[KappaWing]

GTVA high command needs to try some of this stuff.



But seriously, I side with the strongest here. Its pointless to argue "NTF this, GTVA that, Vasudans blahblah" when the Shivans could just come in and pwn all. Just look at their Flagship Destroyer, the Ravana. With all destroyers in optimum positions (Ravana facing forward, Orion facing Starboard, Hoover facing forward at an angle) the Ravana wins. Sure its vulnerable from the back, but Shivans have crazy numbers. They could just warp in another Ravana to pwn whatever ship is ass raping the first Ravana. The Rakshasha is the best anti capship cruiser hands down, the Lilith is tough as nails, the Sathanas can easily pwn a Coli (again, both in optimal positions), and their bombers (especially Nephilim and Seraphim) have the firepower of a small cruiser. Not to mention the Mara, and the Dragon, with manuverablility only comparable to the GVF Seraphis.

[Centrixo]

yes the shivans can destroy the NTF and GTVA easy, back ot. this is about the NTF v GTVA not GTVA v Shivans.

[KappaWing]

Well it was in the poll. 

 

[Centrixo]

then someone made a mistake

[AlphaOne]

Well swarming heavyli defended nodes seems to work very well for the shivans. But then againg theyr ships are designed for this kind of situations.

The only other destroyer that I see in the game besides the shivan ones that has a decent forward firepower i believe is the Hatshepsut. That thing has both forward and side mounted heavy beam cannons. It has more hp then any other destroyer in the game as far as I know. Combine that with a few wings of foghters and bommbers and even though a node defence could be smashed through. however there is the political factor involved.

I think we all know that when politicians get involved in war the s**t hit's the fan an it is very posible that an all mighty army can lose a war it should have won easily.

Oh here is a quaestion: Wouldnt it of been better if the Vasudans did most of the fighting ?

I mean this way they would get a sort of payback for the NTF crimes. Also the terrans would be heavyli involved in the war as well but with more presence for the vasudan warships. Couple this with a strong propaganda campaign against the NTF and who knows they could of done better in the war.

[aldo_14]

Well swarming heavyli defended nodes seems to work very well for the shivans. But then againg theyr ships are designed for this kind of situations.

The only other destroyer that I see in the game besides the shivan ones that has a decent forward firepower i believe is the Hatshepsut. That thing has both forward and side mounted heavy beam cannons. It has more hp then any other destroyer in the game as far as I know. Combine that with a few wings of foghters and bommbers and even though a node defence could be smashed through. however there is the political factor involved.

I think we all know that when politicians get involved in war the s**t hit's the fan an it is very posible that an all mighty army can lose a war it should have won easily.

Oh here is a quaestion: Wouldnt it of been better if the Vasudans did most of the fighting ?

I mean this way they would get a sort of payback for the NTF crimes. Also the terrans would be heavyli involved in the war as well but with more presence for the vasudan warships. Couple this with a strong propaganda campaign against the NTF and who knows they could of done better in the war.

The Shivans have, from our perspective, superior technology (even if it's not reflected in gameplay, it is in the various briefings and descriptions) and - crucially - near infinite resources.  Moreso, the Shivans don't seem to have a political leadership that'd sue for peace.

Politicians are always involved in war; they're the ones who usually start it and dictate what constitutes a victory.  Bosch may have been the leader of the NTF, but even he would have a cadre of civillian politicians, if only to keep the populace of occupied/defected Terran colonies happy (Vasudan colonies, of course, being wiped out or purged).  And it doesn't require politicians to see a theoretically stronger army lose; just look at the Persian invasion of Greece and the famous battle of Thermopylae (where 300 Spartans and a few thousand -at most - allied troops entrenched in a narrow pass held off a Persian army of over 200,000, inflicting at least 100,000 casualties - and only lost because of a betrayal).

You're assuming the Vasudans didn't engage in most of the fighting - which to me is a rather dodgy assumption, given that Bosch used the NTF as a cover for recovering artifacts in Vasudan space.  As a pilot in the Terran side of the GTVA, don't you think it'd be inevitable that you'd see the Terran side of the war, and indeed of command decisions and output?

