[Crazy_Ivan80]

Originally posted by hotsnoj
blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah

edit: I found something better to say while browsing another forum. That, and the inability to be angry for long

Great joke! Best thing I've heard in days.

  I'll leave that one though. It's just sooo cool

[Fineus]

You seem to have forgotten that the admin are as human as the rest of you, deal with it

Oh, and try and keep it on topic please

[CP5670]

Yes he might of said that, but how does that corallate with your statement about the lord being as intelligent as a human being? Being able to understand how something thinks does not bring your mental capacity down to the creature in question's level.

It indeed does, at a certain point. You see, philosophy is based on a combined synthesis of all ideas of knowledge, and all these parts of knowledge are related at the most fundamental level. (remember what I said earlier? knowledge=wisdom)

I'm not even going to dignify that waste of server space with an answer. The stupidity speaks for itselsf.

I agree with that as well, but I thought I might as well have a little fun there

I think i could prove beyond doubt that i am indeed alive.

Okay, go ahead, lets see the proof. Even Styxx, whose ideas do not entirely coincide with mine, would agree with me here.

Which is why I said a theoretical situation. In a way, I agree that, given enough time, humanity is capable of reaching currently incomprehensible heights of knowledge, etc etc. But that's not the point. The point is a theoretical situation where something beyond the "transfinite" occurs - call it magic if that helps you understand what I'm talking about. It's absolutely inexplecible by the transfinite capabilities of humanity, ok? Remember, this is a theoretical situation.

I am not sure what you are trying to imply here. Something "beyond the transfinite" is just another level of transfinity. You see, you are thinking in terms of finite quantities again; the culmination of knowledge through transfinite amounts of times will indeed allow us to become the gods that we speak of; heck, transfinitely times more powerful.

In spite of all the laws of nature, physics, elementary laws of the universe, Bob's Law of Nosepicking - nothing scientific can explain how that stomach shrunk or that leg grew, m'kay? You still with me in this theoretical situation?

Would you then be able to accept the existance of God?

Nothing scientific today can explain these incidents. However, that cannot be said of the future. For the second time, I point you to the example of the planetary motions I stated earlier; the same thing occurred there when people were trying to explain why the planets moved the way they did. You could attribute "god" to simply the unknown (call it whatever you like), but I will not fall back onto this idea of a superhuman unless all ideas (which are of a transfinite quanitity) have been collected and thoroughly analyzed into mathematical formulas. If they still cannot explain it, then of course, I will agree that this god exists. However, we are talking about transfinite amounts of time here, which would go well beyond even the life of the entire universe, much less that of human beings. Think of humans as an advanced civilization that is contantly evolving, not as insignificant individuals with their silly ambitions.

As Zylon said, ascribing these things to a magical man to make things simple and understandable to the average idiot is the last thing we should fall upon and, given the options we have right now, is the stupidest thing we as a civilization can do.

Again, please quote me, as we both have written so much in this topic that it's very easy to confuse/forget things.

Here you go:

Well then we're all very blessed not to have a God who has Human-like ambitions, aren't we?

Which is precisely the idea I'm trying to put forward to him, when he fails to see Genesis as anything less than the divine truth. By posting them, I'm giving him examples of what else he MUST believe in, should he choose to accept the Bible as the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth and showing him what a mind bogglingly stupid belief he holds

You seem to have forgotten that the admin are as human as the rest of you, deal with it  

Really?!

[Shrike]

Originally posted by CP5670
Just about everyone has a Ph.D. these days; when I refer to the intellectual elite, I mean the true philosophers. (Aristotle, Neitzche, Hegel, etc.) Look at how many of those guys were married.

Nietzche was nuts.  And how do you know Aristotle didn't pop over to the local cathouse for a quick shagging?

[Styxx]

Originally posted by Shrike
Nietzche was nuts.  And how do you know Aristotle didn't pop over to the local cathouse for a quick shagging?

