[Descenterace]

Well, a lot of people here need to watch the whole series a few more times before they understand what was going on.  I mean, the storyline isn't THAT contorted.  There's blindingly-obvious hints all through it, and yet me, Levyathan and others still have to explain it in cartoon pictures...

[diamondgeezer]

Well I think this sums Revolutions up: taken from an MSN conversation twixt me and my brother

DG says:
but i mean what the **** happened to neo?
DG says:
are we waiting for another film or what?
Jon says:
who knows, who cares

[Grey Wolf]

[announcer voice]Coming soon to a theatre near you: Matrix IV: The Wachowskis vs. Asimov! In the final battle, we will see who's really right about the behavior of robots![/announcer voice]

This has been brought to you by someone who has nothing better to do right now

[Sandwich]

Originally posted by Grey Wolf 2009
...someone who has nothing better to do right now

The Wachowskis, right?

[ZylonBane]

Well, I just got back from the theater. Overall, I found Revolutions much more entertaining than Reloaded. However, in retrospect Revolutions made much less sense than Reloaded.

What happened to the Oracle in the day or so after Neo last saw her?

If the Oracle is almost as big a wheel in the Matrix as the Architect, then why is she slumming around with only one program for protection?

Why is the Trainman such a bloody lunatic? What was up with that "Nobody can help me!" babbling?

How in the hell can Neo blow up Sentinels by just waving his hand in the air? After all the theorizing on this subject, the best they could come up with was "He just can, ok"?

Also, what did Neo do to block all the ballistic projectiles they were lobbing at him?

How can Neo link to the Matrix without a physical connection to it? Oh that's right, "He just can".

The machines have apparently never heard of the Maginot Line.

If Zion is in fact part of the Real Real World, and not a parallel Matrix program for collecting rejects (as some theorized), then why does the Architect need Zion to exist? To machines of his mindset, humans are batteries, period. A human no longer serving that purpose is useless and should be killed immediately.

And again, if Zion is the real world, how was Smith able to download himself into a human brain? That's like trying to play a CD by putting it in a toaster.

Why would Merv want the Oracle's eyes? Since when does a computer program have eyes?

Why do Sentinels suck so much at combat? The kill ratio between humans and machines looked to be about 500:1. Makes me wonder how the machines won the war in the first place. Most of the time the Sentinels seemed more intent on putting on a flying exhibition than actually fighting.

The scene where that girl was running through the crawlspace dodging Sentinel tentacles looked like an upside-down version of the graveyard scene from Army of Darkness.

If EMPs are such bloody powerful weapons against the machines, why isn't there a single one (let alone dozens) in the dock? Oh wait, it would knock down their defenses. Oh wait, it doesn't knock down the defenses on the ships, so why would the dock be any different? Oh wait, why not make EMP weapons with a smaller effective radius?

Since when can Smith fly? He couldn't a few hours ago.

Programs have to be productive members of society or face deletion? Sounds like machine society really sucks.

These two lovey-dovey programs have been talking to the Oracle, and therefore must know roughly what's going down in the Matrix, yet they choose to ship their "daughter" off there anyway?

Why is Smith taking over the Matrix a problem for the machines? The human bodies are still generating power, and as this film went to great lengths to establish, the only way in or out is through the train station. In the real world, this probably means the physical network connections to the Matrix simulators out in the fields are limited and tightly controlled. Just cut them.

On the other hand, apparently you can cut every cable in the breaker room of one of the humans' hovercraft, and it will still run just fine.

I think I'm going to like this movie less and less the more I think about it. Ugh.

PS-- Why are some people so bloody literal-minded when it comes to theorizing? First the "all previous Ones looked exactly like Neo" theory (based on the screens in the Architect room), and now the inane "the Merovingian is a One", and "Smith died because Neo died" theories. It's already been explained why Merv can't be a former One, and the Smiths clearly were able to be destroyed because Smith took over a body linked directly to the machine mainframe. The mainframe was then able to analyze the Smith program (with a little help from the submerged Oracle program), devise an exponentially-propagating anti-Smith virus, and introduce it into the Matrix via Neo's link.

[Kazan]

ZyloneBane - thank you for realizing that last bit - THE MACHINES FSCKING RAN A PROGRAM THROUGH NEO

Some dude was talking to his friends after the movie about that trying to figure it out - and i was like "it's simple, by letting himself be assimilated neo allowed the machines to introduce a countervirus into smith's program" and they were all like "dude! now that makes sense!"