(albeit also bear in mind a war predominantly led by Vasudan forces could enhance the polarisation between Terran and Vasudan that the NTFs' xenophobic rebellion created)
]

[[DW]-Hunter]

Politicians are always involved in war; they're the ones who usually start it and dictate what constitutes a victory.  Bosch may have been the leader of the NTF, but even he would have a cadre of civillian politicians, if only to keep the populace of occupied/defected Terran colonies happy (Vasudan colonies, of course, being wiped out or purged).  And it doesn't require politicians to see a theoretically stronger army lose; just look at the Persian invasion of Greece and the famous battle of Thermopylae (where 300 Spartans and a few thousand -at most - allied troops entrenched in a narrow pass held off a Persian army of over 200,000, inflicting at least 100,000 casualties - and only lost because of a betrayal).

That is one of the things im trying to point out, the NTF had plenty of ships and fighters to wipe out the GTVA if real tactics were used. Numbers dont mean anything when it comes to good tactics. Create a plan then execute is all thats needed. The NTF didn't have a leader really, he was so focused on talking to the shivans rather then concentrating on the rebelion. But the whole campaign leaves as at a hinge really. The destruction of the NTF does NOT mean that there are still some out there in the boarder worlds building up their forces again, which is basicly what my campaign is about.

[AlphaOne]

WEll about the battler between the persioans and the greek army and allied forces as far as i can remember the site was chosen becasuse it could channel the huge persian army into well planned killing field. Also the greek army had something that the persians did not have and that is the abilaty to keep the persians at a distance with theyr long spears. In Fs you do not have such abilaty. I mean to keep the enemy at bay so that it can not inflict any significant damage upon you.

The bottom line is that the war could of been won even without the Collie if the GTVA could afford the losses.

Also the node blocade tactic was used by the GTVA as well but to no such excelent outcome.

Also i believe that one of teh reasons the NTF managed to hold out during node blocades was in fact because they wre using a superior ships to blocade the node. Which one? The Orion of course. I mean the GTVA has the new Hecate which kind of suck when it comes to sheer beam firepower.

I was thinking if the NTF could of been starved to death. I mean how much supllies can you have n just 3 sistems? They must of suffered amunitions paere parts food etc shortages do to the GTVA's constant attaks on theyr core sistems.

But i do understand how the GTVA was slowly gooing towards a stalemate with the NTF. I just have a very hard time grasping the whole thing.

[aldo_14]

WEll about the battler between the persioans and the greek army and allied forces as far as i can remember the site was chosen becasuse it could channel the huge persian army into well planned killing field. Also the greek army had something that the persians did not have and that is the abilaty to keep the persians at a distance with theyr long spears. In Fs you do not have such abilaty. I mean to keep the enemy at bay so that it can not inflict any significant damage upon you.

Actually, that's wrong on a number of levels.  The first thing is that the Persians did have long range weaponry - specifically archers (indeed, it was archers who killed the Spartans, although only after the Persians had been told of the back 'door' to the Greek position)  Whilst the Greeks had long spears, they also had tactical superiority and better organisation (as well as heavier armour).  In short, the Thermopylae example is not one of having long range weapons, but of tactical superiority - being able to pick and choose a battle in a choke point, where the enemies numerical advantage is negated by forcing them into a position where they can only attack in managable numbers.  That's how you 'keep the enemy at bay' in FS2 (at least, as far as the NTF is concerned) - you force them to attack fortified blockade points on either side of a jump node.  (Because let's not forget that open space is very open, thanks to intrasystem jumps)

The bottom line is that the war could of been won even without the Collie if the GTVA could afford the losses.

Which it couldn't afford.  Which makes that a rather vapid statement, don't you think?  Any war can be won by a side that can 'afford the losses'.

Also the node blocade tactic was used by the GTVA as well but to no such excelent outcome.

Debatable; the NTF is more or less decimated when it goes on the offensive and faces those blockades - bear in mind that the GTVA was the one trying to recapture territory, all the NTF needed to do (aside from Boschs' real agenda) was hold their territory long enough, and inflict enough casualties, to force the GTVA to sue for peace.

Also i believe that one of teh reasons the NTF managed to hold out during node blocades was in fact because they wre using a superior ships to blocade the node. Which one? The Orion of course. I mean the GTVA has the new Hecate which kind of suck when it comes to sheer beam firepower.

Well, anything with reasonable parity of force is sufficient to blockade a node; the NTF already had a clear tactical advantage, regardless of weaponry.

I was thinking if the NTF could of been starved to death. I mean how much supllies can you have n just 3 sistems? They must of suffered amunitions paere parts food etc shortages do to the GTVA's constant attaks on theyr core sistems.