[Zeronet]

Originally posted by CP5670


It indeed does, at a certain point. You see, philosophy is based on a combined synthesis of all ideas of knowledge, and all these parts of knowledge are related at the most fundamental level. (remember what I said earlier? knowledge=wisdom)

 

It indeed doesnt, dont try to infuse other things into what i said in a foolish attempt to disprove what i am saying.

[CP5670]

I agree that Neitzche was a bit crazy with the racial stuff, but he, like all philosophers had some good ideas. Leibniz also had some nice ideas, while others made less sense. All of them can be described in that way.

Actually, the true nut of a philosopher is the notorious Adolf Hitler himself, but even he had one or two sensible ideas, just like the rest of them.

It indeed doesnt, dont try to infuse other things into what i said in a foolish attempt to disprove what i am saying.

So that's the best argument you can think of?

[Crazy_Ivan80]

Originally posted by CP5670
I agree that Neitzche was a bit crazy with the racial stuff, but he, like all philosophers had some good ideas.

Is that about the Ubermensch-Untermensch stuff?

It is my understanding that Nietzche did NOT have race in mind when he said that, but self-empowerment away from religion.

[CP5670]

The things I really like about Neitzche is his extreme hostility towards religion (just like me) and his idea that concepts of morality will fade into uncertainty over time. However, he also said the literary truth was the ultimate truth, and not the scientific and mathematical truth as I have concluded, and at least from what I have heard, he did have some race-based ideas about man and superman, although I could be wrong about that.

[Zeronet]

Originally posted by CP5670
The things I really like about Neitzche is his extreme hostility towards religion (just like me) and his idea that concepts of morality will fade into uncertainty over time. However, he also said the literary truth was the ultimate truth, and not the scientific and mathematical truth as I have concluded, and at least from what I have heard, he did have some race-based ideas, although I could be wrong about that.

I hope for your safety you never get into a conversation with a muslim. Anyway its not surprising someone as misguided as you would of missed religion as well as life.

[CP5670]

I hope for your safety you never get into a conversation with a muslim. Anyway its not surprising someone as misguided as you would of missed religion as well as life.

Once I get my book published, I will be arguing my whole life.

Also, this shows that you do not seem to have the ability to defend your viewpoints; this argument, like some of your previous ones, are completely irrelevant to the subject and simply characterize your opponents with traits that have no pertinence to the subject matter. Also, to end this off, "I am offended!"

[Styxx]

Originally posted by CP5670
Also, to end this off, "I am offended!"

Note: from now on, my participation at this subject will be restricted to carefully placed smilies.

[Zeronet]

Originally posted by CP5670


It indeed does, at a certain point. You see, philosophy is based on a combined synthesis of all ideas of knowledge, and all these parts of knowledge are related at the most fundamental level. (remember what I said earlier? knowledge=wisdom)

Philosphy is what is it. Thus cannot be taken for anything more than the some of its value, it bears no relation to the subject in question, which was related to the intelligence of a certain omnipotent being.


I am not sure what you are trying to imply here. Something "beyond the transfinite" is just another level of transfinity. You see, you are thinking in terms of finite quantities again; the culmination of knowledge through transfinite amounts of times will indeed allow us to become the gods that we speak of; heck, transfinitely times more powerful.

We are finite beings on thus earth, we can only learn so much during a lifetime and our physical existance ends.


Nothing scientific today can explain these incidents. However, that cannot be said of the future. For the second time, I point you to the example of the planetary motions I stated earlier; the same thing occurred there when people were trying to explain why the planets moved the way they did. You could attribute "god" to simply the unknown (call it whatever you like), but I will not fall back onto this idea of a superhuman unless all ideas (which are of a transfinite quanitity) have been collected and thoroughly analyzed into mathematical formulas. If they still cannot explain it, then of course, I will agree that this god exists. However, we are talking about transfinite amounts of time here, which would go well beyond even the life of the entire universe, much less that of human beings. Think of humans as an advanced civilization that is contantly evolving, not as insignificant individuals with their silly ambitions.