[Dark_4ce]

Yeah I agree with that. Smith in essence returned to the source and got deleted. Neo was just the bait in the end. He only had to figure it out.

[Levyathan]

Originally posted by ZylonBane
Why would Merv want the Oracle's eyes? Since when does a computer program have eyes?

He wanted her sight.

[TrashMan]

Originally posted by ZylonBane
Well, I just got back from the theater. Overall, I found Revolutions much more entertaining than Reloaded. However, in retrospect Revolutions made much less sense than Reloaded.

What happened to the Oracle in the day or so after Neo last saw her?

If the Oracle is almost as big a wheel in the Matrix as the Architect, then why is she slumming around with only one program for protection?

Why is the Trainman such a bloody lunatic? What was up with that "Nobody can help me!" babbling?

How in the hell can Neo blow up Sentinels by just waving his hand in the air? After all the theorizing on this subject, the best they could come up with was "He just can, ok"?

Also, what did Neo do to block all the ballistic projectiles they were lobbing at him?

How can Neo link to the Matrix without a physical connection to it? Oh that's right, "He just can".

The machines have apparently never heard of the Maginot Line.

If Zion is in fact part of the Real Real World, and not a parallel Matrix program for collecting rejects (as some theorized), then why does the Architect need Zion to exist? To machines of his mindset, humans are batteries, period. A human no longer serving that purpose is useless and should be killed immediately.

And again, if Zion is the real world, how was Smith able to download himself into a human brain? That's like trying to play a CD by putting it in a toaster.

Why would Merv want the Oracle's eyes? Since when does a computer program have eyes?

Why do Sentinels suck so much at combat? The kill ratio between humans and machines looked to be about 500:1. Makes me wonder how the machines won the war in the first place. Most of the time the Sentinels seemed more intent on putting on a flying exhibition than actually fighting.

The scene where that girl was running through the crawlspace dodging Sentinel tentacles looked like an upside-down version of the graveyard scene from Army of Darkness.

If EMPs are such bloody powerful weapons against the machines, why isn't there a single one (let alone dozens) in the dock? Oh wait, it would knock down their defenses. Oh wait, it doesn't knock down the defenses on the ships, so why would the dock be any different? Oh wait, why not make EMP weapons with a smaller effective radius?

Since when can Smith fly? He couldn't a few hours ago.

Programs have to be productive members of society or face deletion? Sounds like machine society really sucks.

These two lovey-dovey programs have been talking to the Oracle, and therefore must know roughly what's going down in the Matrix, yet they choose to ship their "daughter" off there anyway?

Why is Smith taking over the Matrix a problem for the machines? The human bodies are still generating power, and as this film went to great lengths to establish, the only way in or out is through the train station. In the real world, this probably means the physical network connections to the Matrix simulators out in the fields are limited and tightly controlled. Just cut them.

On the other hand, apparently you can cut every cable in the breaker room of one of the humans' hovercraft, and it will still run just fine.

I think I'm going to like this movie less and less the more I think about it. Ugh.

PS-- Why are some people so bloody literal-minded when it comes to theorizing? First the "all previous Ones looked exactly like Neo" theory (based on the screens in the Architect room), and now the inane "the Merovingian is a One", and "Smith died because Neo died" theories. It's already been explained why Merv can't be a former One, and the Smiths clearly were able to be destroyed because Smith took over a body linked directly to the machine mainframe. The mainframe was then able to analyze the Smith program (with a little help from the submerged Oracle program), devise an exponentially-propagating anti-Smith virus, and introduce it into the Matrix via Neo's link.

Like I said - CRAP!!!!!

[übermetroid]

Originally posted by ZylonBane
What happened to the Oracle in the day or so after Neo last saw her?

She was killed.  Merv had her taken out.  She then came back, but she had to get a new shell

If the Oracle is almost as big a wheel in the Matrix as the Architect, then why is she slumming around with only one program for protection?

Well, seeing how she can see into the future, she really does not need to have much protection, does she?

Why is the Trainman such a bloody lunatic? What was up with that "Nobody can help me!" babbling?

I have no idea, but he is in ETM.