*looks at earth*

Hmm, quite a lot.  And the GTVA, at least during the time of FS2, was not attacking the core NTF systems.  Check the very first (non-training) briefing;

Integral to NTF ideology is Bosch's vision of Neo-Terra, a utopian society where the lost grandeur of Earth will be restored. Bosch and his followers oppose any alliance with the Vasudans as a threat to the future of the human race.

The rebels are entrenched in Polaris, Regulus, and Sirius. But before we hit these strongholds, we must secure Epsilon Pegasi, Alpha Centauri, and Deneb. These contested systems are now the focal point of allied operations.

[[DW]-Hunter]

But i do understand how the GTVA was slowly gooing towards a stalemate with the NTF. I just have a very hard time grasping the whole thing.

They were going twords a stalemate for sure, if it wasnt for the colossus, I'm pretty sure the GTVA would end up giving up and handing those systems to the NTF because they didn't want to lose what was left of their forces. Sure the GTVA could wipe them out without the colossus, but then again, the NTF had those suicidal tactics which gave them that disadvantage that made it posible for the GTVA to wipe them out so quickly. I just think a NTF campaign after capella would be quite different, which is one of the reasons why I am making one. I dont feel like revealing the story so you will just have to wait and see what its like

[AlphaOne]

Now yove done it Hunter. Now il keep thinking what that campaign of yours actualy involves. Is there any way i can.....bribe you into giving more details??

[Agent_Koopa]

Of course, anyone who suggests 'swarm' as a military tactic against an entrenched opponent controlling chokepoints, is an idiot.   Especially in a war where public opinion is key; the more GTVA dead, the more inclined parliament is to negotiate a ceasefire - ala Vietnam.

In FreeSpace 2, the only way to entrench yourself is back yourself up with lots of other capships. If several warships (I'm thinking about two Orions with cruiser escort, though that would be incredibly expensive) came through a node, with a fighter/bomber complement, they would more than likely be able to take out everything around it at once, thanks to the element of surprise. Mjolnirs were, let's not forget, not available to the NTF. Whether you could then survive against a massive counterstrike is another debate entirely. If used correctly, and FS nodes never are, you could easily organize the warships in the jump corridor just before jumping out of the node, resulting in a larger force faster, instead of just sending in a ship whenever it's ready.

[[DW]-Hunter]

Now yove done it Hunter. Now il keep thinking what that campaign of yours actualy involves. Is there any way i can.....bribe you into giving more details??

I only reveal the story to those who participate into making the mod. We should have it done by summer time, maybe even earlier. But don't worry, you WONT be disappointed!!!

[TrashMan]

Actualy the  days of the NTF were numbered even as you enter the scene. I mean You have like 4 fleets against what 18 or 20? No matter how you look at it the NTF days were numbered. Even if the GTVA sustained a large amount of damage at the hands of the NTF it was nothing compared to the losses of the NTF.

Why beacuse the GTVA had reserves but the NTF on the other hand felt the loss of every single squadron corvette and destroyer.

The Collie just speeded up the death of the NTF. Oh and le us not forget that it was the GTVA Command that alowed Bosch to survive for so long in the first place. They wahted to get theyr greedy little hands on the Iceni and the ETAK. They just could not do that until they were absolutely certain Bosch actualy finished constructing it.

This reminds me of a great movie quote:

"Send out the archers..."
"But Sir, we'll hit our won troops!"
"So? We have reserves, they don't... Fire."

or something like that...

[Sarafan]

This reminds me of a great movie quote:

"Send out the archers..."
"But Sir, we'll hit our won troops!"
"So? We have reserves, they don't... Fire."

or something like that...

Wich movie is that?

[aldo_14]

Of course, anyone who suggests 'swarm' as a military tactic against an entrenched opponent controlling chokepoints, is an idiot.   Especially in a war where public opinion is key; the more GTVA dead, the more inclined parliament is to negotiate a ceasefire - ala Vietnam.

In FreeSpace 2, the only way to entrench yourself is back yourself up with lots of other capships. If several warships (I'm thinking about two Orions with cruiser escort, though that would be incredibly expensive) came through a node, with a fighter/bomber complement, they would more than likely be able to take out everything around it at once, thanks to the element of surprise. Mjolnirs were, let's not forget, not available to the NTF. Whether you could then survive against a massive counterstrike is another debate entirely. If used correctly, and FS nodes never are, you could easily organize the warships in the jump corridor just before jumping out of the node, resulting in a larger force faster, instead of just sending in a ship whenever it's ready.

