rwanda: arbitrarily created ethnic group A vs arbitrarily created ethnic group B
Congo: not familiar enough to comment
Roman Empire: anyone not roman, including not of their religion, target for conquering - but they didn't kill off everyone they conquered, just the combatants they had to
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Offline Mefustae

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Re: Religion linked with antisocial behavior?
Okay, now i'm confused as to who is trying to make what point...

 

Offline Goober5000

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Re: Religion linked with antisocial behavior?
Sudan: Christians vs Muslims

Granted.  Strike that from the list of examples then.  As for your other defenses:

Quote
Hitler: christian, encouraged his generals to go to church - killed jews

Hitler wasn't Christian.  He recognized the value of the church as a leadership institution, but he tried to turn it into a Nazi propaganda machine.  He himself was an occultist.  Besides, he tried to rewrite the Bible.

Anyway, he was doing an ethnic cleansing, not a religious cleansing.  Maintaining the purity of the German race was a political philosophy, not a religious one.

Quote
American Indians: victims of arrogant christians who thought the world belonged to them

Economics.  The Indians owned land that the settlers wanted.  End of story.

So, you see, none of the genocides in this list (Sudan excepted) were in any way due to religion.  And these were some pretty big ones, and I just rattled them off the top of my head.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2006, 11:38:01 am by Goober5000 »

 

Offline Kazan

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Re: Religion linked with antisocial behavior?

O RLY?

Tell that to Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Khan, the American Indians, and the victims of the massacres in the Congo, Rwanda, and the Sudan.  Oh, and the Roman Empire.

Hitler: christian, encouraged his generals to go to church - killed jews
Stalin/Mao: he never said it was the only cause- these guys killed for power
Khan: I don't remember him killing off the entire population of the areas had conquered.. that would have been counter productive
American Indians: victims of arrogant christians who thought the world belonged to them
Sudan: Christians vs Muslims
Rwanda: arbitrarily created ethnic group A vs arbitrarily created ethnic group B
Congo: not familiar enough to comment
Roman Empire: anyone not roman, including not of their religion, target for conquering - but they didn't kill off everyone they conquered, just the combatants they had to

So, you see, none of the genocides in this list (Sudan excepted) were in any way due to religion.  And these were some pretty big ones, and I just rattled them off the top of my head.

horse****

hitler: religious
Stalin/Mao: massacres, but not genocides (killed political enemies)
Khan: not genocide (only killed soldiers in battle AFAIK)
Congo: not familiar with situation to comment
Rwanda: genocide, not religious (wewt you got one... no where did ANYONE say religion was the only cause)
Sudan: religious genocide
Roman Empire: see Khan
United States: Genocide, economic in goals, religious in justification

Let's add the biggest single one you forgot

The Crusades: Religious Genocide

how about other conflicts the church has started?

The Inquisition
the religous wars in the Holy Roman Empire (modern Germany/Poland/Austria, etc)
....


no.. there is no defending religion - "see see! X did it too!" doesn't work.. especially when you point out "X did this" in instances were X didn't do that
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Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: Religion linked with antisocial behavior?
Congo used to be the private country belonging entirely to king Leopold II of Belgium, who was the founder of "Congo Free State".

Congo Free State was solely meant to increase Leopold's personal property, as the land *belonged* to him personally. The para rubber tree plantations and ivory were the main goods delivered from there. Leopold's Congo is infamous of the treating of local poplation. They were quite ruthlessly enslaved and forced to work at forementioned plantations in miserable conditons.

Death tolls estimate in millions. The population was kept under control by mass murders and other atrocities. More very fun reading found in wikipedia article of Congo Free State.


I would still say that most genocides and, should we say, violent endeavours in the history of human have originally been motivated by greed and in some occasions, expansionism, which is after all only one form of greed (more land needed to maintain the economical growth, like in Rome). Of course colonization was the culmination of this behaviour.

Many leaders have used religion and help from religious authorities to help controlling the masses and giving superficial justification for their actions. For example the conquistadors were *supposed* to convert pagans into christianity, but mostly they were there to gain profit, for themselves and to their countries (Spain and Portugal, at this stage). Later on, Great Britain joined the club, partially because colonization was as good economically as it was bad morally, and partially because not entering the colonization process would've handed the world to two other super states of the time... but that's all getting a little distracted.

Shortly - in most cases, religion has been only superficial motive, and the actual driving force behind the atrocicers (is that a word?) has been personal advantage.

Even the crusades fall into this category, if you look deep enough. The crusaders consisted partially of criminals and vandals who "earned salvation" - ie. avoided conviction/execution - by joining the Armies of Light against the heretics, and partially of warriors who had no wars to fight.

The reasons for why the catholic church organized the crusades in the first place was mainly this: The Europe was full of people with warrior origins and culture (vikings, magyars and slavonic tribes, to mention some) who had invaded the lands... after the Roman Empire was divided and the Western part was screwed... Now, these people with warrior culture didn't have much to do, so they mainly caused havoc and destruction around different areas of Europe. The church had very little luck in trying to stop these violences.