As Zylon said, ascribing these things to a magical man to make things simple and understandable to the average idiot is the last thing we should fall upon and, given the options we have right now, is the stupidest thing we as a civilization can do.

The lord is not superhuman for he not of men. The Son of Man was however, the big bang happened, but where did it come from, what started it? You can never prove science, only disprove some parts of it. Thus anything that cannot be disproved could be believed without being labeled as stupid. Really whether what we believe in is true or not doesnt matter. The simple matter is, its something to believe in and we all follow our religion which usually benefits the world, either through us being kind and not breaking the law, to organizations such as Cafod.

 

Also colour is spelt with a U!

[Corsair]

Originally posted by Zeronet
Also colour is spelt with a U!

no! color is spelled without a U!

Hmmmm...this thread is out of control. I can't keep up.

[Kellan]

Good Lord...this is going to take a while...

Firstly, on logic:

Originally posted by Zeronet

I think i could prove beyond doubt that i am indeed alive.

No, you can't. Styxx and CP have explained this in highly technical and correct terms already ( :wink: ) but basically, you can only perceive 'life' in terms of your experience - so you don't know if your life is the same as everyone else's. Who's to say that you're not in some kind of afterlife now, or in a coma dreaming us all up?

In experimental terms and terms of 'fact' you cannot prove anything because you have not been present for all instances of an occurence. Thus you can only show that something is probable.

Originally posted by Zeronet

These days its white people who get all the stick.

You ever think it's because they have a historical legacy of deserving it?[/b] Slavery, Colonialism, exploitation of the Third World, unethical foreign policy...

But I guess I'm just a whining, bleeding heart liberal, self-hating white boy.

Originally posted by Zeronet[/i]

Anyway its not surprising someone as misguided as you would of missed religion as well as life.

[//Judgement]

(and yes, I'm well aware of the ironies of calling someone judgemental, thank you.)

Originally posted by Sandwich[/i]

And as for anyone touching the Jews getting "repaid", so to speak - look at history. Look at all the nations that came and went, steamrolling over the Jewish people en route to world conquest: Babylon, Egypt, Persia, Greece, Rome - their status in modern times is minor at best.

There's one glaring inconsistency in your list there. Germany. I'm sure you'd agree that it's still the economic powerhouse of Europe. Mind you, Hitler was from Austria, a totally insignificant nation. Problem is, it was insignificant before WW2 as well.

And Stryke 9: I am surprised to say that I agree with you on almost every point which you have posted on the last couple of pages.

[Kellan]

Originally posted by Corsair
no! color is spelled without a U!

Hmmmm...this thread is out of control. I can't keep up.

It seems to have been re-energised entirely by CP5670. By changing the whole point of the thread to perceptive reality and using religion as an example, too...

[Sandwich]

Originally posted by CP5670
(remember what I said earlier? knowledge=wisdom)

Religon completely aside (and I'm not even sure how you got to this point, but what the hey), that's wrong. I'm not getting into literal, super-precise usages of words here, but essentially knowledge is the possesion of data. Wisdom is knowing how to use that data in a manner that is effecient and beneficial.

And yes, I know beneficial is a relative term to whom is benefiting, etc etc.

Originally posted by CP5670
I am not sure what you are trying to imply here. Something "beyond the transfinite" is just another level of transfinity. You see, you are thinking in terms of finite quantities again; the culmination of knowledge through transfinite amounts of times will indeed allow us to become the gods that we speak of; heck, transfinitely times more powerful.

Nothing scientific today can explain these incidents. However, that cannot be said of the future. For the second time, I point you to the example of the planetary motions I stated earlier; the same thing occurred there when people were trying to explain why the planets moved the way they did. You could attribute "god" to simply the unknown (call it whatever you like), but I will not fall back onto this idea of a superhuman unless all ideas (which are of a transfinite quanitity) have been collected and thoroughly analyzed into mathematical formulas. If they still cannot explain it, then of course, I will agree that this god exists. However, we are talking about transfinite amounts of time here, which would go well beyond even the life of the entire universe, much less that of human beings. Think of humans as an advanced civilization that is contantly evolving, not as insignificant individuals with their silly ambitions.