There's a number of assumptions there, though; firstly whether it's possible to synch up jumps in such a way (the haste shown at the end of FS1 indicates it's no trivial matter to 'share' a jump corridor with another ship), secondly it's assuming there aren't things like mines or heavy defense emplacements we've not seen (admittedly, it is a fair assumption - you'd expect to see them, after all), thirdly it's assuming blockades only take place on one side (I believe there are a number of cbs in the main campaign that have the GTVA defending the node from the 'entry' side, presumably for the reason of preventing such an organized attack), fourthly it's possible (if not probable) that the NTF could bring to bear sufficient firepower by way of cruisers and corvettes (to support their bombers and destroyers), and fifthly the NTF would expect and defend against any such attack. 

Also, a blockade would not necessarily need to destroy an attacker, but merely damage it in such a way as to force retreat - for example, removing those 2 destroyers would force the cruisers to withdraw due to lack of fighter cover.  After all, I'd wager a blockade 'run' wouldn't just need to penetrate, but to destroy all opposition and secure the node - and do so whilst other enemy ships were reinforcing the blockade (I doubt any blockade would just be a single line).

[Centrixo]

'you take away the enemies hand and they cant push that button', quoted from somewhere.

[Trivial Psychic]

'you take away the enemies hand and they cant push that button', quoted from somewhere.

Starship Troopers

[Agent_Koopa]

There's a number of assumptions there, though; firstly whether it's possible to synch up jumps in such a way (the haste shown at the end of FS1 indicates it's no trivial matter to 'share' a jump corridor with another ship), secondly it's assuming there aren't things like mines or heavy defense emplacements we've not seen (admittedly, it is a fair assumption - you'd expect to see them, after all), thirdly it's assuming blockades only take place on one side (I believe there are a number of cbs in the main campaign that have the GTVA defending the node from the 'entry' side, presumably for the reason of preventing such an organized attack), fourthly it's possible (if not probable) that the NTF could bring to bear sufficient firepower by way of cruisers and corvettes (to support their bombers and destroyers), and fifthly the NTF would expect and defend against any such attack. 

Also, a blockade would not necessarily need to destroy an attacker, but merely damage it in such a way as to force retreat - for example, removing those 2 destroyers would force the cruisers to withdraw due to lack of fighter cover.  After all, I'd wager a blockade 'run' wouldn't just need to penetrate, but to destroy all opposition and secure the node - and do so whilst other enemy ships were reinforcing the blockade (I doubt any blockade would just be a single line).

You make good points, and I only just realized the difficulty of lining up ships in a corridor. Still, you can receive messages from Command in a subspace corridor, so ship-to-ship communications, including co-ordinates, should be able to cross whatever dimensions prevent the two from seeing or touching each other in subspace, if only by being routed through Command. In this way, you could enter formation without having to use tracking technology, which, by the way, may very well be easy and fast to use by now. The haste in FS1 came from the late discovery of the technology and the race to implement it.

The GTVA would quite obviously take this side of the node first, assuming it's not heavily defended. Thusly 2 (undamaged, which is a bit stretching it,) Orions, despite the huge expense, could very well take out whatever the NTF had on their side with ease, which could be Orions, it could be corvettes, it could be cruisers, anything. It isn't often we see 2 friendly Orions together at once (read: massive amounts of money). For example; Allied force jumps in, NTF is surprised and opens fire with, say, Orion, Aeolus cruiser, and Fenris cruiser. While Allied Orions vaporise NTD Reliance/Resistance/Revulsion, the NTD Triumphant/Tedious/Truant warps in to reinforce the blockade. The bombers, guided by the impenetrable armour that is Alpha 1, pound it and the cruisers. The Orions are moderately damaged, and are reinforced by the Aquitaine, Alpha 1 gets promoted, and the day is saved. Of course, there are many other ways this battle could go.

  The NTF is a much smaller entity than the GTVA, and has nowhere near their resources. I doubt they would send an armada to fend off GTVA attack, not unless they were pushed back to their core systems, and even then, in FreeSpace, we never see a battle where capship after capship on both sides get pulverized and new ones taking their place. One side always retreats, even though one location in space provides no strategic advantage to another.

[aldo_14]

The NTF might be smaller, but it has less ground to cover.  And in FS we never really see a blockade run, only the consequences.