How in the hell can Neo blow up Sentinels by just waving his hand in the air? After all the theorizing on this subject, the best they could come up with was "He just can, ok"?  Also, what did Neo do to block all the ballistic projectiles they were lobbing at him?

I thought this was explained pretty well.  In Machine land everything is connected through, lets call it the Machines Internet.  Neo is just a hacker on that Internet.  He was able to hack in and have the things self destruct.

How can Neo link to the Matrix without a physical connection to it? Oh that's right, "He just can".

He still has Machine parts in him.  (The plugs and such).  Maybe he also has wireless that no one else has?

The machines have apparently never heard of the Maginot Line.

Whats this?

If Zion is in fact part of the Real Real World, and not a parallel Matrix program for collecting rejects (as some theorized), then why does the Architect need Zion to exist? To machines of his mindset, humans are batteries, period. A human no longer serving that purpose is useless and should be killed immediately.

This was coverend in #2.  Zion exists because of the unbalanced equation that blah, blah, blah.

All tha Machines want is peace.  They don't want a war.  They never did.  The humans started it all.  Maybe the other reason Zion exists is because the Machines wanted to give the humans a chance to start the peace process again.  Which, I might add, Neo was able to do.

And again, if Zion is the real world, how was Smith able to download himself into a human brain? That's like trying to play a CD by putting it in a toaster.

He was able to download himself.  That is was he learned todo.  He is a virus after all.

Why would Merv want the Oracle's eyes? Since when does a computer program have eyes?

Oracle's eyes = the ability to see in to the future.  If you were in power wouldn't you want that ability too?

Why do Sentinels suck so much at combat? The kill ratio between humans and machines looked to be about 500:1. Makes me wonder how the machines won the war in the first place. Most of the time the Sentinels seemed more intent on putting on a flying exhibition than actually fighting.

They must fight like a bunch of bugs.  If you are in a group you are less likely to get hit.  The Machines did win though, and if that is what it takes, do it.

If EMPs are such bloody powerful weapons against the machines, why isn't there a single one (let alone dozens) in the dock? Oh wait, it would knock down their defenses. Oh wait, it doesn't knock down the defenses on the ships, so why would the dock be any different? Oh wait, why not make EMP weapons with a smaller effective radius?

Maybe they dont have EMP's with smaller radius?  Also we are never shown what happenes when one goes off in a ship.  I always assumed that everything would go died.

Since when can Smith fly? He couldn't a few hours ago.

He must have gained power.  I bet he assumed a bird or something and with access to that code learned to fly.

Programs have to be productive members of society or face deletion? Sounds like machine society really sucks.

True that.  But it is Machine thinking if you ask me.

These two lovey-dovey programs have been talking to the Oracle, and therefore must know roughly what's going down in the Matrix, yet they choose to ship their "daughter" off there anyway?

Whats wrong with that?  If she did not stay in the Matrix she would have been deleted.

Why is Smith taking over the Matrix a problem for the machines? The human bodies are still generating power, and as this film went to great lengths to establish, the only way in or out is through the train station. In the real world, this probably means the physical network connections to the Matrix simulators out in the fields are limited and tightly controlled. Just cut them.

The Matrix is connected to all Machines by the power sorce.  If Smith was not destroyed he would have taken over everything.  Neo says so near the end of the movie.  They need the power to live so why would they cut the lines?

On the other hand, apparently you can cut every cable in the breaker room of one of the humans' hovercraft, and it will still run just fine.

Yes, that was stupid.

I think I'm going to like this movie less and less the more I think about it. Ugh.

The more and more I think about it the more it fits together.  

[Levyathan]

Originally posted by ZylonBane
Also, what did Neo do to block all the ballistic projectiles they were lobbing at him?

They exploded before getting dangerously close to the Logos.

Originally posted by ZylonBane
And again, if Zion is the real world, how was Smith able to download himself into a human brain? That's like trying to play a CD by putting it in a toaster.

Why do humans die in the real world when they die in the Matrix?

Originally posted by ZylonBane
Since when can Smith fly? He couldn't a few hours ago.

Neo can fly in the end of the first movie, yet he can't in the beggining.

[TrashMan]

UBER CRAP!