So, when that the Byzantine emperor asked military help from the catholic church, they were more than happy and able to get rid of those ravaging barbarians and send them away to distant lands. Then it became an institution, and institutions don't need reasons.
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Offline Goober5000

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Re: Religion linked with antisocial behavior?
horse****

A witty retort.  And then you proceed to repeat exactly what you said in the previous post, as if by repeating it often enough you cause it to be true.  You might be able to convince yourself or others, but you can't change facts.

Quote
Let's add the biggest single one you forgot

The Crusades: Religious Genocide

Far outweighed by everything else.

Quote
The Inquisition

Same here.  The Inquisition killed only about 2500 people over the course of 400 years, making it one of the least effective massacres in history.

Quote
the religous wars in the Holy Roman Empire (modern Germany/Poland/Austria, etc)

Those were wars about economics, politics, and territory, not religion.

Quote
no.. there is no defending religion - "see see! X did it too!" doesn't work.. especially when you point out "X did this" in instances were X didn't do that

:wtf: are you talking about?  Come back when you can sound coherent.

Shortly - in most cases, religion has been only superficial motive, and the actual driving force behind the atrocicers (is that a word?) has been personal advantage.

:nod: In a nutshell.  There's a big difference between religious motivation and religious rationalization.

 

Offline Kazan

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Re: Religion linked with antisocial behavior?

A witty retort.  And then you proceed to repeat exactly what you said in the previous post, as if by repeating it often enough you cause it to be true.  You might be able to convince yourself or others, but you can't change facts.

try reading my posts before replying then and I won't have to repeat myself! if I correct you, and your turn around and spew the same bull**** at me again, then I'm going to repeat myself


Quote
Let's add the biggest single one you forgot

The Crusades: Religious Genocide

Far outweighed by everything else.

in total death count, perhaps - but it's yet another example of religious violence - the highest deathcount comes up under the holocaust, and contrary to your evasive assertion, that WAS religious - jewishness is BOTH an ethnicity and a religiousity and both were persecuted

Quote
The Inquisition

Same here.  The Inquisition killed only about 2500 people over the course of 400 years, making it one of the least effective massacres in history.

in terms of deathcount? yes it was ineffective
in terms of retarding the scientific and cultural development of our species? one of the most effective

Quote
the religous wars in the Holy Roman Empire (modern Germany/Poland/Austria, etc)

Those were wars about economics, politics, and territory, not religion.

wow, take a history class.  just because they had BOTH religious and economic/political/territorial wars doesn't mean the wholly religious ones didn't happen


Quote
no.. there is no defending religion - "see see! X did it too!" doesn't work.. especially when you point out "X did this" in instances were X didn't do that

:wtf: are you talking about?  Come back when you can sound coherent.

Kalfireth said "religion causes genocide" - demonstrably true
you attempt to say "no it doesn't! like at these supposed and real genocides that I assert are not religious! that means you're wrong".

No... it means that religion isn't the ONLY cause - so in effect you are "look! look! they did it too!"


Shortly - in most cases, religion has been only superficial motive, and the actual driving force behind the atrocicers (is that a word?) has been personal advantage.

:nod: In a nutshell.  There's a big difference between religious motivation and religious rationalization.
[/quote]

not as far as I'm concerned there isn't.  Religious motiviation, religious rationalization - same thing - using religion to perpetrate genocide



let's not even mention where god orders the israelites to commit genocide.
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Offline Kazan

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Re: Religion linked with antisocial behavior?
If religion makes you anti-social, Kazan, what is your excuse? :P

i'm always pissed BECAUSE of religion encroaching on my freedoms, my bodily security, and my country  :cool:
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Offline Mars

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Re: Religion linked with antisocial behavior?
Kazan, I don't want to start a flame war, and I know I'm just a random n00b. I just want to know... do you like arguing constantly? You post controversial articles that agree with your opinion, and start a discussion, even though you are entirely convinced of the answer and you refuse to hear the other side at all... there's no point in it. 

:sigh:

Okay I'm done

*steps off soap box*

 

Offline Kazan

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Re: Religion linked with antisocial behavior?
I just want to know... do you like arguing constantly?

no more than I like having my freedom threatened every day by the religious zealots of this country, no more than I like the fact that 2/3rds of the nerves of my wang have been whacked off by a medical proceedure that has been perpetuated by falsified data and started by religious fanatics.

i'm just inherently combative with idiots

You post controversial articles that agree with your opinion

controversial as in "causes arguments" or as in "dubious scientific results"? because the former, yup, the latter, not so much


, and start a discussion, even though you are entirely convinced of the answer and you refuse to hear the other side at all... there's no point in it. 

if the other side were to actually come up with something original and valid then I would listen to it
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