Author Topic: GTB Artemis  (Read 80264 times)

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Offline General Battuta

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I would rather have Aardwolf back, so please don't do that.

 

Offline Sab0o

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Including the glass and cockpit men, it currently comes to 16070 tris. It's much easier having to deal with too many than too few though. I'm not going to worry about it too much until it's 'ready.'

Thanks for all the comments.

Hmm. Something for you to chew on:
Wow, you really don't like my polycount huh. I might just have to do it now you said it.

 

Offline Kolgena

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NOooo what have i done

 

Offline sigtau

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Alright, I'm rather tired of people who keep saying that polycount matters as much as it does.  I know you're all going to think my opinion is absurd, but please hear me out.

There are several factors at work that inhibit performance in FSO:

1. The rendering engine itself.
2. Texture size and resolution.
3. And very last, polygon count.

What many people fail to understand is that your computer's GPU processes mesh data as a linked list of vertexes, not triangles.  Using this, one could also say that vertex count actually matters far more than polygon count does, though because of the widely-accepted misconception that polygon count is a measure of performance, it's best to stick to it (because of the widespread use).

What actually matters about performance is the model's texture quality.  Graphics cards have maximum texture resolutions for a reason (as well as a finite amount of VRAM to store these textures in--a list of numbers such as vertexes doesn't have as much of an overhead).  Higher texture filesize (less compression), combined with high resolution leads to a higher impact on performance.  The Hatsheput and the Cain/Lilith HTLs found in the Media VPs are good examples of these--the performance impact of having these ships in-game comes from the high resolution (and possibly filesize) of the textures.  Normal maps count as textures too, as well as specularity maps (if any).

Polygon count has very little if anything to do with performance.  Vertex count perhaps, but polygon count... not so much.

Aside from that, FSO's rendering engine isn't the greatest in the world; it has bottlenecks and performance problems that other engines do not.
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Offline Kolgena

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I thought lots of details were going to be baked to normals anyways. At least, that's what the creator had said before he started.

I'm guessing that nowadays, FSO cares about poly-count even less, since it switched from a per-vertex lighting shader to a per-pixel lighting shader.

 

Offline Sab0o

  • 26
Yeah, I planned to do all the details with normal maps at first, but then i realized my polycount was way below every other mVP ship in it's class, so i figured I might as well get gratuitus with the polys. I can still do normal maps if needed.

Dunno if it's worth continuing with this Lol. Oh and I upgraded the goofy looking engine.

edit: Nah, no point. Interesting though. May do some deeper parts, but nothing so extreme.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2011, 10:28:22 pm by Sab0o »

 

Offline bkd86

  • 25
If you are going to use up your poly budget, please use it to fix up the tails, that is more important than all those tiny details that won't be seen 99% of the time.

 

Offline Archaic

  • 26
indeed, dont add polys just for polycount. IF you can go low ploycount, then do so.

 

Offline Zacam

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I thought lots of details were going to be baked to normals anyways. At least, that's what the creator had said before he started.

I'm guessing that nowadays, FSO cares about poly-count even less, since it switched from a per-vertex lighting shader to a per-pixel lighting shader.

That would be FSU, not FSO. I'm sure there are still plenty of engine limitations. And we don't encourage being wasteful of polygons, wether there is a reason for it or not. And yes, there is a lot of detailing that can be done rather well with a finely made normal map. But no normal map that the engine uses can make up for actual TRUE depth at the moment, especially when it come to lighting interaction. Having a genuinely recessed panel lighting wise (whether you are using pre-pixel or per-vertex lighting) will always look better than a panel that only "appears" to be recessed by a normal map, because at some angles or proximity, it is STILL a flat surface and there is nothing that can be done about it except for using higher OpenGL functions and geometry modification shaders, which require materials systems and which won't be available to anything that can't handle OpenGL 3.x/4.x or just doesn't have the grunt to pull it off.