[ZylonBane]

Originally posted by ubermetroid
She was killed.  Merv had her taken out.  She then came back, but she had to get a new shell

That's a logical conclusion (and apparently supported by the game), but it doesn't justify the annoying tapdancing the movie did around what actually happened.

Well, seeing how she can see into the future, she really does not need to have much protection, does she?

My question wasn't so much the degree of protection, as the degree of slumming. She doesn't seem to have nearly the power you'd expect from the co-creator of the Matrix.

I thought this was explained pretty well.  ... He was able to hack in and have the things self destruct.

I could swear I saw big flaming balls of energy being fired. How do you hack a ball of energy?

He still has Machine parts in him.  (The plugs and such).  Maybe he also has wireless that no one else has?

Doubtful. With all the medical scans they ran on him when they first pulled him out, they would have noticed that.

This was coverend in #2.  Zion exists because of the unbalanced equation that blah, blah, blah.

No, the "choice to reject the program" exists because of the unbalanced equation. The people in the Matrix don't know that Zion exists at any level. If someone decides to reject the program, fine. They wake up and get flushed. Zion is superfluous at best, and a nuisance at worst.

Maybe the other reason Zion exists is because the Machines wanted to give the humans a chance to start the peace process again.

Maybe. But the movie doesn't even hint at this.

He was able to download himself.  That is was he learned todo.  He is a virus after all.

He learned to subvert avatar programs in the Matrix simulation. This is a far, far cry from reprogramming yourself from scratch to execute on an utterly alien chunk of hardware (a human brain). Even then, there's little chance the cyberjack would be physically equipped to rewire an entire human brain in an instant. There's absolutely no need for it to connect to anything beyond the central nervous system.

They must fight like a bunch of bugs.

These machines are a hell of a lot smarter than bugs. Yet they flew around in giant swarms either ignoring the defenders, or flying directly into their guns in a convenient column. With the numbers of Sentinels shown, they should have picked that chamber clean in under 5 minutes.

The Matrix is connected to all Machines by the power sorce.  If Smith was not destroyed he would have taken over everything.  Neo says so near the end of the movie.  They need the power to live so why would they cut the lines?

Please attempt to differentiate between a DATA line and a POWER line.

[Levyathan]

Originally posted by ZylonBane
My question wasn't so much the degree of protection, as the degree of slumming. She doesn't seem to have nearly the power you'd expect from the co-creator of the Matrix.

She's not the Merovingian. He's the one who wants to look cool and powerful, remember?

Originally posted by ZylonBane
These machines are a hell of a lot smarter than bugs. Yet they flew around in giant swarms either ignoring the defenders, or flying directly into their guns in a convenient column. With the numbers of Sentinels shown, they should have picked that chamber clean in under 5 minutes.

The main objective was to reach the city. Considering the number of Sentinels that were put down due to attacks targeted at the drill machine, it's possible that they were doing exactly what was supposed to be done.

[ZylonBane]

Originally posted by Levyathan
The main objective was to reach the city. Considering the number of Sentinels that were put down due to attacks targeted at the drill machine, it's possible that they were doing exactly what was supposed to be done.

Don't the machines know that the best defense is a good offense?

[TrashMan]

These machines are a hell of a lot smarter than bugs. Yet they flew around in giant swarms either ignoring the defenders, or flying directly into their guns in a convenient column. With the numbers of Sentinels shown, they should have picked that chamber clean in under 5 minutes.

Have you any idea how powerfull a minigun is. Todays minigun fire at a rate from 6000-24000 bullets a minute!!! (that's 100-400 bullets per second...for a comparison, standard rifles fire 3-4 bullets per sec).
I suppose in the future the miniguns are even more powerfull.
If anything, too many Sentinels survived.
With several hunderds of such guns aimed at the opening - NOTHING SHOULD HAVE SURVIVED AT ALL!!!!

Count...every mech had 2 such miniguns....how many defenders were there? Let's say 200?

In that case the opening was bombarded with  400000 bullets each second!:eek2:

[Knight Templar]

100 APUs. And I guess, but we don't really have a good way to judge how much armour the machines have other than what makes for a cool looking movie..

And I like Levy's idea of how Smith took over in real life. When you die in the matrix, you die because your brain tells your body you should be dead. So in theory, when Smith takes over your body in the matrix, your brain would tell you he should take over in real life. Your brain supplies all of Smith's code, because it know's it from the Matrix. Thus, Smith can take over.

and I don't remember the Trainman from ETM.