Ok, I can see your point quite clearly. And it is a valid point, strictly speaking. But where we differ in opinion is that I believe that God's working of miracles cannot be understood by any means. I don't believe that it is at all possible to reach a point where His ways are understandable by us. I don't believe that such a point exists, and therefore even if we improve transfinitely, we cannot reach a point that doesn't exist.

Anyways, I've another question for you, this one a bit more.... tame, shall we say? What's the difference, if any, between "transfinite" and "infinite"?

Originally posted by CP5670
Here you go:

Originally posted by Sandwich
Well then we're all very blessed not to have a God who has Human-like ambitions, aren't we?

Ahh, much better. Now, I hate to sound like a broken record, but read the post carefully.

Originally posted by Kellan
There's one glaring inconsistency in your list there. Germany. I'm sure you'd agree that it's still the economic powerhouse of Europe. Mind you, Hitler was from Austria, a totally insignificant nation. Problem is, it was insignificant before WW2 as well.

When Job was sent by God to Nineveh to proclaim it's impending destruction, the people repented, and God spared (for the moment) the city.

I know for a fact that Germany has numerous Christians interceeding for thier nation before God. And even secular Germany is by and large apologetic for the Holocaust, even if many of them weren't even born then.

[ZylonBane]

Originally posted by sandwich
In the Old Testament, God required a blood sacrifice once a year to atone for the sins of the people. Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice, atoning for all mankind for all eternity - for those who choose to accept it.

So just to make sure I'm understanding here...

The entire point of religious sacrifice is to demonstrate your fear of a vengeful god by taking something you value, and destroying it (in His name).

So Jesus was an extra-special human sacrifice to God. Two problems here--
1. Jesus was executed, not sacrificed.
2. The whole thing was planned by God anyway.

Since the "sacrifice" was to God, of God, and orchestrated by God, to accomplish an end which He could have achieved by just deciding that Original Sin was forgiven, the entire thing seems like nothing more than an exercise in divine masturbation.

[Stryke 9]

Ssh, Zylon! Critical thought has no place here- believe me, I've made almost that exact argument before.

[Sandwich]

Originally posted by ZylonBane
So just to make sure I'm understanding here...

The entire point of religious sacrifice is to demonstrate your fear of a vengeful god by taking something you value, and destroying it (in His name).

So Jesus was an extra-special human sacrifice to God. Two problems here--
1. Jesus was executed, not sacrificed.
2. The whole thing was planned by God anyway.

Since the "sacrifice" was to God, of God, and orchestrated by God, to accomplish an end which He could have achieved by just deciding that Original Sin was forgiven, the entire thing seems like nothing more than an exercise in divine masturbation.

You probably missed it - I posted earlier in the thread (waaay earlier...) a few verses about Jesus' death being a sacrifice. IIRC it was when we were discussing how the Jews had been blamed for killing Jesus. Read John 10:18 and following.

As for #2 and the following paragraph, I must commend you - very good question/point. I don't claim to have all the answers, but all I know (and the other verses I quoted earlier are the source for this) is that Jesus' self-sacrifice was a fulfillment of prophecy. Which logically is followed by the question of why God had the prophets prophesy those things. I can't answer that one, but then again there's a lot of things that God has allowed or caused throughout history that I, seeing from a human, time-bound perspective, cannot comprehend why He didn't do them in some other way.

Perhaps someone more knowledgable could explain it - I'd guess there's a tie-in with the requirement of sacrifice for atonement, but I'm not familiar enough with that area to argue the point.

And please, let's not get into an endless children's classic - the eternal "Why?" looop. Because you know already what the final answer will end up being: "Because".