So, while poly count (as triangles, quads, wetrs, normals whatever) _is_ still an important factor, it is NOT as rigid a constraint as some people tend to think of it as being. If you can do more with less, PERFECT. How the edges and faces are optimized and aligned when created is very important. But more importantly that that, is how well it is laid out texturing wise to achieve the best possible maximum result with the lowest possible resolution or number of maps to preserve and present clean and recognizable detail.

The important factor about meshes and how many polygons are present in it comes in the form of collision detection and interaction. And frankly, you can have a 2k malformed screwed up model (however GREAT it may look mapping wise) bring the system to a crawl and a well made and properly organized and optimized 20k mesh won't cause so much as a stutter.

And yes, polycount will be a factor for performance. Obviously, the Retail Colossus is going to be less intensive on a system than the High Poly Colossus, just in terms of the mesh. But in terms of efficiency for what gets stored in system and video ram, the new Colossus is more efficient than the Retail model will ever be.

We have plenty of Staff and Community members to help make sure that any model that get's used strikes the balance (as best as can be determined and on a per-model basis) to make sure that it is as in-game performance friendly as possible. But it is also MUCH easier to start with a higher-than-may-be-necessary detailed model and work it down into being in-game friendly than it is having to up-detail it later. And higher detailing for a release model means cutscene usage, $Tech Model anim remakes, stellar videos or render shots (like concept art, only more tangible) or any number of things.
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Offline sigtau

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Of course when I made that post I was exclusively referring to rendering engine overhead rather than physics calculations (which are a separate medium running on the processor rather than the GPU)--and as many programmers know, well-oiled game logic (such as AI, physics, and the like) are more important than visual assets.
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Offline ION3

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Was my last post noticed by the model author? (1 page back, on the bottom)

 

Offline Sab0o

  • 26
The engine pods on the retail model are less like a rounded cylinder and more ellyptical. You can see that in both the front and top view. I think that adds a lot to it's sleek look.
Maybe a little from the top view. Unfortunately, at this point it would be practically impossible to 'fix' without re-modelling half the pod [with it's greebles on it].

Another detail: I think in the original the holes where the primaries stick out were slimmer.
really? Oh.

One more: You could make one of the primaries on each side upside down.
Actually did that. When I was using the triangle guns. For these, I chose both the same.

 

Offline Nohiki

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Do you work on this and D.h. simultaneously? :)

 

Offline Sab0o

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Fully uv-mapped.
to do:
- add more detail to hi poly model for normal map (normal maps are so cool)
- smooth groups
- uv map guns
- texture
- get some sleep.

I'll probably post some pictures tomorrow if there's something worth showing.

 

Offline Sab0o

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Anyone who would like to help texturing, dowload this. PM me with what you're doing to avoid anyone doing the same thing twice.

edit2:removed link

EDIT: My current progress:


Better than I expected I'd be able to do in a few hours.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2011, 12:09:57 am by Sab0o »

 

Offline Kolgena

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Those textures look... off for some reason. I dunno why. Might just be the lack of the AO bake, or the noisyness of the base white texture.

What happened to smoothing groups? The thing looks like a nicely crafted wooden model that someone forgot to file/sand down.

Your plate separation lines aren't rectangular/bricky enough to look terran. The tops look almost like arctic camo right now.

Also, the red bits look like they should be more peach than what you have now.

But yeah, most of those things seem to be just because the screenshots are very very early WIP. I still like your model very much.

 

Offline Sab0o

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new download link, though I doubt anyone downloaded the old version. Includes model with smoothgroups, my latest texture.

edit: **** this download, PM me if you want to help.

kolgena: yeah... yeah. I'm really not sure how good I can make it alone though.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2011, 02:28:10 pm by Sab0o »

 

Offline Kolgena

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I'd help, but I don't know squat about modeling or texturing.

I know a lot of the big contributors are already working on big projects though, so it might take some time for someone to volunteer to help you out.

 

Offline Sab0o

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After almost giving up due to frustrating things.. I.. finally managed to get some texturing done. 15h, 4096^2. A few errors, nothing too hard to fix.



 

Offline General Battuta

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Wow, this turned out way better than expected! Bring the whole texture up to the quality of the gunpods and it'll look great. Keep it up.