[Su-tehp]

I remember the Trainman from Mad Max beyond Thunderdome: he was the airplane pilot guy who stole Max's stuff in the beginning of the movie and whose plane Max used to save the day at the end of the movie.

Max: You. I remember you.
Airplane pilot guy: You do?
Max: Yeah. You have a plane.
Airplane pilot guy: I do?
Max: Yeah. It just might save your life.
Airplane pilot guy: It will?

Mad Max and Airplane pilot guy, Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome

Originally posted by TrashMan
Have you any idea how powerfull a minigun is. Todays minigun fire at a rate from 6000-24000 bullets a minute!!! (that's 100-400 bullets per second...for a comparison, standard rifles fire 3-4 bullets per sec).

I suppose in the future the miniguns are even more powerfull.
If anything, too many Sentinels survived.
With several hunderds of such guns aimed at the opening - NOTHING SHOULD HAVE SURVIVED AT ALL!!!!

Count...every mech had 2 such miniguns....how many defenders were there? Let's say 200?

In that case the opening was bombarded with  400000 bullets each second!:eek2:

Yeah, but you have to remember that the metal that the Sentinels were forged with was forged at least 600 years in the future (assuming that each iteration of Zion lasted 100 years. With smelting technology that is 600 years ahead of what we have now, isn't it safe to assume that the Machines are capable of forging metal alloys many times tougher than today's steel?

Originally posted by ZylonBane
The machines have apparently never heard of the Maginot Line.

I had to respond to this, since no one else did and I happen to know what the Maginot Line is.

Ok, set the History Channel to just before World War II, when France was making fortifications to its border with Germany. The Maginot Line was a big wall fortification made by the French (in the Ardennes Forest, IIRC) designed to keep the Germans out of France. The only problem was that the Maginot Line didn't cover the entire border with Germany; it only went maybe 50 miles (I'm not sure of the exact length) along the border. The French were so certain that the Germans would advance through the Ardennes Forest (because that was what the Germans had done in World War I) that the French saw no need to extend the Line further along their border. So what happened when WWII started? You guessed it, kids, the Germans simply drove their tanks and troops through the part of the French-German border that wasn't fortified by the Maginot Line at all! In essence, the French built a big-ass wall but the Germans simply drove right around it and got halfway to Paris before the shooting even started!

With strategic stupidity like this, is it any wonder the French never won a war?

As for the Maginot Line theory being applied to the Matrix movies, it seems to me that the Machines actually did know about the Maginot Line. Remember, the Zionites only guarded the tunnel entrances, not their cave walls. The Zionites never anticipated the Machines drilling though the ground from above; they thought the Machines would try to use the tunnels instead. So the Machines did exactly what the Germans did: they advanced through an unanticipated and unprotected route.

Apparently, what ZylonBane meant is that it was the Zionites who never heard of the Maginot Line. But considering that the Zionites lost of historical records during the war with the Machines (they didn't even know who started the war, for crissakes'; Morpheus even said that in Matrix I), that's probably not surprising.

[TrashMan]

So? They have allso better ammo....
Ammo development is allways infront of shielding...And the Sentinels got destroyed by the bullets in the movie...

[ZylonBane]

Originally posted by Knight Templar
So in theory, when Smith takes over your body in the matrix, your brain would tell you he should take over in real life. Your brain supplies all of Smith's code, because it know's it from the Matrix.

No human except Neo knows the code of an Agent. All anyone else knows is what they've observed.

Are you one of those people who thinks humans in the Matrix have actually had their consciousness uploaded as a computer simulation?

Originally posted by Su-tehp
Apparently, what ZylonBane meant is that it was the Zionites who never heard of the Maginot Line.

Ummm.... no. I meant what I said. If you don't see the parallel in Neo's inflitration of the machine city, then I can't help you.

Originally posted by TrashMan
Sentinels got destroyed by the bullets in the movie...

The Sentinels in Revolutions could be destroyed with harsh language. Anyway, some review I read compared their flight patterns with the bonus stages in Galaga. That guy got it right.  By sticking to huge swarms, they gave the defenders easy targets. They should have broken up, filling the dome with a uniform cloud of Sentinels. Then they could have mauled each defender from all sides at once, with perfect coordination.